Weekly Poll 3/11/19 - Boss Fights.

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Boss fights


  • Total voters
    123
People one point that a lot of you seem to be forgetting, what if the boss got a full modification of the skin to make it bulletproof, yeah you can damage him because being hit by a bullet is tough and even people with bulletproof vest said the impact is like being kicked by a horse, but you can not penetrate with normal bullets. yeah in settings like the division (and its sequel) it does not make sense, the division is set up in modern day and really people do not have bulletproof skin, this is a cyberpunk game, some people will go to extreme measures to modify themselves, Having bosses and some fights just become fights of attrition is not an issue, So for myself I do not mind a tough battle of attrition or if the bosses are bulletspoonges, in the current setting of cyberpunk 2077 it does make sense. example:

Hey I just shoot the guy 20 bullets and i did nothing.

Other modern day games (call of duty, the division, tom clancy): oh its a bullet sponge boss, there is no way a normal person can get shot 20 times and survive.
Cyberpunk 2077: **** its a guy with bulletproof skin and reinforced internal organs, simple bullets will not work.

Complaining about boss battles and how they break immersion, and all that kind of stuff, AT THIS TYPE OF GAME?

Do you understand that this is a cyberpunk game that features body modifications that can be extreme, I would be dissapointed if there is not several bosses who are bullet sponges simply because they got the necessary implants and modifications to their bodies, you could even have gimmick bosses like full stealth simply because the bastard got the money and contacts to get the right modifications, even though some modifications could be illegal, but hey in this kind of world if you cannot get it legally there is a black market.

Also one detail the first trailer the one with the chick that had synthetic arms (the arms with claws) the one that came out in 2013, she had bulletproof skin you can see it she got shoot in the face, the bullet disintegrated only leaving a smudge, pretty much the same effect as if a bullet had hit the armor of a tank, that's bulletproof skin.

I fully expect and hope to see bullet sponges in this game, I will enjoy and get a thrill out of fighting every kind of boss that they put in the game, this is a genre that is perfectly compatible to make a game, since most bosses and their abilities can be explained by getting the right combination of implants and modifications, to those that complaint about bosses that are bullet sponges, in any other game i would be there with you and support you, but in cyberpunk 2077, bullet sponge bosses are actually part of the immersion, these are guys that got the "Tank Modification Pack" on your closest dealer store, so sadly in this game i will not support those that complain that a bullet sponge breaks the immersion, because if you say that it pretty much shows that you do not understand the cyberpunk genre.
 
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A cRPG where i believe has been said that a non-combat approach is just as viable. All the more reason "bosses" in a traditional PoE, Diablo, Dark Souls, and yes even The Witcher 3 since if we're to associate Geralt to any type of character in Cp2077 he would be a Solo, and thus the game was tailored to that specific play-style through the options given to the player in resolving a fight, would be completely out of place. You can't expect a Netrunner to go toe to toe with an enemy who can hand it to a Solo, not without major changes to the approach, changes that include but are not limited to not being detected.

Precisely. The devs have hinted that other playstyles (hacking, teching etc) should be viable options in CP2077. If you look carefully, in the stats that V had in the screens that showcased character creation, she had high intelligence and low 'bodily' stats. This kind of hinted at hacking/decking/netrunning/whatever its called here (I always mix that up between scifi games).

If you want to play such a character thats more of a hacker, you obviously won't be as good in combat. So the same boss encounter needs to be doable in some other way. TBH CDPR has sort of hinted that they are going for exactly this route (multiple ways to play a character and to solve missions), in which case I am perfectly fine with whatever they come up with.

ps. I however hope devs don't include full bodyhacking... That opens up a whole different can of plot-hole worms.
 
5 and 9. Never played Deus Ex, but I like the idea of not needing to fight every time.
As for 5, there should be multiple viable strategies for the player to discover, or come up with. Straightforward or complex, obvious or creative; variety is a must, otherwise the fights will get boring fast.
 
The way you tackle boss fight should have only one way to defeat him/her. There should be many to defeat them.

Maybe you use dialogue options to convince them to not fight you. Or break piece of building during the fight and it lands on them killing or you use your car to push them off a cliff.
 
I'm of the opinion that if they're basically human, then, they should fall down with about as much effort as any other basic human. With that, there's the old Saturday morning Kung and Fu theater model where one must fight the whole Kung and Fu school of underlings, henchmen, and under-bosses that surround and protect the "Master", but, that's not too terribly accurate in the sense that the "Master" has some gimmick weak spot, and is otherwise invulnerable without having a training and preparation montage, sometimes with a quest to find out how to defeat the "Master".
This is a game with guns and bullets, so, if they're basically human, then, they should fall down just like any other human with about as much direct effort. Certainly factors like armor, exosuits, Complete Body Replacement, and shields should have some effect, but, to what degree is a matter of debate, though, I'd prefer something approaching plausibility.

Alternatively, for more video-gamey type bosses, CP 2077 takes place in a technologically sophisticated world where Virtual Reality worlds exist on the net, and, perhaps, private networks and private world spaces. More exaggerated, video-gamey, and even outright cartoon worlds and mechanics could quite plausibly exist and be applied to such virtual reality spaces.
Some villain could model their whole Information Security System after Cuphead. or something similar and it'd be totally acceptable IMO.

As such, I think that CP 2077 presents an opportunity to showcase a variety and range of different solutions to the old "boss fight" model, and even give us some memorable moments that are departures from the "real" world of CP 2077, but, still rooted plausibly within it.

Edit: What I hope we don't see, is a uniform mechanic and look for ALL virtual reality/net spaces. Certainly there should be some contextually rooted standard for general-use virtual reality spaces, but, as is with the real world, there's a host of variable OS platforms and flavors of those, plus, with information security itself, there are package deal solutions licensed, but, also, in some cases, there are proprietary, custom, one-off solutions.
I look forward to some variable looks and feels across a range of different virtual realities, but, suspect that's a tall order and like any other game that's had a "cyberspace", it'll all pretty much look the same with only minimal variation. :(

:)
 
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4, 9. As essential alternatives to boss fighting.

Frankly, I'm too old for quake/ds-style boss battles.
 
People one point that a lot of you seem to be forgetting, what if the boss got a full modification of the skin to make it bulletproof <clip>
Unless you're a full borg with significantly enhanced strength there's no such thing as bulletproof armor a human can actually wear and be able to move in.

Resistant?
Hell yes!
Proof?
No.

Even body armor insert plates made of metal will only stop/slow so many rounds (the number depends on caliber and velocity) before they fail. It takes about 15mm of hardened steel to stop a non-armor piercing 7.62x51 NATO round, about 20mm for AP. At 118kg/260# per square meter of 15mm steel (and the human body has about 1.7m2 of surface area) it's hardly practical.
 
Unless you're a full borg with significantly enhanced strength there's no such thing as bulletproof armor a human can actually wear and be able to move in.

Resistant?
Hell yes!
Proof?
No.

Even body armor insert plates made of metal will only stop/slow so many rounds (the number depends on caliber and velocity) before they fail. It takes about 15mm of hardened steel to stop a non-armor piercing 7.62x51 NATO round, about 20mm for AP. At 118kg/260# per square meter of 15mm steel (and the human body has about 1.7m2 of surface area) it's hardly practical.

Cyberpunk is technological fantasy, technology is so advanced that it can look like magic and work like it, please go and watch the first trailer the one that CDPR released in 2013, the girl in that trailer has pretty much the equivalent of bulletproof skin.

How is it possible? no clue. It is part of the genre and it is a game, trying to use modern concepts when we are talking about this, well you are only spoiling yourself, the genre does need a certain suspension of disbelief, and some of it is that science has advanced so much that bulletproof skin is available even if current tech cannot do it.
 
Kind of related
I'm of the opinion that if they're basically human, then, they should fall down with about as much effort as any other basic human.

Well it can be that neither player nor the boss count as "normal humans". This is Cyberpunk after all. There was basically bulletproof skin exhibited in the 2012 teaser trailer as a bullet shatters across the cheek of the blade-girl.

However, if the boss is a huge bullet sponge, it raises the immersion-breaking question: "If he can take that much damage, why can't I?": This is what bugs me about most about such bossfights.
 
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Cyberpunk is technological fantasy, technology is so advanced that it can look like magic and work like it, please go and watch the first trailer the one that CDPR released in 2013, the girl in that trailer has pretty much the equivalent of bulletproof skin.

How is it possible? no clue. It is part of the genre and it is a game, trying to use modern concepts when we are talking about this, well you are only spoiling yourself, the genre does need a certain suspension of disbelief, and some of it is that science has advanced so much that bulletproof skin is available even if current tech cannot do it.
the bulletproof skin in CP2020 is called skinwave and as suhira said, it doesn't make you invincible, it just adds some resistance to bullets. In the 2012 trailer the girl's skin is damaged by each bullet. More than a couple in the head and she's dead anyway. Regarding technology, if bulletproof skin is available, weapons against it must be available as weel. It's the first thing that realistically should be developed to counter that.
Meaning that I'm fine if some enemies have skinwave and become a little bullet spongey (a little, not like destiny or the division's enemies at launch), but the vast majority of enemies should die with few bullets of a non leveled weapon that was mass produced in assembly lines. If they decide to go for a TW3 approach with level 7 kang tao smart gun dealing more DMG than a level 4 kang tao smart gun, but less than a level 7 EPIC kang tao smart gun, then fuck immersion and they can have unicors and dragons in night city's streets.
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It takes about 15mm of hardened steel to stop a non-armor piercing 7.62x51 NATO round, about 20mm for AP. At 118kg/260# per square meter of 15mm steel (and the human body has about 1.7m2 of surface area) it's hardly practical.
I LOVE when there's an expert of some field and brings specific data to support the discussion. :ok:
 
Kind of related


Well it can be that neither player nor the boss count as "normal humans". This is Cyberpunk after all. There was basically bulletproof skin exhibited in the 2012 teaser trailer as a bullet shatters across the cheek of the blade-girl.

However, if the boss is a huge bullet sponge, it raises the immersion-breaking question: "If he can take that much damage, why can't I?": This is what bugs me about most about such bossfights.

The other question that comes to mind is, you, as a character, live in a world where "bullet proof" people exist, yet, no one has invented depleted uranium armor piercing ammunition in this universe? ... and you're in a line of business where such an ammunition type. or equivalent, would likely be something you buy in bulk, and all the more so with the proliferation of black and grey markets more common in the Cyberpunk world than modern day real-world Starbucks.
 
The point is that whenever people talk about "bulletproof" it tends to refer to common bullets, examples of real life are the bulletproof vest, in any case marketing can blast the advertisement as "bulletproof skin" but at the end there are most probably types of ammo and other weapons who can damage it, they are just higher tier, as a person in a previous post said, there could be armor piercing bullets specifically made for this purpose.

Also about the point i saw about "why if a boss is so tanky, why i cannot be that tanky?" it depends, the developer might not explain it all and that would make it immersion breaking, but there could be answers, examples i can imagine:

"Without the proper procedures and drugs doing a whole body modification will make you go insane, only people that had signed a contract where they have sold their lives to a megacorp are given the appropiate treatment to get the "Tank Modification Pack" without going insane."

Obviously since the story that CDPR is putting us into is this free-runner who puts more value on her liberty than anything else, she won't sell her freedom just to get the "Tank Mod".

In any case my original purpose with my post was that there could exist bosses that are bullet sponges and that they could fit in this world, how can you defeat those bosses, i'm quite sure CDPR will make it so that there are multiple methods, like using melee weapons, or using special bullets that are more expensive, flamethrowers could work too specially if they are hot enough to melt the enemy, or well the brute force approach and throw 1000+ normal bullets at him until he dies out of a cerebral hemorrage due to a concussion.

In any case most of what we are debating about is speculation, until the game comes out we won't know what it is in it and for myself i'm waiting eagerly for the day it releases, so lets try and not get too carried away with the discussion, it could be that there is not a single bullet sponge boss in the game and our entire discussion is pointless, or there could be some and CDPR has surprises in store for us.
 
Cyberpunk is technological fantasy, technology is so advanced that it can look like magic and work like it, please go and watch the first trailer the one that CDPR released in 2013, the girl in that trailer has pretty much the equivalent of bulletproof skin.

How is it possible? no clue. It is part of the genre and it is a game, trying to use modern concepts when we are talking about this, well you are only spoiling yourself, the genre does need a certain suspension of disbelief, and some of it is that science has advanced so much that bulletproof skin is available even if current tech cannot do it.
Then let's add phasers and winged unicorns too ...

If you're going to have a fantasy game, like say Shadowrun, then I totally agree, no limits but your imagination.
But if you want a science fiction game, like CP2020, then you need to be able to explain (in general) how and why things work the way they do. And "It's 2077 science performed physics defying miracles" isn't an answer.

And BTW, the girl in the 2013 trailer was pretty much a full borg conversion.
 
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Then let's add phasers and winged unicorns too ...

If you're going to have a fantasy game, like say Shadowrun, then I totally agree, no limits but your imagination.
But if you want a science fiction game, like CP2020, then you need to be able to explain (in general) how and why things work the way they do. And "It's 2077 science performed physics defying miracles" isn't an answer.

And BTW, the girl in the 2013 trailer was pretty much a full borg conversion.

First do remember i'm a fan, i can think around 5 or 6 explanations of why and make it work (not the point of the post), i'm not an employee of CDPR, they are the ones making the game, Second i'm making speculations, everything i said could be wrong, and by the same token everything that you are saying could also be wrong, until the game comes out we won't know.

Last point, definitions, the definition that you are using for science fiction is the one for "Hard Science Fiction" there are other more forgiving definitions of the term, obviously we could argue about this for the entire day, in any case if you want a detailed spreadsheet of every single fact of the world go ahead and ask it from CDPR, me i will enjoy my suspension of disbelief and enjoy the game. Oh and the "full borg conversion" is your own term for something that could be an everyday event in this world of CDPR, do remember this is not star trek.
 
Oh and the "full borg conversion" is your own term for something that could be an everyday event in this world of CDPR, do remember this is not star trek.
Given the cost in terms of money and humanity I rather doubt full conversions are at all common.

Lots of people own cars, very few own a Lamborgini or Rolls Royce.
 
Oh and the "full borg conversion" is your own term for something that could be an everyday event in this world of CDPR, do remember this is not star trek.

1. It's not just her own term. It's another version of the term Full Body Replacement from Cyberpunk 2020. From Chrome 2:

"Full Conversion - because sometimes meat just can't cut it." Chrome 2, page 63.

2. It's not Star Trek because the tech is trying to be not-far-from-now, unlike Star Trek.

Full Conversion Cyborgs are, in the world of Cyberpunk 2020, very very very rare. Along with Assisted Combat Personnel Armour, they would definitely fit the definition of a Boss Fight - at least the combat models would.

Although we don't know the tech level of 2077, it's in the same world and the footage we've seen shows tech no more advanced than that in 2020. Actually, not even as advanced as some of the more cutting edge stuff in 2020.

I would bet on bullet-sponge bosses, probably based on FBR tech. Meh. Bullet sponges. Meh.
 
I would bet on bullet-sponge bosses, probably based on FBR tech. Meh. Bullet sponges. Meh.
Well, Royce did have some sort of "force field" in the 48-minute demo and we have heard something about a "katana that deflects bullets". NO clue how either works. Lead is non-magnetic and copper pathetically weak so it can't be that. Any field powerful enough to stop the speeding bullet is going to wreak havoc with the non-bullet surroundings ... the wires in the walls, the nails holding the ceiling and floor together ... little things like that.
 
I went with 4,5 and 6. As long as I don't have to do something like that Kayran fight in TW2 and kept hearing 'Use the Yrden! use the Yrden!, I'm pretty much good with boss fights. Side note, I have not used the 'Yrden' sign since, even in TW3. Just sayin...

After taking care of Mr./Mrs Kayran, the rest of the game and boss fights was easy, and that fight was at the start of the game.
 
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