Way of the Witcher revealed!

[Messyr]

Koshchey is kinda crap. 4 power thrive for this many provisions? It doesn't matter what it does. Joustable high prov engines = garbage. Another fitting card in Gwent: Do-You-Have-An-Answer-For-The-Defender-Card Game.

You probably won't joust that 4 body 3 armor.
Koschey is actually a powerhouse in my opinion, especially scary for the short round - literally serves as a built-in Larvae dispenser granting you those extra +1/+1 thrive points for every taller units you play after the initial turn, while also the freedom to mulligan Larvaes from your hand and focus only on big units.

Post automatically merged: Nov 26, 2020

I am honestly just so tired of people jumping and shouting "OP" at every second card that is getting revealed and usually trying to defend cards for the own faction, while calling cards for other factions "OP", "braindead" or whatelse.
You are not the worst offender, so please don't take this as an insult and I have to say I did it too at some point in the past (although never when cards were announced, only when they did see play).

Also a good portion of cards people call OP turn out to be far worse, once people actually try them, infact even Vabjorn's old ability was called "broken" and "auto-include", when it was, for most of the past of homecoming, arguably one of the least used and least useful Golds in the game.

Especially the braindead argument, that argument, if we are being honest, can be applied to basically every faction, even SY, if you just analyze them enough.
The interesting aspect of the game is having a working path with one's deck and varying what one is willing to commit and how one responds to threats, especially with varying hand quality and available resources.

This is actually spot on. Well said Sir.

 

[OuterSpaceDoggo]

I hope that more insects will come, I had some ideas about starting to play MO while focusing on insectoids. Maybe this expansion will finally push me towards MO

 

[TokisPL]

Setting aside new cards reveals: do you guys think Adrenaline mechanic will be present on the old cards? Just imagine how well deserved it would be for the cards like Gord? It would be reasonble if devs decided to use it widely in order to balance some out-of-control stuff by limiting its capabilities - basing it on the timing and hand size instead.

As for the WotW cards: like it was for MM reveals, I would restrain from calling sth OP or crap right away - cards that have been revealed so far could have more utility or power once the whole set has been presented.

 

[OuterSpaceDoggo]

I'm also waiting for the Coin card to toss to my witchers.

 

[Pacifixer]

http://imgur.com/4pUGTZd

I can't complain about this one

 

[Messyr]

I'm also waiting for the Coin card to toss to my witchers.

That would be actually hillarious

Valley of Plenty
9 provisions
Toss a coin to your Witcher (of choice), enabling them to use their Deploy abilities a second time.

 

[OuterSpaceDoggo]

That would be actually hillarious

Valley of Plenty
9 provisions
Toss a coin to your Witcher (of choice), enabling them to use their Deploy abilities a second time.

And a new Dandelion card

 

[Draconifors]

More Consume support in that Hybrid, I see. Possibly a double (or triple, since Bronze) engine with Idr also on board?

 

[Markus_Wirth]

http://imgur.com/4pUGTZd

I can't complain about this one

Also nice engine card. Probably together with Idr in a consume/deathwish deck.
Comparable to Vran warrior but provision cheaper and limited to consume.

 

[Sensimilius]

I feel sorry for the grotesque mutant monsters coming with this expansion. :c For they aren't natural occurrences, they are experiments of scientists/mages...
Like we're going into FarCry 1 territory.

 

[quintivarium]

I am honestly just so tired of people jumping and shouting "OP" at every second card that is getting revealed and usually trying to defend cards for the own faction, while calling cards for other factions "OP", "braindead" or whatelse.

Let me second this — and add that I am offended at the lack of objectivity of many people posting, “Woe is my faction while everyone else gets OP, brain dead treats.”

I consider myself a dabbler in everything rather than maining any single faction — though admittedly with suboptimal decks based upon the limited cards I own. But I can say that every archetype from every faction I play requires careful thought. It is easy to misplay and make game-costing errors. Card order is never automatic if you have the intelligence to actually play around what your opponent might do. It is often tricky to decide how deep to push into round one, and it is almost always hard to decide whether and how hard to bleed round 2 if given that option.

And I definitely don’t believe the developers are deliberately biased toward or against any faction — why would they be as that destroys their own game? They might misjudge — they are human after all and balance is complex and often subtle — but they aren’t deliberately out to punish or reward any given faction.

That said, my reaction without actually playing is yet is very positive toward this expansion. While I don’t like that the developers are building upon what I think are some general flaws in the game design (too much emphasis on “big” cards, too many engines generating too much value per turn, too much too strong removal necessitated by those engines, too much RNG, too much tutoring in an effort to remove that RNG, cards too strongly tied to a single archetype, ...) But I am finding every faction is getting usable, creative cards that increase the potential for new, playable decks. And almost all of these cards appear to enrich strategy both in deck building and in play. That is exciting!

 

[Draconifors]

For they aren't natural occurrences, they are experiments of scientists/mages...

Same goes for witchers, really. They aren't as grotesque (though some NPCs would disagree for sure), but they are unnatural mutants.

One could even argue witchers have it much worse than those monsters, because they need to try to get along with people to get money for their survival, but are treated as outcasts and even monsters.
Monsters just exist among other monsters, and for probably the most part they aren't sentient.

And I definitely don’t believe the developers are deliberately biased toward or against any faction — why would they be as that destroys their own game?

Yeah, that argument has never held water. Developers have preferences, of course, but they won't let that show in development like often is claimed they do.
Not to mention they have, over the years, been accused of favouring literally every faction other than Syndicate (and if Syndicate wasn't so new it would no doubt have been "the favoured one" as well). They have also been accused of hating factions they've previously been accused of favouring, and vice versa, which is hilarious.

 

[Messyr]

Let me second this — and add that I am offended at the lack of objectivity of many people posting, “Woe is my faction while everyone else gets OP, brain dead treats.”

I consider myself a dabbler in everything rather than maining any single faction — though admittedly with suboptimal decks based upon the limited cards I own. But I can say that every archetype from every faction I play requires careful thought. It is easy to misplay and make game-costing errors. Card order is never automatic if you have the intelligence to actually play around what your opponent might do. It is often tricky to decide how deep to push into round one, and it is almost always hard to decide whether and how hard to bleed round 2 if given that option.

And I definitely don’t believe the developers are deliberately biased toward or against any faction — why would they be as that destroys their own game? They might misjudge — they are human after all and balance is complex and often subtle — but they aren’t deliberately out to punish or reward any given faction.

That said, my reaction without actually playing is yet is very positive toward this expansion. While I don’t like that the developers are building upon what I think are some general flaws in the game design (too much emphasis on “big” cards, too many engines generating too much value per turn, too much too strong removal necessitated by those engines, too much RNG, too much tutoring in an effort to remove that RNG, cards too strongly tied to a single archetype, ...) But I am finding every faction is getting usable, creative cards that increase the potential for new, playable decks. And almost all of these cards appear to enrich strategy both in deck building and in play. That is exciting!

It is definitely refreshing to see more of this mindset in this community. My thoughts exactly.

 

[rrc]

I am honestly just so tired of people jumping and shouting "OP" at every second card that is getting revealed and usually trying to defend cards for the own faction, while calling cards for other factions "OP", "braindead" or whatelse.
You are not the worst offender, so please don't take this as an insult and I have to say I did it too at some point in the past (although never when cards were announced, only when they did see play).

Also a good portion of cards people call OP turn out to be far worse, once people actually try them, infact even Vabjorn's old ability was called "broken" and "auto-include", when it was, for most of the past of homecoming, arguably one of the least used and least useful Golds in the game.

No offense taken. We are cool . When people say Brehen is OP, I get annoyed too as I like ST and know the mechanisms much better and I can see where they are wrong. Only time will tell. But this assessment of Koshchey is very objective. Not because currently MO is oppressive and I hate how ridiculously oppressive MO is.

In 6 turns (be it bleeding in R2 or in R3), Koshchey can generate:
5 cards in hand: 4
4 cards in hand: +2 (+1 thrive and +1 Larva)
3 cards in hand: +3 (+1 thrive and +1 thrive on Larva and +1 Larva spawn)
2 cards in hand: +4 (...)
1 cards in hand: +5 (...)
Last Card which is Ozzrel: +6 (...)

So, in total, this card could have played for 24 points. One 10P card, playing for 24 points. If that is not OP as hell, I don't know what else is. Even scenarios don't play for this much value. Also, when I say thrive is "braindead" and "nooby" I really mean it. Where the hell is the skill needed to play thrive? You simply play units with lowest strength to highest strength.

But you are right. Some cards seems really powerful but then it doesn't get played much and some cards seems weak but they find a sweet spot. But Koshchey is yet another card, which, when not answered, just wins the game single handedly. If on the 6th turn you play Koshchey with Caranthir, the nightmare is doubled. Which will force people to bring hell lot of control or Yrden, without which the game is lost before it starts. It is not healthy.

 

[Gyg]

@rrc your math is a bit off as you counted the last card twice. So optimal play is 18 points for 10P in 5 cards turn (still alot). Thing is the cards such as Koshchey can be quickly balanced by changing the value of the Adrenaline. The problem is the larva generation, not the drone. Change it to adrenaline 3 and you have 13 points for 10P (very reasonable) for 4 cards turn.

 

[rrc]

@rrc your math is a bit off as you counted the last card twice. So optimal play is 18 points for 10P in 5 cards turn (still alot). Thing is the cards such as Koshchey can be quickly balanced by changing the value of the Adrenaline. The problem is the larva generation, not the drone. Change it to adrenaline 3 and you have 13 points for 10P (very reasonable) for 4 cards turn.

Lets go with specific example:
My hand: Koshchey, 5 Strength Card, 6 Strength Card, 7 Strength Card, 8 Strength Card, 9 Strength Card (totally 6 cards in hand)
1) I play Koshchey
2) I play my 5 strength card (still 4 cards in hand and hence triggering Adrenaline 4) and generates +2 points (Larva + Thrive)
3) 6 strength card (still 3 cards in hand) Generating +3 (+2 thrives and +1 Spawn)
4) 7 strength card (2 cards in hand) Generating +4 (+3 thrives and +1 Spawn)
5) 8 strength card (1 card in hand) Generating +5 (+4 thrives and +1 Spawn)
6) Last card I play (0 cards in hand and passing) +6 (+5 thrive and +1 Spawn)

The opponent resigns or plays Yrden and wins

So totally, 4 (initial Koshchey) +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 = 24 points. Now if I play Caranthir on the first point I think totally it would be close to 40 points (?) by the virtue of two cards played in (1) and (2). So, even without Caranthir, just Koshchey plays for 24 points.

 

[InkognitoXI]

[...]
In 6 turns (be it bleeding in R2 or in R3), Koshchey can generate:
5 cards in hand: 4
4 cards in hand: +2 (+1 thrive and +1 Larva)
3 cards in hand: +3 (+1 thrive and +1 thrive on Larva and +1 Larva spawn)
2 cards in hand: +4 (...)
1 cards in hand: +5 (...)
Last Card which is Ozzrel: +6 (...)
[...]

If we evaluate the card with immediate Adrenaline in mind it allows to generate 5 Larvae, which then generate 1 point for each following turn, on top of the own Thrive Koshchey generates.
Schematically it should look like this:
1 1
1 1 1
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1 1 1
This in total equals 15 points (2->5->9->14->20) generate by its ability and thus in total 24 points.
If you also consider Force of Nature in the final turn, BEFORE playing a 10, to not miss thrive (which would finally be a decent reason to play it) we end up with 1 more layer.
1 1
1 1 1
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Which would then make it 27 points and 31 with its original body in mind, one has to note though that at this point the space starts becoming a serious issue.

This is indeed a lot, that being said, if you can lock it (, boost it) or remove it you remove much of the issue.
Admittedly this is a very strong card when it works, however before people tech Yrden against it I would expect Rockslide or other much simpler answers.
In this regard I would say that Koshchey is hardly more of an issue than Vysagota.

SK Warriors won't care, given that they can use Hjalmar, combinations and Champion's Charge to smack it down.
NR usually has an answer, be it either in terms of Commandos a large Draug killing it, for Shield Wall Anseis immediately killing it or in the case of Revenants even more removal and combinations with Order abilities.
NG can just spam the row with Spies to block it from doing a whole lot, as well as using Invocation, Vilgefortz etc.
Anyone can use Heatwave/Rockslide to kill it.

And the copy one can generate with Caranthir effectively has a surivability of 5 points, meaning all Alzur's Thunder clones are already answers, alongside all of the above.

In theory Kikimore Queen also adds a lot of points and would in theory of no removal force everyone to run Yrden, however even at the peak of Kikimore Queen it has never been the case that you could not identify it and then bleed it out or straight up just immediately answer it.
This is clearly better than Kikimore Queen, however I am sceptical if it will be as bad as it might appear to you.

In the very worst case the card can be nerfed in terms of survivability, the Adrenaline condition or provisions.

 

[Markus_Wirth]

Actually I do not see a problem with Koshey at all.

To my mind, Koshey can best be compared to Kikimore Queen (11 provisions)

I prepared two examples for overall point potential. You have to prepare Kikimora Queen in round 1 and have the following maximum value potential. The combo can so make 137 points in total + the ones from the tall consuming units triggering thrive.

	Kikimora Queen + Caranthir	Value	Thrive Threshold
Round 2	12​	Body Caranthir (4), Kiki (1), Thrive (7)
Round 3	13​	Body Kiki (5), Thrive 8	2​
Round 4	16​	Thrive (16), 8 Insectoide Thrives	6​
Round 5	16​		8​
Round 6	16​		10​
Round 7	16​		12​
Round 8	16​		14​
Round 9	16​		16​
Round 10	16​
	137​

Let´s compare to Koshey + Caranthir

For the analysis I just took a look at a prepartion for adrenaline to get those endrega larvaes. If you assume that you play early you can basically add 4 points for round 3 to 4 (2x Drone + 2x Thrive) and 2 Points for round 1 to 2 (1 x Drone and 1x Thrive). In this case the combo would make 38 + 4*2 +4 = 50 points. So I would strongly argue that you do not start preparing before Adrenaline 5.

	Koshey + Caranthir	Value	Endregas	Thrive Threshold
Round 2
Round 3
Round 4
Round 5	7​	Row 1 Caranthir (4) + Koshey (1) + Insectoide spam (1) + Thrive 1
Round 6	6​	Row 2 Koshey (4) + Thrive Koshey 1 + 1 additional Endraga	1​	2​
Round 7	5​	Thrive 2 Kosheys + Thrive 1 Endregas + 2 additional Endregas	3​	5​
Round 8	7​	Thrive 2 Kosheys + Thrive 3 Endregas + 2 additional Endregas	5​	6​
Round 9	9​	Thrive 2 Koshey + Thrive 5 Endregas + 2 additional Endregas	7​	7​
Round 10	11​	Thrive 2 Koshey + Thrive 7 Endregas + 2 additional Endregas	9​	8​
	38​

To sum it up: Kikimora Queen + Caranthir have the following pros:
- 99 more point potential
- less risk that your board is full

Koshey + Caranthir have the following Pros:
- 1 provision saved
- lower body of Koshey makes thriving more easily
- do not have to prepare the row with other insectoides

=> Currently, Kikimora Queen strategy is defintely not OP. So I would not expect Koshey to become OP either.

 

[rrc]

...
In theory Kikimore Queen also adds a lot of points and would in theory of no removal force everyone to run Yrden, however even at the peak of Kikimore Queen it has never been the case that you could not identify it and then bleed it out or straight up just immediately answer it.
This is clearly better than Kikimore Queen, however I am sceptical if it will be as bad as it might appear to you.

In the very worst case the card can be nerfed in terms of survivability, the Adrenaline condition or provisions.

Kikimore Queen needs the deck to be built around putting a lot of insectoids (the 4P death blow one, the 4P 4 drone special card etc.) In a short round KQ will be useless as it needs a lot of turns to build up to the momentum. This new card doesn't need any special deck building requirement (the current Fruits deck can work with this). Even in short round this can generate a lot of points.

But as you said, every faction has enough removal. If somehow you can't remove this card (because you had to use it for defender or Beast) the game is pretty much over. This card will give you three options: Remove me? Or Yrden me? Or Lose? and for what 10? That is where I am scared of this card. But the time will tell. I am bracing for an extended SK MO oppressive seasons ahead unless other factions also get OP cards which can match this nonsense.

 

[Markus_Wirth]

Kikimore Queen needs the deck to be built around putting a lot of insectoids (the 4P death blow one, the 4P 4 drone special card etc.) In a short round KQ will be useless as it needs a lot of turns to build up to the momentum. This new card doesn't need any special deck building requirement (the current Fruits deck can work with this). Even in short round this can generate a lot of points.

But as you said, every faction has enough removal. If somehow you can't remove this card (because you had to use it for defender or Beast) the game is pretty much over. This card will give you three options: Remove me? Or Yrden me? Or Lose? and for what 10? That is where I am scared of this card. But the time will tell. I am bracing for an extended SK MO oppressive seasons ahead unless other factions also get OP cards which can match this nonsense.

For Kikimora Queen the options are probably in most cases remove me or Yrden me. For Koshey there is defintely also the option generate more points than the other deck.