Weekly Poll 10/1/2018 - The Gunplay!

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How do you like your CRPG Gunplay?


  • Total voters
    198
I really can't think of better type of core gunplay for translating FNF into modern action rpg.

I just played Max Payne 3 and am reviewing FNFF again for my campaign starting soon.

Gotta say - nope no nope nope nope.

You try 90% of MP stuff in FNFF, you die.

Can't dodge bullets in FNFF. No slow mo dodges, uh huh.

Unless heavily armoured, a hit or two stuns, injures and/or kills you. IF heavily armored, that happens when hit with the right rounds or a well-placed/lucky shot.

No regenerating health.

Moving while shooting in FNFF sucks for accuracy. Also calling headshots eat up accuracy. Also being wounded eats accuracy. Put these together, you better be rolling 10s, unless your name is Morgan.

What else..well, lots. The whole system is kind of a testament to not playing like an action hero.

I like the speed and action and, yes, gunfights in FNFF are generally very fast, but that's because you win or you die. And if they outnumber, outskill or outgear you - bye bye.
 
I think any sane person getting himself into a gunfight ought to be a little prepared. Staying away from unfavorable situations seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Having a good idea for how to resolve conflicts in whatever way seems like also a very good idea, else you might get stuck in a sticky situation, or experience something surprising.
 
I think any sane person getting himself into a gunfight ought to be a little prepared. Staying away from unfavorable situations seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Having a good idea for how to resolve conflicts in whatever way seems like also a very good idea, else you might get stuck in a sticky situation, or experience something surprising.

Well, the realist approach won't work as you are playing without teammates, which means death in the Cyberpunk universe.
 
I hope they design a plethora of different weapon systems with varying degrees of skill/stats ratio. On one hand, you can have weapons with big spray patterns that don't require a lot of skill, and they can have upgrades like tracking bullets that play similar to Soldier 76's ultimate form Overwatch. On the other hand, they could include very precise and powerful weapons like Half-Lifes Colt Python that reward players for the skill and have the appropriate "omph" when you use them.

Then they could balance them through various skills, body and weapon mods that affect damage, recoil, reload times and special moves.

It would allow players to chose and customise their playstyle and maybe use a different approach to combat in every playthrough.
 
It means that almost every gunfight in this game is bound to be an unfavorable situation by Cyberpunk standard.
By CP2020/FNFF standards it is, VERY unfavorable. But as a Cyberpunk based shooter it seems to be just fine.

The sheer number of opponents is going to make RPG combat a serious challenge, thus the absolute need for a pause option. As @Sardukhar said earlier, standard shooter game "tactics" won't work with a realistically lethal (and firing accuracy modifiers) combat system.
 
The sheer number of opponents is going to make RPG combat a serious challenge, thus the absolute need for a pause option.

How does a pause option help? If the encounters feature so many opponents the character has no hope of getting through them it's a problem with the encounter design. By all rights the character would be in trouble whether there was pause functionality or not. The only way this wouldn't be the case is if the player needed the pause functionality to handle the encounter properly. To stop and think about whom they're going to fire at first, when and where to duck behind cover, etc. In that case I could see advocating for the option to stop game play on-demand, provided it was optional (this is not at all meant in a disrespectful manner either).

Well, the realist approach won't work as you are playing without teammates, which means death in the Cyberpunk universe.

Same thing here. This would only be true if the encounters were built where the player character was constantly facing ridiculous odds with no backup, available methods to circumvent the encounter or a way to tip the scales (run, utilize some type of item/weapon/ability, the element of surprise, what have you.). I'd hope CDPR isn't going for this in the encounters. If it's always 5-10+ opponents simultaneously fighting the player and combat occurs at an absurdly high rate they may as well call it FPS combat and design it as such. Hopefully they don't decide to do so.

The lethality doesn't need to be absolutely realistic. That would probably be going a bit too far. It could very well be relatively lethal to engage in combat, however. At least, lethal enough to where we don't have constant bullet sponges where they wouldn't make any sense. It might make the player think twice about going guns blazing if this were the case.

It's not a completely comparable example given the different weapon type focus but I think W3, for the most part, hit a good place for combat lethality against human opponents (million ways you can rationalize immortal earth elementals). Short of heavily armored or important NPC's most comparably leveled human opponents would drop in 1-4 hits. Likewise, getting hit as the player really hurts on certain difficulty levels. For enemies with a large level edge all bets are off since they tend to 1-2 shot the character.

On a more general note, I'd rather not see turn based combat. Having constant stoppages in game play is a great way to destroy the immersion and take the player out of the moment, particularly when the perspective is first person. I wouldn't mind if it were optional for players interested in it though.
 
Voted for tactical. Mostly because I like RPGs because they tend to tax your brain not your reflexes. Even in games like Mass Effect, smart choices, a deliberate approach qnd a few well chosen abilities could compensate for my limited shooting abilities. Any twitch based combat goes against what I like in this type of game in the first place.

Really hope for, but don't expect, some kind of pause function. To survey the surroundings, pick a strategy and cycle through abilities. But I guess that wouldn't be 'immersive'...
 
How does a pause option help?
Time to assess threats and prioritize targets, to look for available cover, to decide on an optimum course of action.

YES, the pause option is totally unrealistic because time to make optimal decisions is exactly what you don't have in a real firefight. But many people don't have the ability to react under fire an/or the reflexes to do so. Do you really want to tell them "you can't play this RPG because you're not a good at shooter games"?

The other option would be to totally automate combat (i.e. Baldurs Gate) , and that's obviously less then ideal.
 
If they want the gunplay to feel and work like a shooter, they should make the best shooter they can and forget the RPG elements that would only muddy it.

If, on the other hand, they want to make the best RPG they can, they shouldn’t shy away from design that leans heavily away from shooter gameplay, and design the RPG mechanics to be as strong as possible.
 
If they want the gunplay to feel and work like a shooter, they should make the best shooter they can and forget the RPG elements that would only muddy it.

If, on the other hand, they want to make the best RPG they can, they shouldn’t shy away from design that leans heavily away from shooter gameplay, and design the RPG mechanics to be as strong as possible.

They're not mutually exclusive design goals.
 
Same thing here. This would only be true if the encounters were built where the player character was constantly facing ridiculous odds with no backup, available methods to circumvent the encounter or a way to tip the scales (run, utilize some type of item/weapon/ability, the element of surprise, what have you.). I'd hope CDPR isn't going for this in the encounters. If it's always 5-10+ opponents simultaneously fighting the player and combat occurs at an absurdly high rate they may as well call it FPS combat and design it as such. Hopefully they don't decide to do so.

The lethality doesn't need to be absolutely realistic. That would probably be going a bit too far. It could very well be relatively lethal to engage in combat, however. At least, lethal enough to where we don't have constant bullet sponges where they wouldn't make any sense. It might make the player think twice about going guns blazing if this were the case.

It's not a completely comparable example given the different weapon type focus but I think W3, for the most part, hit a good place for combat lethality against human opponents (million ways you can rationalize immortal earth elementals). Short of heavily armored or important NPC's most comparably leveled human opponents would drop in 1-4 hits. Likewise, getting hit as the player really hurts on certain difficulty levels. For enemies with a large level edge all bets are off since they tend to 1-2 shot the character.

There is no need for high number of enemies high level ( :rolleyes: ) enemies to take down a player, a hobo with a shotgun is well enough (Someone said Battlezone?:p).
 
I didn't think any of them really work, there needs to be the right style which works for this game, unless CDPR test the gunplay, who can say what will work best. From what CDPR has projected to us so far, I take it they will be testing their game or so I hope.

I think a mix of real gun physics and cool powerful weapons with a bit of doom/quake style could work, but more on the side of realism. Too much outside of realism and it loses its edge and human connection and it becomes just another mechanic you have to slog through in order to get past it. I wont name any culprits, but you don't just put in game mechanics for the sake of a gap filler.

VATS from Fallout is a cool system, but that's already been done and it fits well into Fallout, I can't see it working in 2077, and even if it could work, it's going to feel like your playing a Fallout game, pretty stupid thing to do.
Last thing you want is playing an awesome new IP and then thinking to yourself, this feels like that other game. Will ruin the game for me.

No vote for me, none of them really fit as a solid choice.
 
YES, the pause option is totally unrealistic because time to make optimal decisions is exactly what you don't have in a real firefight. But many people don't have the ability to react under fire an/or the reflexes to do so. Do you really want to tell them "you can't play this RPG because you're not a good at shooter games"?

Nope, I don't think this at all. An on-demand pause function as an option for the reasons you just mentioned would be fine. I'd rather it not be forced into the game play though. It's implied a pause option isn't forced but it might not be a safe assumption.

If, on the other hand, they want to make the best RPG they can, they shouldn’t shy away from design that leans heavily away from shooter gameplay, and design the RPG mechanics to be as strong as possible.

Fair enough. I don't consider real-time game play shooter game play though. Shooter combat to me means the player has absolute control, independent of the character strengths, weaknesses and abilities. Success and failure in combat is reduced completely down to player ability. Shooter game play tends to feature limited story and character development considerations, and focuses on combat against a plethora of opponents almost exclusively. I'm still under the impression CDPR is intending to provide an RPG. The question is whether the combat is going to be completely player driven or character driven. If it's the former CP is yet another RPG/FPS hybrid attempt.

As long as the choices going into the character progression and development appropriately impact the player in combat it would suffice as RPG combat IMO. If the character cannot shoot, hack or engineer well the player cannot either. Turn based is more of a style to a game genre. There are real-time and turn based strategy games, for instance. Both of these are strategy games.

Systems involving thaco, dice rolls, hit/miss/critical chance, etc. are one way to make the player ability in line with that of the character. It's not the only way to do it. Just because old school RPG's used these mechanisms doesn't make it RPG combat. They're just the means to get there.

Going back to W3... I'd consider the combat at least somewhat in line with RPG combat mechanics. If I change my character build it will completely alter the way I should approach combat. In other words, my character progression choices heavily dictate where I, as the player, end up strong or weak in combat. Now yes, this wouldn't be the case if I mindlessly ran into combat to button spam my attack button, while chugging potions/food to stay afloat. I don't do this because it's the definition of how to do W3 combat wrong.

I don't see why a similar setup cannot work for CP. Real-time, highly lethal, heavily character driven combat.

If someone prefers turn based or the way older RPG's decided to approach combat it is perfectly fine. I'd rather not classify these systems as RPG combat just because it's the way specific games in the RPG genre decided to approach it though. It doesn't seem fair.
 
Do you really want to tell them "you can't play this RPG because you're not a good at shooter games"?
Unless somebody is crippled, (s)he should have no problems playing an FPS-like game. And if somebody is, then it's not the game's fault.

And just because the basis of a video game is rooted in a table-top RPG doesn't mean that you can't translate it into a more action-oriented video game (which is exactly what's happening in case of CP77). Why? Because the only reason TT RPGs are turn-based is because there is no other way how to do that with PnP. It doesn't mean that a cRPG has to be turn-based by definition.

When it comes to a video game all you really need to do is to make a system that keeps the rules in check, despite of what kind of "time flow" is used for it. As a result there is no real need for having any kind of turn-based system, or an active pause or anything in a cRPG.
 
Because the only reason TT RPGs are turn-based is because there is no other way how to do that with PnP. I
You're right. Combat system in PnP simulates real fight, so if in cRPG you have system that imitates PnP combat - you play simulation of simulation of real combat. It's not argument but little observation.
 
I don't consider real-time game play shooter game play though.

It doesn’t need to be, there are plenty of ways to design it otherwise. But what we saw in the demo clearly was, and the intent was there also since they’ve hired some kind of CS guru to tune their combat.

That’s what I’m against. And it’s been kind of disjointed that they kept pressing for ”not a shooter, not a shooter”, and yet, what they showed was 50 minutes of nothing else but a shooter (at least as far a combat goes).

Shooter gameplay tends to feature limited story and character profression considerations...

I’m talking specifically and exclusively about combat (it’s a combat poll thread, afterall). Choices and features outside combat are irrelevant to how combat works.


the only reason TT RPGs are turn-based is because there is no other way how to do that with PnP

It is what it is and people tend to like it that way for how it works.
 
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