Vincent Van Moorlehem vs Veil

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This interaction just feels awful to play against. Here I'm using Shaping Nature to veil, which is supposed to be a counter to poison and I get punished for it. You have important cards like Fallen Knight getting one shot just for existing. How is this fair at all?

Vinnie is one of the biggest game changers imo, makes me curse almsot every time he's played :D

While I understand he wipes Veil as a status, I do not really like that he can target units with either Bleed or Vitality.
 
There is one NG card (Vincent) that significantly benefits from enemies with veil, there are nearly a dozen (Collar, Letho, Aukes, Alba Cavalry, Hunters, Vattier, Vanhemar, Arbalest, Ball, Cupbearer, Fangs) rendered virtually ineffective by it. I think that is a fair trade off. Veil is a wonderful counter to the excesses of poison, bleeding, NG locks, etc. and as such is a useful status; it should not be considered immunity to an entire faction.

There may be validity in claiming Vincent should have a lower value body (in fact, I believe in general cards with a powerful effect should rarely if ever have power above 3). But that should not be based upon their possible return if an opponent sets up ideal situations for the card; it should be based upon the card’s average impact upon a variety of matchups. If no 11 provision card were ever allowed to play for more than 12 points, Gwent would be a boring game indeed.

Note: I am generally not an NG player; I do not even own Vincent; and I find 11 NG features absolutely atrocious (Ball, Vattier, Skellen, Letho, Yenvo, Cahir, Assire, Cupbearer, Amnesty, the Lockdown Leader ability, and the Enslave leader ability) — Vincent is not among them.
 
While I understand he wipes Veil as a status, I do not really like that he can target units with either Bleed or Vitality.
To be honest Vince targeting bleeding units feels actually a lot more fitting he's a Vampire after all, so I guess I would be fine if they change Vince to something like destroy a bleeding unit and boost self by it's power(or maybe just the base power not sure depends on the Provision cost they would give him in that case).

I always kind of wondered anyways why those Nilfgaardian Vamps seem to like poison so much, wouldn't that poison ruin the blood of their Victims?
 
I always kind of wondered anyways why those Nilfgaardian Vamps seem to like poison so much, wouldn't that poison ruin the blood of their Victims?
Legend has it that Vamps eat snake-stomach because it contains immun cells that inhibit the aroma. Worth mentioning, poisoned blood isn’t fluid, which makes it easy to sell on the black market: I recently walked through the streets of Beauclair at night and suddenly heard a guy whispering: “Ey, you! Wanna buy some chewing gum?”
 
You're right - bleeding makes sense.

Somehow I find it appaling when he destroys vitality. This is like "good" not "evil" status. Reminds me of Shields too...
 
To be honest Vince targeting bleeding units feels actually a lot more fitting he's a Vampire after all, so I guess I would be fine if they change Vince to something like destroy a bleeding unit and boost self by it's power(or maybe just the base power not sure depends on the Provision cost they would give him in that case).

I always kind of wondered anyways why those Nilfgaardian Vamps seem to like poison so much, wouldn't that poison ruin the blood of their Victims?

I think that's a decent idea but then NG will need more bleeding options. Right now they have...Hunters...and if you're using a Hunter for the bleed effect, that's usually not a good sign.
 
If your opponent uses an 11 provision gold card to counter your 6 provision copper, you should feel good about the exchange, not complain about it!

Vincent Van Moorlehem is very powerful in certain situations; it’s user pays for that potential.

That Vincent is a 5 point body and the removal of not only the 6 provision buff but also whatever unit was important enough that the Scoiatel player was trying to protect it. So the Vincent is gaining 11 points in value + the point value of the body or engine potential of the removal target. Most removals don’t even break even on provisions. In what world is that a favorable exchange for the Scoiatel player? It’s like you don’t even play this game.
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I've taken a break from the forum for about a month but I see that the same old Nilfgaard themed salt mines are still active lmao, even with Skellige completely dominating the meta.

Yeah Vincent can be strong. Yeah he's expensive. The problem is Scoia'tael and Syndicate are too weak with too few engines, not that Vincent who sometimes has to target your own 4 power spy is unbalanced.

I’m not saying Vincent is unbalanced but between all the low costs locks, poisons, bleeds, doomifiers, and now a card that can give any enemy unit spying status, a bricked Vincent is on you.
 
I’m not saying Vincent is unbalanced but between all the low costs locks, poisons, bleeds, doomifiers, and now a card that can give any enemy unit spying status, a bricked Vincent is on you.
So using 2 gold cards worth 18 provision to take out an overgrown bronze engine is too good for you?
Nilfgaard is a control class, that's why it lacks many strengths other classes possess (it has 48% win rate right now).
This forum needs to learn how to deal with it.
 
If all you're gonna do is post (flame)baim something intended to ridicule others, or anything of the sort, your post will be deleted. This thread has been subject to so much moderation that Warns will start to go out next. Several posts deleted.

Consider yourselves warned.

One more post sneaked in, presumably due to this not having been present yet.
 
So using 2 gold cards worth 18 provision to take out an overgrown bronze engine is too good for you?
Nilfgaard is a control class, that's why it lacks many strengths other classes possess (it has 48% win rate right now).
This forum needs to learn how to deal with it.

I think the issue here is that people aren't really considering the deck building implications, they see an engine being killed by a 5 point card but it's a lot more complex than just that.

Each leader has provisional allowance, Vincent is not only a gold card but is 11 provision - and outside of using Assire to put Vincent back in the deck, there is literally no way to play Vincent a 2nd time.

So that 11 provision and a Vincent usage on an engine often times, breaks even for value with few instances of Vincent being so strong in provision vs point efficiency that he swings for more than 15 points, including his own body - and almost always with a provision deficit.

It's not the points which matter here, it's how much provision does their leader ability give them, and what that means for both players.

In essence, if you have to use a gold card to kill a bronze card, with few exceptions, it's not a fantastic value play because you're using good stuff to take out less good stuff, which means in theory they'll have more good stuff in their deck than you will.

That's where I think people have messed up, they're looking at the front-loaded aspect of play and not considering what that means for the cards still in deck or hand.
 
Vincent is not only a gold card but is 11 provision - and outside of using Assire to put Vincent back in the deck, there is literally no way to play Vincent a 2nd time.
Assire is in no way the only or even the best way to replay a Nilfgaard unit. The Strategic Withdrawal leader ability is a far better option, and I'm honestly a little surprised that I haven't seen more people try this combo; it's quite strong.
 
Assire is in no way the only or even the best way to replay a Nilfgaard unit. The Strategic Withdrawal leader ability is a far better option, and I'm honestly a little surprised that I haven't seen more people try this combo; it's quite strong.

Yeah, so far it's been everything but. Probably because it's low tempo? I mean, putting cards back in your deck, while great can backfire.
 
The basic argument of this thread as I understand it is that the interaction between Vincent and veiled units makes Vincent overpowered. Some relatively simple analysis clearly shows this argument is invalid.

I have simply looked at the net effect if Vincent is played immediately after each of the 22 veiled units. In one case, the player of Vincent clearly trades up, in 11 cases the player of Vincent clearly trades down, and the remaining 10 are relatively equal. This is absolutely not the marking of an overpowered card.

My calculations are based upon certain assumptions: that evolving leaders are played round 2 or later, that a point of provision is worth between 1 and 1.5 strength on the board, that tempo is disregarded, and that veiled cards with orders will have no opportunity to use them (e.g. no zeal).

Vincent, costs 11 provisions, and will, after use, leave 5 strength on the board.

When played vs. Auberon, the opponent for 11 provisions, will have created and played a random copper wild hunt unit. There are 3 such cards at 4 provisions and 5 such cards at 5 provisions. In almost every case, the wild hunt unit will play for more value than Vincent’s 5 point body, while net provisions are equal — a trade down for Vincent.

Harold costs 11 provisions and plays a bronze warrior from the graveyard. The drawn warrior will almost certainly be worth more than a 5 point body — a trade down for Vincent.

Jacques costs 11 provisions and summons 6 strength in tokens, one mor point than Vincent — another trade down for Vincent.

Viraxas costs 11 and can be destroyed before getting an order off. This is the one clear trade up for Vincent.

Usurper generates 6 points in tokens (which likely trigger other boosts), while costing 11 provisions — a clear trade down for Vincent.

Eithne, for 11 provisions, will generate two tokens for a total of 4 points, though it is likely these tokens will be able to generate additional points. I will call this one approximately even.

Magic Mirror plays for 11 provisions and will transform one card into a random gold card before being destroyed. There is too much randomness to easily attach a value here. On average this feels slightly advantageous to Vincent, but is close enough I would call iteven.

Herkja, Egmund, and Dunca all cost 7 provisions and will generate one additional value before being destroyed. Thus Vincent gains 4 points of value for 4 provisions, probably a bad value, but close enough I will call it even.

Phantom, Roderick, and Urcheon also cost 7 but will be destroyed without effect on other units. Thus the player of Vincent gains 5 strength on the board for 4 extra provisions spent. I would consider this even.

Marlene and Fallen Knight cost 6 provisions and will be destroyed without further benefit. For 5 extra provisions, Vincent generates 5 value — not good, but close enough I would call it even.

Scout and City Guard cost 5 provision and would be destroyed. Spending 6 extra provisions for a 5 point body feels like a trade down to me.

Torturer costs 5 provisions and gives a unit spying — a definite trade down for Vincent.

Duen Cabral is even worse for Vincent, costing only 5 and inflicting 2 points damage, giving Vincent a net 3 points for 6 provisions — a substantial trade down for Vincent.

Aen Elle, Invader, and Fortune Teller only cost 4 provisions and clearly represent trades down for Vincent.
In conclusion, Vincent might be aggravating; he’s not overpowered.
 
Instead of compairing him to other cards with other designs, you should look at him for what he is: single target removal attached to a body.

other options would be:

Neutral:
Villentretenmerth, Maraal and One-Eyed Betsy

Monster:
none (dmg crone?)

NR:
Philippa, Anseis

ST:
Forest Protector, Milean

SK:
Tyrggvi, Hjalmar, skjordal, vabjorn

SY:
Philippa, Moreelse, Graden

So if you compaire him with other options in that category, for me he clearly is the strongest option.

Vincent is efficient removal with a low chance to brick and auto incluide in any serious control NG deck.

Usually removal options attached to a body either have a great chance to not gain any value, or are cost inefficient. In the past removal options that grant more points of value than they cost provision have repeatedly been nerved. Especially if they can remove engines that have been buffed above 5 to be protected.

Vincent checks all these boxes, so he deserves to be nerfed in some kind of way. SK has some close contenders though.. then NR and SY and ST (has poison) and MO all the way at the end.
 
[...]

Instead of compairing him to other cards with other designs, you should look at him for what he is: single target removal attached to a body.

other options would be:

Neutral:
Villentretenmerth, Maraal and One-Eyed Betsy

Monster:
none (dmg crone?)

NR:
Philippa, Anseis

ST:
Forest Protector, Milean

SK:
Tyrggvi, Hjalmar, skjordal, vabjorn

SY:
Philippa, Moreelse, Graden

So if you compaire him with other options in that category, for me he clearly is the strongest option.

Vincent is efficient removal with a low chance to brick and auto incluide in any serious control NG deck.

Usually removal options attached to a body either have a great chance to not gain any value, or are cost inefficient. In the past removal options that grant more points of value than they cost provision have repeatedly been nerved. Especially if they can remove engines that have been buffed above 5 to be protected.

Vincent checks all these boxes, so he deserves to be nerfed in some kind of way. SK has some close contenders though.. then NR and SY and ST (has poison) and MO all the way at the end.
What the hell dude... You can't simply compare a control faction's removal card to other factions that have MANY strengths - to do so is intellectually dishonest.
 
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so what you are saying is that NG should have overpowered removal options because its their faction identity?

CDPR is not balancing around "unique" mechanics since homecoming.. every faction has a bit of everything. some of NGs engines are as strong as NR's and thats a good thing. yeah their behaviour is slightly diffrent, but in the end its still engines vs control vs pointslam. thats the same for every faction. and if that trinity is out of balance for one faction, it seriously makes that deck unfun to play against for all other factions because you are no longer able to counterplay the overpowered mechanic.

thats the case with NG/SK's removel and vincent in this particular case. It was the reason why they nerved NR's charge engines into the ground, because they could just run out of control and obliterate everything - which is only a fun interaction for the one playing that deck.

and your profil picture screams that you are biased..
 
so what you are saying is that NG should have overpowered removal options because its their faction identity?

CDPR is not balancing around "unique" mechanics since homecoming.. every faction has a bit of everything. some of NGs engines are as strong as NR's and thats a good thing. yeah their behaviour is slightly diffrent, but in the end its still engines vs control vs pointslam. thats the same for every faction. and if that trinity is out of balance for one faction, it seriously makes that deck unfun to play against for all other factions because you are no longer able to counterplay the overpowered mechanic.

thats the case with NG/SK's removel and vincent in this particular case. It was the reason why they nerved NR's charge engines into the ground, because they could just run out of control and obliterate everything - which is only a fun interaction for the one playing that deck.

and your profil picture screams that you are biased..

Issue is, Vincent isn't op. Most of the time he trades down provision wise.
I mean, I could run several other things than Vincent and could get even bigger point swings like Yrden. The only thing Vincent has going for him that's undisuptably good is he's anti meta in the sense that everyone is running Veil so he has a target rich environment to go off in.

Once people calm down with Veil, Vincent will be less of an issue.
 
but why should poeple calm down with veil? poison is still played a lot. He was also played in any NG deck before veil even was a thing.

I am not saying he needs a big nerf, but just a smal utility adjustment. my idea would be to remove the aristocrat, but that may be to harsh. (only target neg. status has been sugested a lot here)

I think if you play Ball, you should not be incentivized to also play Vincent, since you already have poison as your removal option.
 
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