Weekly Poll 10/29/18 - Gear Rarity

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Gear Levels And Rarity, what would you like?


  • Total voters
    129
1, 6, or 7

1 because that's what I think it'll be anyway and I'm okay with that.

6 because I think that the best weapons in the game will be player-made ones, so rarity won't matter as much

7 would be cool because it would flow better with individual player style and make for a more unique playing experience
 
4 & 7. No gear rarities. They're unnecessary and too game-y. There should be a wide variety of guns that serve different purposes, with different attributes.

Some guns do more damage (and I don't mean two versions of the same gun, one of which is magically +5 damage) than others, some are more accurate, some fire extremely quickly but are horribly inaccurate, some have a massively destructive payload (grenade launcher) but slow reload speed and perhaps expensive ammunition.

Guns should be "tiered" only in terms of overall quality. Sleek corp gear vs. powerful military gear vs. street gear.

I really hope they ditch the silly concept of "rare" and "legendary" guns and weapons. It was fine in TW3 because it was a fantasy game, but here? Come on, now.
 

Tuco

Forum veteran
Itemization is basically one of my main obsessions in RPGs because it can make or break the entire progression curve and reward system, aside for being indirectly a vehicle for lore and narrative.
I have very strong opinions about how itemization should work in a RPG, especially in an open world, non-linear game, because too many games I loved were almost ruined by a poor loot and progression system (Divinity Original Sin 1 and 2 come to mind, or HELL, even The Witcher 3 itself).

In general there are things that I love, others that I hate. More than anything what I don't want is leveled gear.
ESPECIALLY when the same item is repeated in several tiers/levels with better stats (or worse: completely randomized ones). It doesn't make sense, it's not rewarding, it's immersion-breaking (constantly leading to nonsense like the end-game peashooter looted by a street thug that vastly outclasses a "top corporate weapon" looted in one of the early missions), etc, etc.
Even worse when this leveled gear is also GATED by level requirements.

For a start, as a very cornerstone of any loot system tied to a non-linear game, I think the gap in power between early-game gear and end-game "epic" stuff should never too wide. It's fine to get progressively strong loot to some extent, as long as it allows for a perceivable increase in firepower without overdoing it, but to put in clear numeric terms I don't think an end-game variation of a certain type of weapon should ever go above being five-six time more powerful than early game gear at most. Or to put it in other terms: ideally no battle should ever be "completely impossible" with a novice character (just very, VERY hard) and at the same time no low level enemy should ever become irrelevant to the point you can go AFK 5 minutes while under attack.
Just to pick a popular example of this, I think Dark Souls strikes a reasonable balance in these terms: you can get powerful enough to face end game bosses rather quickly if you know how to move, but at the same time even a couple of worthless zombies in Undead Burg can still kill rather quickly an endgame character that doesn't make any attempt to defend himself.

As a second step, each weapon should have a consistent identity: a specific model of gun should have the same stats every time you find it (bar special mods applied to it) no matter how far into the game.
Common items should be widely available and looted most of the times. Quality weapon distributed sparsely in the hands of enemies who are supposed to have them for a logic reason, and top gamma hardware should be rare and carefully placed.
Just because by the late game I'll be looking for some unique and powerful gun it doesn't mean I want to loot one at every corner of the street after shooting someone. I'm perfectly fine with looting (or even ignoring, after a while) vendor trash from the overwhelming majority of goons most of the times, because that specific time I'll find a rare or unique piece of gear it will feel SO MUCH more valuable.

What's even the point of adding "levels" to loot and characters, when then you are necessarily forced to keep escalating them across the entire game in a way that doesn't make any sense (see: mighty golem level 9 protecting an archmage tower, followed 20 hours later by angry farmers with pitchforks level 50)?
Aren't talents, perks and better gear more than enough to make you feel more powerful over time?
Hell, Breath of The Wild is an open world action adventure where you don't gain a single stat point across the entire game (except for health and stamina unlocked by shrines and STILL gear alone is more than enough to make you comically overpowered by the late game.

With these premise in mind I would love to see unique items that are remarkably more powerful than average (but also well hidden and/or hard to get). These unique weapons or piece of gears should be HAND-PLACED where it makes sense to find them and maybe even tied to a story somehow. They should never pop randomly in a loot table.
In fact, i'd be perfectly happy if there was no "loot table" at all and everything was hand-placed, but realistically I realize it may be too much to ask in a massive open world...So let's say it would be fine if the generic loot table would be composed almost entirely of just common or barely uncommon items, with rare, valuable and even unique ones added manually where they matter.

As a side note, I'd like to tell more and more developers one important thing: we really don't need to loot entire wagons of shit every two steps. It doesn't feel rewarding, it doesn't feel exciting. It's a pace-breaking mechanic, it's busywork that is made even more bothersome by the subsequent unavoidable issue of inventory management.
It doesn't even make you feel like you are constantly getting something new and exciting; if anything the opposite: it dulls the enjoyment of finding something useful, because you are constantly picking up things.

TW2 and 3 were dreadful in that sense. Let's put aside gear and consider just the common "crafting materials and junk" Why was I even looting broken rakes, piles of ashes and planks of wood?
Why "elven ruins unexplored for centuries" were filled of books about the last hot topics of Novigrad/Vizima politics?
Why peasants who couldn't feed their family had drawers filled with gems and rare and valuable alchemical reagents?
Random and overabundant placement of utility items never seem to do games any favor, frankly.

We also don't really need to replace our gear every 15 minutes. It's perfectly fine to find a good weapon and being able to stick to it even for several hours before finally finding a good replacement for it, much later into the game.
It's also nice to find items that are equally powerful alternate options of what you are using ("sidegrades", as the gaming community informally calls them) rather than constantly ramping up stats.

Dear developers, please learn the virtues of horizontal progression systems over vertical ones, and especially over "exponential" ones.

P.S. In the end I picked the 4th and 7th options, since they sound the closest one to my ideal system described above.
 
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Itemization is basically one of my main obsessions in RPGs because it can make or break the entire progression curve and reward system, aside for being indirectly a vehicle for lore and narrative.
I have very strong opinions about how itemization should work in a RPG, especially in an open world, non-linear game, because too many games I loved were almost ruined by a poor loot and progression system (Divinity Original Sin 1 and 2 come to mind, or HELL, even The Witcher 3 itself).

In general there are things that I love, others that I hate. More than anything what I don't want is leveled gear.
ESPECIALLY when the same item is repeated in several tiers/levels with better stats (or worse: completely randomized ones). It doesn't make sense, it's not rewarding, it's immersion-breaking (constantly leading to nonsense like the end-game peashooter looted by a street thug that vastly outclasses a "top corporate weapon" looted in one of the early missions), etc, etc.
Even worse when this leveled gear is also GATED by level requirements.

For a start, as a very cornerstone of any loot system tied to a non-linear game, I think the gap in power between early-game gear and end-game "epic" stuff should never too wide. It's fine to get progressively strong loot to some extent, as long as it allows for a perceivable increase in firepower without overdoing it, but to put in clear numeric terms I don't think an end-game variation of a certain type of weapon should ever go above being five-six time more powerful than early game gear at most. Or to put it in other terms: ideally no battle should ever be "completely impossible" with a novice character (just very, VERY hard) and at the same time no low level enemy should ever become irrelevant to the point you can go AFK 5 minutes while under attack.
Just to pick a popular example of this, I think Dark Souls strikes a reasonable balance in these terms: you can get powerful enough to face end game bosses rather quickly if you know how to move, but at the same time even a couple of worthless zombies in Undead Burg can still kill rather quickly an endgame character that doesn't make any attempt to defend himself.

As a second step, each weapon should have a consistent identity: a specific model of gun should have the same stats every time you find it (bar special mods applied to it) no matter how far into the game.
Common items should be widely available and looted most of the times. Quality weapon distributed sparsely in the hands of enemies who are supposed to have them for a logic reason, and top gamma hardware should be rare and carefully placed.
Just because by the late game I'll be looking for some unique and powerful gun it doesn't mean I want to loot one at every corner of the street after shooting someone. I'm perfectly fine with looting (or even ignoring, after a while) vendor trash from the overwhelming majority of goons most of the times, because that specific time I'll find a rare or unique piece of gear it will feel SO MUCH more valuable.

What's even the point of adding "levels" to loot and characters, when then you are necessarily forced to keep escalating them across the entire game in a way that doesn't make any sense (see: mighty golem level 9 protecting an archmage tower, followed 20 hours later by angry farmers with pitchforks level 50)?
Aren't talents, perks and better gear more than enough to make you feel more powerful over time?
Hell, Breath of The Wild is an open world action adventure where you don't gain a single stat point across the entire game (except for health and stamina unlocked by shrines and STILL gear alone is more than enough to make you comically overpowered by the late game.

With these premise in mind I would love to see unique items that are remarkably more powerful than average (but also well hidden and/or hard to get). These unique weapons or piece of gears should be HAND-PLACED where it makes sense to find them and maybe even tied to a story somehow. They should never pop randomly in a loot table.
In fact, i'd be perfectly happy if there was no "loot table" at all and everything was hand-placed, but realistically I realize it may be too much to ask in a massive open world...So let's say it would be fine if the generic loot table would be composed almost entirely of just common or barely uncommon items, with rare, valuable and even unique ones added manually where they matter.

As a side note, I'd like to tell more and more developers one important thing: we really don't need to loot entire wagons of shit every two steps. It doesn't feel rewarding, it doesn't feel exciting. It's a pace-breaking mechanic, it's busywork that is made even more bothersome by the subsequent unavoidable issue of inventory management.
It doesn't even make you feel like you are constantly getting something new and exciting; if anything the opposite: it dulls the enjoyment of finding something useful, because you are constantly picking up things.

TW2 and 3 were dreadful in that sense. Let's put aside gear and consider just the common "crafting materials and junk" Why was I even looting broken rakes, piles of ashes and planks of wood?
Why "elven ruins unexplored for centuries" were filled of books about the last hot topics of Novigrad/Vizima politics?
Why peasants who couldn't feed their family had drawers filled with gems and rare and valuable alchemical reagents?
Random and overabundant placement of utility items never seem to do games any favor, frankly.

We also don't really need to replace our gear every 15 minutes. It's perfectly fine to find a good weapon and being able to stick to it even for several hours before finally finding a good replacement for it, much later into the game.
It's also nice to find items that are equally powerful alternate options of what you are using ("sidegrades", as the gaming community informally calls them) rather than constantly ramping up stats.

Dear developers, please learn the virtues of horizontal progression systems over vertical ones, and especially over "exponential" ones.

P.S. In the end I picked the 4th and 7th options, since they sound the closest one to my ideal system described above.
Well said. (y)
 
I have very strong opinions about how itemization should work in a RPG, especially in an open world, non-linear game, because too many games I loved were almost ruined by a poor loot and progression system (Divinity Original Sin 1 and 2 come to mind, or HELL, even The Witcher 3 itself).
Very well said (y)

Junk loot is just that, junk loot. It's a chore not a reward.
 
4 and 7
I like Witcher 3, but the loot/weapon level system is awful:(
W.jpg
 

Tuco

Forum veteran
Just sayin' but components are not suppose to be a reward, it just for crafting purposes.
Sure, but let's be real: given that a "loot system" is intrinsically an abstraction/simplification of how crafting work, wouldn't it be better if we had to find/loot just rare valuable reagents/material, rather than any sort of common trash?

Take the alchemy system in The Witcher 3 for instance: you are constantly finding HUNDREDS of common herbs and materials when you could assume these would be available for pennies by any herbalist. At the same time there's this recurring problem in the game of rarely finding any reward that sounds worth the effort (aside from Witcher gear and potion recipes).
Quite frankly most of the times you are doing sidequest because you are interested in the narrative or the exp rather than the usefulness of the reward.

They could have easily solved both these problems at the same time with the idea of letting you gather herbs just occasionally, but making them actually rare and valuable.
Also, placement: letting you find them just in these hidden and dangerous corners of the world, rather than every-fucking-where.
It would have also offered chances to reinforce the narrative somehow. You know, shit like "I need this root for my potion, but it grows just in the depth of the largest and most crowded nekker nests. Time to track one.

Result? Not busywork gathering every few steps, no comically oversized inventory which is a nightmare to browse, the enjoyment of finding a reward that feels genuinely valuable and useful to your progression and even some bit of lore and immersion on top of that.
 
Sure, but let's be real: given that a "loot system" is intrinsically an abstraction/simplification of how crafting work, wouldn't it be better if we had to find/loot just rare valuable reagents/material, rather than any sort of common trash?

Take the alchemy system in The Witcher 3 for instance: you are constantly finding HUNDREDS of common herbs and materials when you could assume these would be available for pennies by any herbalist. At the same time there's this recurring problem in the game of rarely finding any reward that sounds worth the effort (aside from Witcher gear and potion recipes).
Quite frankly most of the times you are doing sidequest because you are interested in the narrative or the exp rather than the usefulness of the reward.

They could have easily solved both these problems at the same time with the idea of letting you gather herbs just occasionally, but making them actually rare and valuable.
Also, placement: letting you find them just in these hidden and dangerous corners of the world, rather than every-fucking-where.
It would have also offered chances to reinforce the narrative somehow. You know, shit like "I need this root for my potion, but it grows just in the depth of the largest and most crowded nekker nests. Time to track one.

Result? Not busywork gathering every few steps, no comically oversized inventory which is a nightmare to browse, the enjoyment of finding a reward that feels genuinely valuable and useful to your progression and even some bit of lore and immersion on top of that.
Just had an idea - crafting materials could be auto-looted and sent directly to an infinite-storage crafting bag. You can choose to disable notifications for picking up that sort of "loot."

Realistic? Perhaps not, but certainly less frustrating.
 

Guest 4211861

Guest
Didn't they say weapons were modular and you were to upgrade to the next version every once in a while?

That's without actually getting a new weapon, just upgrading your existing one.

I'm still hoping for in-shoulder and in-forearm guns.
 
They've said weapon are upgradable.
BUT.
It seems the primary upgrade seems to be making them either "tech" (bounce off walls), "smart" (auto aim/hit), or "penetrating" (shoot thru walls). All of which are totally unrealistic "gamey" functions.
 
They've said weapon are upgradable.
BUT.
It seems the primary upgrade seems to be making them either "tech" (bounce off walls), "smart" (auto aim/hit), or "penetrating" (shoot thru walls). All of which are totally unrealistic "gamey" functions.

Not really "gamey," just not within the tech limitations of the setting. Bouncing ammunition can be done with properly-designed electromagnetic fields surrounding the ammunition, smart ammunition can be done with miniaturized missiles, and penetrating is pretty standard for gauss/railgun/phasing weapons. Needless to say, mostly not technology that would even be in the game and certainly not technology V should ever be able to get their hands on.
 
Well, it that thing is used against you and you kill the guy using it...
Wish more games did it this way. Kill a guy, and you can take all his stuff if you want. Including his clothes, weapons, etc.

Of course, you don't have to. But you can.

It's also one reason PnPs are so cool. I like screwing with my DM by asking him what someone was wearing, and then telling him I want to take everything. :)
 
I'm kinda really doubting V will be enough of a pain in the ass for them to deploy railguns against :p

Well, there is the demo, and a good techie V should be able to do something with what the boss was using.
And you should remember that V is at least Batman level, doing jobs which should require a group of solo to normally do.
She is legendary level from the start.
 
Well, there is the demo, and a good techie V should be able to do something with what the boss was using.
And you should remember that V is at least Batman level, doing jobs which should require a group of solo to normally do.
She is legendary level from the start.

If you don't mind, could you give me an example of a mission that a solo... solo would undergo? Maybe a simple "sneak in, grab girl, sneak out"? Or is it even simpler than that, where they are just assassinating some lone street thug?

I'm not being facetious or anything, I am genuinely curious. I haven't played 2020.
 
If you don't mind, could you give me an example of a mission that a solo... solo would undergo? Maybe a simple "sneak in, grab girl, sneak out"? Or is it even simpler than that, where they are just assassinating some lone street thug?

I'm not being facetious or anything, I am genuinely curious. I haven't played 2020.

Well, same a now IRL: bodyguard, hired killer, that kind of job.
"Sneak in, grab girl, sneak out", outside of a poor family girl (not nomad poor family girl I should add) shouldn't be done alone as there may be complications quite easely.
 
Well, same a now IRL: bodyguard, hired killer, that kind of job.
"Sneak in, grab girl, sneak out", outside of a poor family girl (not nomad poor family girl I should add) shouldn't be done alone as there may be complications quite easely.
Cool, thanks, that makes sense.
 
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