Weekly Poll 11/18/18 - Skills!

[Sardukhar]

Firing a missile or grenade launcher too close to your position, or accidentally dropping a grenade at your own feet. Or one-shotting someone on your side.

At least, that's the only time I've ever seen it.

Oh, so many ways. In Cyberpunk 2020, 40% of the time a crit fail is just a miss.

After that..

Spoiler

So you could have the PC trip and fall over or run into a wall ( heh), maybe stab themselves. Set fire to the device they were working on or have it attack them. Maybe electrocute passers-bye?

You could give them totally wrong info on an Awareness check or false info about an object that doesn't go accurate until you try to convince the Fixer it really -is- an EMG Railgun and not, you know, a metal pipe with taser attached.

You could have people go hostile ( obvious) or secretly hostile or have them quietly call the cops. Mocking laughter would be an option.

I like cars that spontaneously catch fire. Shouldn't have blown that Drive or Repair roll so badly earlier!

Cyberware that catches on fire is also good. Ooooh! Also crafted drugs on fire!

I may have a theme to my crit fails...

 

[BaalNergal]

Oh, so many ways. In Cyberpunk 2020, 40% of the time a crit fail is just a miss.

After that..

Spoiler

View attachment 10984153

So you could have the PC trip and fall over or run into a wall ( heh), maybe stab themselves. Set fire to the device they were working on or have it attack them. Maybe electrocute passers-bye?

You could give them totally wrong info on an Awareness check or false info about an object that doesn't go accurate until you try to convince the Fixer it really -is- an EMG Railgun and not, you know, a metal pipe with taser attached.

You could have people go hostile ( obvious) or secretly hostile or have them quietly call the cops. Mocking laughter would be an option.

I like cars that spontaneously catch fire. Shouldn't have blown that Drive or Repair roll so badly earlier!

Cyberware that catches on fire is also good. Ooooh! Also crafted drugs on fire!

I may have a theme to my crit fails...

Well, the question was about critical failures in FPP, not in the tabletop game.

The tabletop game has a large variety of options, and creativity adds far more.

FPP, on the other hand, I have seen boil down to human stupidity as far as how critical failures have worked. And even then, it's always been limited as far as impact.

Though, I will admit I've seen a couple times where some of the less-intelligent options were done out of pure spite. Someone sneak up on you with a shotgun? Rocket to their face. It'll kill you anyway, but you'll take them with you rather than simply dying to the shotgun blast.

I'm kinda worried the FPP side may override the tabletop origins on this.

 

[Suhiira]

Tabletop REALLY depends on your GM, as they tend to set the "tone" of the game. Some are very over-the-top, others by-the-book, and others try to interject some "reason" (what they see as reason anyway) into the game. Each tabletop game is very unique (unless everyone in it is a rules lawyer) so it's really hard to compare any video game to a tabletop one. Video games are always very restricted in terms of what you can do, because it all has to be pre-designed and coded.

 

[Sardukhar]

Well, the question was about critical failures in FPP, not in the tabletop game.

I know.

All the suggestions I made are FPP doable. And funny.

I would especially like to see a HUD message scrolling past saying "Warning: you are on fire. Please Stop Drop and Roll. Warning:..."

 

[Guest 4211861]

Just let me punch enemies.

 

[Sardukhar]

Also I see this term, "soft-gated" for skills.

Now, to mean this means your skill can get you past the gate if you roll well. So, percentage based.

Is that what it means to others?

 

[BaalNergal]

Also I see this term, "soft-gated" for skills.

Now, to mean this means your skill can get you past the gate if you roll well. So, percentage based.

Is that what it means to others?

Well, a hard gate is "you must do this or you simply cannot pass."

A soft gate is, "this is a recommendation, but not required."

So, for example, progression across a map: A hard gate would require you to complete a quest to access an area, and a soft gate would have enemies at a certain level. Until they did scaling enemies, WoW was an excellent example of soft gating.

In this case... A percentage is a possible soft gate for skills, but not the only one. It could also mean that instead a player has to complete a quest, talk to someone else, or find some trick to get past the area. It doesn't mean that the player can't do it, just that it won't be as easy minus the skills.

It's like... A great example is the No Stone Unturned quest from Skyrim. Becoming a member of the Thieves Guild is a hard gate; you can't complete part of the quest without it. But finding out you need to talk to the Thieves Guild is a soft gate; there are multiple ways to find out you need to talk to the guild.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Also I see this term, "soft-gated" for skills.

Now, to mean this means your skill can get you past the gate if you roll well. So, percentage based.

Is that what it means to others?

I use it to mean that the gate does not prevent further action, just hinders it according to what ever the rules say.

For example, the skill and strength requirements for weapons in Fallout New Vegas are soft gates.

 

[Rawls]

Is that what it means to others?

A lot of the time yes. There are times when there are other mechanics used, but normally it's % checks.

 

[Suhiira]

Also I see this term, "soft-gated" for skills.
Now, to mean this means your skill can get you past the gate if you roll well. So, percentage based.
Is that what it means to others?

I use it to mean that the gate does not prevent further action, just hinders it according to what ever the rules say.
For example, the skill and strength requirements for weapons in Fallout New Vegas are soft gates.

I'd go with kofe. The example he gave sounds good. Lower then "required" strength in Fallout NV doesn't prohibit you from using a weapon, just gives you a negative modifier "to hit".

 

[Sardukhar]

Has anyone seen NHL, the videogame? They have both stat/skills and player interaction. these stat/skills affect how well players shoot, pass, goaltend, etc. Still quite interactive.

The skills are 1 to 100.

Now this is 3rd person isometric realtime with a whole team, but Daemion reports that although skill of the console player is important, skills of the character are also vital.

The skills in this game open up opportunities - easier passes, better shots on goal - that the player then capitalizes on.

They used to have perks, but don't anymore. FIFA still has perks.

Instead of perks in NHL, they use personality chemistry with each other, but Daemion thinks FIFA and it's perks and skills is a better system.

Now I mention this because it's a super-popular franchise ( FIFA and NHL both) with players who don't think of themselves as role-players, but in terms of technical pass/fail actions, I see a lot of that happening and the character skills are enhancing player skills - or even drastically limiting their chance of success.

And people don't seem to mind have their ability shoot accurately limited by the game.

 

[BaalNergal]

Has anyone seen NHL, the videogame? They have both stat/skills and player interaction. these stat/skills affect how well players shoot, pass, goaltend, etc. Still quite interactive.

The skills are 1 to 100.

Now this is 3rd person isometric realtime with a whole team, but Daemion reports that although skill of the console player is important, skills of the character are also vital.

The skills in this game open up opportunities - easier passes, better shots on goal - that the player then capitalizes on.

They used to have perks, but don't anymore. FIFA still has perks.

Instead of perks in NHL, they use personality chemistry with each other, but Daemion thinks FIFA and it's perks and skills is a better system.

Now I mention this because it's a super-popular franchise ( FIFA and NHL both) with players who don't think of themselves as role-players, but in terms of technical pass/fail actions, I see a lot of that happening and the character skills are enhancing player skills - or even drastically limiting their chance of success.

And people don't seem to mind have their ability shoot accurately limited by the game.

Having accuracy affected by skills is pretty standard for many isometric games, regardless of actual genre. X-COM, Shadowrun Returns, Wasteland 2, and even Warcraft 3 all had skills show up. That's just a quirk of that particular perspective. The exceptions are usually strategy games, like StarCraft 2 and Civilization.

With FPP, player skill overriding game skill is the quirk in play.

So, really, that's kinda a good argument for doing CP2077 as an isometric game, not for skills overriding player accuracy.

 

[Sardukhar]

Having accuracy affected by skills is pretty standard for many isometric games...
So, really, that's kinda a good argument for doing CP2077 as an isometric game, not for skills overriding player accuracy.

Your argument is that Game Type A does this, so it's a quirk of Game Type A? That's a design decision, not a quirk. And it's not limited or constrained by one or more types of games.

My point is that people seem to quite enjoy this in NHL and FIFA - sometimes it's frustrating, but not crippling, apparently.

Maybe the issue is really closed minds and the human tendency to categorize, label and limit.

Done right, I can't see any design-based reason it couldn't work on skills in 2077. Higher the skill, the better your chance adn easier it is to succeed, rendered by a cool graphics overlay perhaps.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Higher the skill, the better your chance adn easier it is to succeed, rendered by a cool graphics overlay perhaps.

That's pretty much what I've been advocating for the past.... I've lost count.

 

[Sardukhar]

That's pretty much what I've been advocating for the past.... I've lost count.

I counted.

538 times to date. I count your above post.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I counted.

538 times to date. I count your above post.

That's lower than I expected. Gotta up the pace.

 

[BaalNergal]

Your argument is that Game Type A does this, so it's a quirk of Game Type A? That's a design decision, not a quirk. And it's not limited or constrained by one or more types of games.

My point is that people seem to quite enjoy this in NHL and FIFA - sometimes it's frustrating, but not crippling, apparently.

Maybe the issue is really closed minds and the human tendency to categorize, label and limit.

Done right, I can't see any design-based reason it couldn't work on skills in 2077. Higher the skill, the better your chance adn easier it is to succeed, rendered by a cool graphics overlay perhaps.

And yet, despite the fact arguments like the one you are making have been made for going-on fifteen years (that I'm aware of), the video game developers still treat it as though it is a quirk and not simply a design decision, and as a result it very much is limited by one or more types of games.

The problem that irks me about gaming is that not all of the limitations on design decisions are based on technical limitations; some of them were design customs that have since become unwritten rules.

And whether or not either of us agree with the rules as they exist does not change that they will continue to restrain video game creativity until inescapable necessity forces change. As it stands with all social customs and unwritten rules of society.

Does it have to make any sense to those of us outside the system? Nope. It just has to exist.

And I apologize if this sounds a bit aggressive. I'm irritated that the best reply I can give you is "this is how it is" and that there's really no logical reason why it is this way.

 

[Sardukhar]

And I apologize if this sounds a bit aggressive. I'm irritated that the best reply I can give you is "this is how it is" and that there's really no logical reason why it is this way.

Money.

Because games like Alpha Protocol and Vampire Bloodlines don't do as well as they should. Even DX1 which had some of these systems was rapidly changed in the sequels.

People and critics love games that are easy to get into, highly immersive and relatively slick.

 

[Hoeya]

Gun jamming might be cool, or something like that. However, I'd say that critical failures should be a relatively rare occurrence in gunplay. Always a chance, but not quite as high as 1 in 20. Just something to be concerned about. Perhaps it could be tied to weapon quality. It'd be a really neat thing to have happen at the wrong moment.

As far as other skill checks? Not really interested in conversational ones, or anything that requires some user imput. Any skill that's push and go, I have no problem with failures.

 

[SigilFey]

Me says the 4, the 6, and the 8.

But, I'll add that perks should also come with a pout. If I gain a special ability, it should come with a cost in another area. For example, say something like:

Fast Talker -- You know how to say what they want and get what you want. Gain something extra on any critical success during dialogue. However, those who prefer upfront business will not be impressed. If you fail a dialogue check against such a person, it'll cost you.

Security Magician -- Bypassing security systems is as much intuition as it is know-how, and you have a knack for smelling out hidden trapdoors and lockouts. Gain a free attempt to hack a security system if you trigger an alarm. Keep sharp though, your unwillingness to simply follow established procedures means you're 50% more likely to find the trouble you're looking for.

Focused Strike -- You hit like someone twice your size. Any time you execute a charged attack during melee, you'll cause an additional 30% base damage and double your critical hit chance. It's all about the balance between strength and speed, conserving energy, and waiting for your moment. Normal melee damage and attack rate are reduced by 30%.