Was Overwatch nerfed or was it always like this..?

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So, was looking at Overwatch vs a rando-drop Nekomata (same tier)

And i'm trying to figure out why i'd ever bother with the Grad.
I think when i first started playing and wasn't looking carefully at stats, I just assume the Portable Howitzer was a slow, massive-alpha-strike weapon.
Bit it's.... 15 points more than a rando Nekomata's base damage?
And that's not even considering that of course you will be charging to Neko so it's even more?

Was Overwatch and/or the Grad nerfed at some point? Or was it always this bad? All other stats - range, etc - are the same or worse than the Neko. Its mag holds 5 rounds instead of 4, but everything else that matters - headshot multiplier, range, etc -there's no advantage to Overwatch.

:(

What's also weird and annoying is mine is, for some reason, suddenly marked with a quest icon (the yellow circle with the ! ) and i cannot put it in my stash, so i'm stuck lugging the silly thing around......

Overwatch-Nekomata.png
 
Its mag holds 5 rounds instead of 4, but everything else that matters - headshot multiplier, range, etc -there's no advantage to Overwatch.
The silencer I guess... But yes, overwatch was a bit nerfed if I remember.
I could be wrong, but "regular" Grads should deal more damage and pierce through lite covers a bit like tech weapons (except they don't need to be charged and easier to aim...)
Or go O'Five which shot explosive rounds (scope can be modified) if you want a tank gun.

As for the quest icon, Overwatch shouldn't have one, in theory because you acquire it at the end of the quest. But you still can report it to the support ("contact us" button).
 
Thanks, I suppose I should report the quest icon thing - it did NOT have one for most of my game so far, is the thing. I even had it in my stash for a while. Took it out a couple days ago; then i think yesterday, i noticed it had the ! icon and i couldn't Stash it any more. Very odd.

I don't know what O'Five is, is that an iconic sniper in lategame? Or another iconic Grad maybe?

I guess Overwatch is gotten pretty early - i haven't even looked at "normal" Grads but i will check - even so, it's a bit silly that an "iconic" weapon would be worse than the garden-variety store-bought items of the same tier. Tier should be the determination of power, not when you get it..... also it's kind of annoying if the normal ones have an undocumented "pierces cover" feature but the Iconic doesn't. Oh well.

Anyway. Thanks for the info!

Last random ramble:
in English at least, the weapons are named kinda backwards imo lol.
Something that blasts through solid concrete and engine blocks and walls and people and basically laughs at cover should be a POWER weapon.
Something that does tricks with geometry angles would be a TECHNICAL weapon.
Not the other way around ;). "Power" doesn't cause ricochets, a lack of power does lol. Power pierces. And "a technical" is even a phrase for performing a stunt in some areas. i just hadda get that out after all this time lol thanks for coming to my TED talk ;)
 
I don't know what O'Five is, is that an iconic sniper in lategame? Or another iconic Grad maybe?
Yep, another iconic Grad, extremely fun sniper or I would rather say "tank gun" :D
12-09-2022_03-08-11-5vbeb5tn.jpeg
Yeah, but Overwatch is the only "sniper" with a silencer, so for stealth, it could be better than any sniper. But the downside, it deal less damage :)
 
I guess Overwatch is gotten pretty early - i haven't even looked at "normal" Grads but i will check - even so, it's a bit silly that an "iconic" weapon would be worse than the garden-variety store-bought items of the same tier.
Regular Grads do more damage.

Overwatch receives a damage penalty due to having a silencer. Just like every silencer in the game, reduces the guns base damage by an amount (10-30%) for the upside of having silent killing and access to bonus stealth damage (100-150% from the silencer itself plus whatever stat mods you have providing flat stealth damage) while undetected.

In terms of actual numbers at max upgrade:

Nekomata - 191 damage
Overwatch - 215 damage
Borzaya (Another Iconic Grad) - 296 damage (But only 200% headshot multiplier instead of 300%)
Grad - 307 damage
Sparky (Another Iconic Grad) - 307 damage (But only 250% headshot multiplier instead of 300%)
O'Five (Another Iconic Grad) - 774 damage (Cannot get headshots. Also is a heavy weapon so it slows you down and limits your jumping and prevents sprinting/dashing while held)

The main thing about "Iconic" weapons isn't that they're necessarily direct upgrades to regular variants. But they often will trade some base power for their iconic modifier.

Overwatch trades its damage for its silencer. The only Sniper in the game that can be silent, which makes it great for stealth gameplay (Though IIRC it's actually lacking its stealth damage bonuses so it's only useful for the silent killing rather than doing obscene stealth damage. It's been a while since I last used it.)

Borzaya and Sparky trade raw damage for their unique mods. Which can provide more damage or utility.

While O'Five trades headshots and mobility for big honking AoE explosions and crit damage.

As far as access goes... O'Five is available immediately upon reaching Act 2. From one of the Beat on the Brat encounters. Sparky/Borzaya both require Phantom Liberty access.

Weapons aren't limited based on availability, iconics you can get early can be pretty powerful. It's just you have to factor in what their unique mods are doing, not all of them are just "Hit harder" mods and require certain playstyles or builds to utilize. (Of course, there's also the innate benefit of iconics being upgradable allowing you to grab a higher tier weapon before you reach the threshold for them to normally be accessible by converting crafting materials into higher tier ones)
in English at least, the weapons are named kinda backwards imo lol.
Something that blasts through solid concrete and engine blocks and walls and people and basically laughs at cover should be a POWER weapon.
Something that does tricks with geometry angles would be a TECHNICAL weapon.
Not the other way around ;). "Power" doesn't cause ricochets, a lack of power does lol. Power pierces. And "a technical" is even a phrase for performing a stunt in some areas. i just hadda get that out after all this time lol thanks for coming to my TED talk

The naming is based around their technology rather than how they're used though.

Tech weapons use technology to allow them to charge up for additional damage and velocity.

Power weapons shoot bullets that are hard enough and have enough velocity to be able to bounce off things while retaining some lethality.

Smart weapons have smart bullets that can curve to hit locked on targets.
 
@Tarille
Ohhhhh.... thank for for the mechanics explanation. I thought I was just not finding any / getting unlucky / would unlock them later or something.... it never occurred to me that there are no other sniper rifles you can put a suppressor on. How bizarre....

So it makes sense now about Overwatch, and the breakdown between the variations and their tradeoffs make it clear (and interesting).
As for the latter, however, I'm afraid - while one can make an argument for nearly anything - it doesn't hold as true in the world of ballistics as you describe. Bullets ricochet off something when they can't penetrate it. Other than a soft target, low-caliber weapons will go spanging off surfaces that high-caliber weapons will crack or embed themselves in. As for tech, calculating those fancy ricochet angles is pretty technical ;) Penetrating hard targets is done today with tech we have now - denser bullets and more bang. (That's what depleted uranium was for, for example - the density).

Ofc, like i said, i just had to get that off my chest as it struck me as funny. Bottom line is it's a fictional game with many unrealstic elements and they can call their toys anything they want.
 
What? A sniper with a silencer?
If I remember, it's like that since day one. Overwatch is the only sniper in the game with a silencer.

um ... yes, but my point was it is silly and not immersive and only makes sense in terms of game balance IF that was the case as to why.

It’s quite common for sniper rifles to be used with suppressors (aka silencers). Suppressors reduce muzzle flash, minimize recoil, and most importantly, make it harder to locate the shooter's position—which is incredibly valuable for a sniper trying to stay hidden.

Here are some real-world examples and sources that show suppressors are used on sniper rifles:
  • U.S. Army field manuals and procurement contracts include suppressors as standard gear for snipers.
  • The M110 Semi-Automatic Sniper System (SASS) used by the U.S. military comes with a suppressor.
  • The MK13 Mod 7, a bolt-action sniper rifle used by Navy SEALs, is often paired with a suppressor.
  • Real-world sniper teams often opt for suppressors when mission conditions favor stealth over raw range or velocity.

It’s not only realistic—it’s standard practice in many cases. Suppressors absolutely make sense as a PLENTIFUL available option for sniper rifles in a game.

see here:
  1. U.S. Army M110 SASS Info (Military.com)
    Mentions integrated suppressor system.
  2. SilencerCo Article on Sniper Rifle Suppressors
    Explains reasons why snipers use suppressors.
  3. Military Times – Army fielding new suppressed sniper rifle
    Covers suppressed sniper rifles becoming standard issue.
  4. Wikipedia – Sniper rifle > Modern usage
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_rifle#Modern_usage
    General overview includes suppressor use in modern sniping.
  5. The Truth About Guns – “Yes, Snipers Use Suppressors”
    Civilian shooting blog backing up the same point
 
um ... yes, but my point was it is silly and not immersive and only makes sense in terms of game balance IF that was the case as to why.
It's a common video game trope.

Just like how shotguns tend to work like blunderbusses with ridiculously wide spreads that render the weapon useless beyond 5ft. (And only very special unique shotguns can be loaded with slugs rather than the apparent birdshot that most regular shotguns in video games seem to use...) despite that being horrendously innaccurate compared to reality.

Meanwhile, Garand Thumb did a pretty good video showing how shotguns work in reality and how insanely powerful slugs are as an ammunition:


They also did a video showcasing suppressing a 50 cal (Debunking the common video game explaination of "Sniper Rifles having too high a muzzle velocity for a supressor to work"):

 
um ... yes, but my point was it is silly and not immersive and only makes sense in terms of game balance IF that was the case as to why.

It’s quite common for sniper rifles to be used with suppressors (aka silencers). Suppressors reduce muzzle flash, minimize recoil, and most importantly, make it harder to locate the shooter's position—which is incredibly valuable for a sniper trying to stay hidden.

Here are some real-world examples and sources that show suppressors are used on sniper rifles:
  • U.S. Army field manuals and procurement contracts include suppressors as standard gear for snipers.
  • The M110 Semi-Automatic Sniper System (SASS) used by the U.S. military comes with a suppressor.
  • The MK13 Mod 7, a bolt-action sniper rifle used by Navy SEALs, is often paired with a suppressor.
  • Real-world sniper teams often opt for suppressors when mission conditions favor stealth over raw range or velocity.

It’s not only realistic—it’s standard practice in many cases. Suppressors absolutely make sense as a PLENTIFUL available option for sniper rifles in a game.

see here:
  1. U.S. Army M110 SASS Info (Military.com)
    Mentions integrated suppressor system.
  2. SilencerCo Article on Sniper Rifle Suppressors
    Explains reasons why snipers use suppressors.
  3. Military Times – Army fielding new suppressed sniper rifle
    Covers suppressed sniper rifles becoming standard issue.
  4. Wikipedia – Sniper rifle > Modern usage
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_rifle#Modern_usage
    General overview includes suppressor use in modern sniping.
  5. The Truth About Guns – “Yes, Snipers Use Suppressors”
    Civilian shooting blog backing up the same point
Oh well, I know nothing about real world firearms and I have no interest into it. So as long as it's fun, I don't mind :)

And to be honest, if you're a bit picky, there are plenty of stuff which doesn't have much sense. I mean, what kind of physical laws you have to break to perform a double jump mid air... and even better, to change your direction of movement mid air by performing a "air-dash"?
Technology evolved, I guess, but physical laws didn't :LOL:
 
Oh well, I know nothing about real world firearms and I have no interest into it. So as long as it's fun, I don't mind :)

And to be honest, if you're a bit picky, there are plenty of stuff which doesn't have much sense. I mean, what kind of physical laws you have to break to perform a double jump mid air... and even better, to change your direction of movement mid air by performing a "air-dash"?
Technology evolved, I guess, but physical laws didn't :LOL:

I totally get that fun comes first for a lot of people, but there’s a difference between bending physics in creative or plausible ways—like mid-air control using tech or magic—and just ignoring how basic human behavior works. A double jump or air-dash might stretch physics, sure, but it's usually justified within the game’s world through some kind of tech, magic, (gyroscopes- thrusters). That’s suspension of disbelief.

But when every character stands up to sleep instead of lying down (not in this game, just visual to make a point), or a game world pretends suppressors don’t exist despite them being common in real life, it breaks immersion in a different way. It’s not about pushing the boundaries of physics—it's just ignoring obvious aspects of reality or common sense for no good reason. There’s a line between creative license and lazy worldbuilding. I do not think it was lazy world building in this case I suspect it was "game balance". But ouch, that is a heavy handed way to get the balance.
 
But when every character stands up to sleep instead of lying down (not in this game, just visual to make a point), or a game world pretends suppressors don’t exist despite them being common in real life, it breaks immersion in a different way.
The game doesn't pretend that suppressors don't exist though.

They do exist. You have plenty of them. There are just some weapons you can't put them on.

In the case of Sniper Rifles, most cannot have them because they're Smart/Tech weapons and thus are already using a muzzle attachment which is what provides the Smart/Tech capabilities.

It would only be the Power Sniper Rifles (I.e Grads) that would have an option to fit one, if we accessed one.

Which brings up the second aspect. Plenty of things exist in the universe, that we simply don't get access to. Supressors that fit onto a Sniper Rifle (Or Precision Rifle) are apparently one of them.

We don't get Rocket Launchers, despite them existing (Panam pulls a Stinger out of her butt to knock down the AV. In Edgerunners a rocket launcher is what lead to David's car accident)

We don't get mines, despite them existing (We can even difuse them... Put can't pick them up and use them ourselves!)

We don't get to make custom modifications that most Iconics are based on (The descriptions of many Iconic weapons are "So and so made custom modifications to the weapon so now it works like this")

It's simply a case of video games limit what one can access in universe. Sniper Rifle suppressors happens to be one of those things. It's nothing that immersion breaking, it's simply we don't get them besides the one integrated on Overwatch.
 
Sorry, Tar, you have some good points but they don't "prove" it isn't immerstion-breaking. Mostly because immersion is subjective lol.

Really the TL;DR for this thread is like this -

CDPR decided snipers don't get suppressor because [reasons] and we'll never know why unless one of them responds here and tells us lol, and just how it is. At which point:
- For anyone who has any RL knowledge of firearms, it is terribly immersion-breaking
- For anyone who doesn't and/or doesn't mind, it isn't

simple as that 8)
 
Sorry, Tar, you have some good points but they don't "prove" it isn't immerstion-breaking.
I said isn't "That immersion breaking"

It can break some immersion. But it's not too bad as to be particularly egregious.

It's far more immersion breaking to have emails confined to PC's when phones are part of everyone's brain (Whereby text messages can be sent... And typed?) for example.
CDPR decided snipers don't get suppressor because [reasons] and we'll never know why unless one of them responds here and tells us lol, and just how it is.
We won't know exactly why, but we can infer.

They likely didn't want to deal with the extreme damage potential that a suppressed sniper rifle would do. As I mentioned in my first post, silencers provide that 100-150% bonus stealth damage. With also Grads having that 300% headshot damage multiplier. Throw in a T5 Cetus for guaranteed headshot crits and you're guaranteed absolutely insane damage reminiscent of the 1.0 damage stacking builds that one-shot everyone.

Like, there's a reason they removed the ability to put silencers on Revolvers with 2.0. They were also quite powerful with again, 200% headshot multipliers, plus the stealth damage bonuses and their 25% armour penetration.
For anyone who has any RL knowledge of firearms, it is terribly immersion-breaking
Not really.

Not all sniper rifles are used with supressors. For military use, sure, it is standard practice. But the majority of non-military uses (Which would include all people in the Cyberpunk universe that are not specifically a part of Militech) do not use supressors.

But then we shouls also consider the setting. Would Militech even bother with supressors at all? Given that random Scavvy McScavFace can trace someone's exact location using random hack software despite having literally no indication of their presence besides "Someone nearby was attacked by something"

What are the chances that Militech (Or any other corpo enterprise) doesn't have advanced tracking software that would identify the source of a supressed sniper shot? Which would render the thing obsolete. As does the nature of Cyberware and advanced armour that can render people nigh invincible (To say nothing about military grade Sandevistan and Berserk implants) making "Stealth" not nearly as important as in real life.

This is quite notable during the first episode of Edgerunners (And the scene you can view in the random BD visor found in an alley), where a cyberpsycho goes on a rampage killing cops and Maxtac come in and shut him down. The psycho with military grade cyberware and Maxtac with military grade answers to such powerful implants.

Thus it is not a forgone conclusion that supressors for sniper rifles MUST be available. Even if one knows about firearms and knows that they not only exist in real life but are commonly used in military applications, this doesn't not translate into the setting of the video game beyond "They can exist"

To which they do, as we can access in the form of a specific Nomad rifle (Whether this was due to its military use during the Unification War or was an aftermarket modification adapting to the Nomad lifestyle after the fact is unclear).

Beyond that one rifle we do not get access to any. We can theorize that the regular ones we get that fit on Pistols, SMG's and AR's don't fit on higher caliber weapons (Which is a thing in real life. You can't just slap any supressor onto any gun, it has to actually fit the caliber of round being used). While any ones that would fit we simply don't find, either because they're uncommon or because for reasons we just don't get them (Like aforementioned items that exist in the game but we don't get)

In the end it's not that big a deal. Sniper rifles in the game are still incredibly potent and you can take out most enemies in one shot and the lack of a silencer is barely notable with how far away you can stand and take enemies out (Especially with Breakthrough as it can punch through almost infinite obstacles allowing you to shoot people through multiple buildings. Who needs to be silent when enemies literally cannot get to you)

Perhaps in the next game they can rework how stealth bonus damage works so that supressors aren't too OP to be allowed for anything but Pistols/SMGs/AR's (With only rare exceptions like Overwatch and Mancinella) and make them more available for other weapon types, like Revolvers, Precision Rifles and Sniper Rifles.
 
The game doesn't pretend that suppressors don't exist though.

There are just some weapons you can't put them on.

I am not saying you are wrong but that is not what LeKill3rFou said (and LeKill3rFou is almost always right about gameplay).
I based my post off of what LeKill3rFou said about only ONE sniper riffle in the game has a suppressor. So unless that is incorrect it is most defiantly immersion breaking no way around it.

Only one sniper riffle in the entire city has a suppressor...

I only hope it was for game balance reasons such as with the rocket launchers. Or it could be they ran out of time (no rocket launcher for players), LOL that would not be all that surprising now that I think about it. I mean that they did not code players to use rocket launcher and mines simply because they ran out of time. I will have to look now to see if there are mods that add these into the game for the player. If not then that would support the idea the hard code is not there for it.


EDIT:
So there are mods for this...

Techtronika T40 Uragan (Active-guided Rocket Launcher)
This mod reintroduces the shelved Techtronika T40 Uragan rocket launcher, enabling players to lock onto enemies and unleash guided rockets. It's a standalone weapon that doesn't replace existing gear.

Projectile Launcher Rework
Enhances the existing Projectile Launcher System by adding new variants (common, uncommon, iconic) and introducing Biotechnica kinetic projectile rounds. These launchers can be acquired from ripperdocs in Watson or spawned via scripts.

Intuitive Projectile Launcher System
Improves the targeting mechanics of the Projectile Launcher System, allowing for better accuracy and homing capabilities, even when not in combat. This mod ensures rockets hit their intended targets more reliably.



Land Mine Mods​

  1. Ayumi X Veegee Landmine Set - Archive XL
    • Introduces a set of land mines with unique designs.
 
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I based my post off of what LeKill3rFou said about only ONE sniper riffle in the game has a suppressor. So unless that is incorrect it is most defiantly immersion breaking no way around it.

Only one sniper riffle in the entire city has a suppressor...
Only ONE sniper rifle that PLAYERS CAN OBTAIN has a suppressor.

That doesn't mean that there aren't any others that exist. Just we don't get to access any others.

As I've said multiple times, there's plenty of things that exist that players don't get to use. Why? Because this is a video game and thus there is a limit to what can not only realistically be coded for, but also balance to factor in (Which is probably the biggest reason for not allowing them. Given the removal of muzzle attachments for Revolvers due to balance concerns and the problem being far more pronounced with the much higher base damage rifles)

Like, various cyberarms exist in the game (Dex's arm, Johnny's arm, Alt's hand etc)... We don't get to use them. Does that mean they don't exist? No. It just means that players don't get them for any number of reasons.

And again, it's not even particularly immersion breaking. Yes, in real life military scenarios, they are commonplace. But you know what isn't a real life military scenario? The game. Where you play as some random merc in a technologically advanced future shooting up mostly gangbangers and Arasaka security. Not exactly current day Military ops, where suppressors are more commonly used.

Add to that that the most commonly used sniper rifle by NPCs is the Nekomata. A Tech weapon that literally cannot use any muzzle attachments, like a supressor, because of the nature of how the Tech mod that makes the charging function work replaces the muzzle and is not compatible with muzzle attachments (As we can see with Tech Pistols and SMG's not being able to use any muzzle attachments, despite us getting them)

So yeah. It's a little immersion breaking that you can't find a suppressor for other Grads much like how Mitch found one for his Overwatch (Again, it's unclear if this was supplied by Militech during the Unification War, or if he made/found it afterwards while he was roaming with the Aldecados).

It's not this big earthshattering dissonance to not acquire more, given the nature of the setting, where not only do NPC's simply never use suppressors on ANY guns including sniper rifles, the setting kind of obfuscates their necessity in most scenarios (Like, why would Militech need a suppressed sniper when they can just get a soldier to go in with Sandevistan active and take out an entire group of enemies before they can even react? Or sit back and hack a target to neutralize them instantly and silently from literally miles away? Or send someone in with Optical Camo to go and do whatever they want while completely invisible?)

I say this as someone who's often irked by the non-sensical notions of barring suppressors for sniper rifles in games due to abitrary reasons (Like saying they don't work on such guns). It never really sticks out in Cyberpunk's setting due to the many differences between real life military scenarios where such things are commonplace and the role the player has in CP2077 and overall technologies available.

The only notable frustration I've encountered in the in regards to this is a slight annoyance at stealth builds being shoehorned into Pistols or Thrown weapons. No Revolvers (Besides Mancinella), no Precision Rifles, no Sniper Rifles (Besides Overwatch), no any other kind of weapon (SMG and AR are usable after reaching level 55 in Headhunting so you get to keep stealth damage bonuses for 3 seconds after entering combat and so get to do a burst of fire with bonus damage). Which is more to do with CP2077's stealth gameplay feeling much more like an afterthought than anything.
 
balance to factor in (Which is probably the biggest reason for not allowing them

Game balance... yeah, as I have said many times. Still immersion breaking but especially for players like me that play sniper builds. So if I want to play a hardcore sniper I am stuck with one gun. You are very right about the stealth in the game. The recent revisions seem to show the DEV just do not think guns fit in with stealth. Which I would have accepted expect that they then also nerfed the best dam Katana in the game as well.

So we do agree on something!
 
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