Weekly Poll 3/11/19 - Boss Fights.

[Snowflakez]

After thinking about it more, I don't mind boss fights so much. However, they shouldn't be forced like they were in Deus Ex. I shouldn't get heavily punished for going for a less combat-centric build. There should be ways to avoid the fight entirely (even if they take longer/are more challenging) or approach it in a way other than "shooty bang bang till he's dead". If they're bullet sponges... Whatever, as long as there's A. a justification for it and B. a way to tone down the spongienss (taking out his shields or something).

Regular enemies SHOULD NOT be bullet sponges under any circumstances... If a "level 64 Bandit" is taking 30+ shotgun blasts to the face, that's a problem.

This is an RPG, but RPG does != fantasy by default.

I went with 4,5 and 6. As long as I don't have to do something like that Kayran fight in TW2 and kept hearing 'Use the Yrden! use the Yrden!, I'm pretty much good with boss fights. Side note, I have not used the 'Yrden' sign since, even in TW3. Just sayin...

After taking care of Mr./Mrs Kayran, the rest of the game and boss fights was easy, and that fight was at the start of the game.

You missed out, man. The Yrden sign variant (I too never used the normal one) is extremely useful. It's basically a mini turret that also has the same anti-ghost features the standard one does. Helps keep enemies stunlocked so you can smack 'em safely.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

he Yrden sign variant (I too never used the normal one) is extremely useful. It's basically a mini turret that also has the same anti-ghost features the standard one does. Helps keep enemies stunlocked so you can smack 'em safely.

And yet quen and igni are the best choice by far in 99% of the fights. yrden for wraths, axii for enemies with shield if you're too lazy to counterattack them, aard is useful only vs fire golems (I don't know the english name). Single enemy? igni "normal mode", deals more damage then the alternative mode and instant stun-lock everybody. Group of enemies? Even better, you can stun-lock all of them at the same time and deals a shitload of DMG. A couple of those and a group of enemies doesn't even manage to get close to you before dying. As long as you match their level, of course.

The "mage" build is the weakest, though, and it's limited to quen and igni spamming (the most fun to play anyway), the other 2 builds are definetely overpower even at death march (as long as you're good at dodging, enemies deal an unfair number of DMG).

 

[ihavacoolname]

I don't agree with any of the options. I want complexity, but not a la wow. I just want them to be interesting and challenging.

 

[adanmartin60]

All that people voting number nine go to watch a disney movie or play a walking simulator instead, this is cyberpunk [Nope.].

Post edited. -Drac

 

[Snowflakez]

All that people voting number nine go to watch a disney movie or play a walking simulator instead, this is cyberpunk [Nope.].

Post edited. -Drac

It's not that we have a problem with combat or challenge, it's that it breaks immersion to have forced boss encounters when the rest of the game doesn't force you to play any particular way. If you've played the Nu-Deus Ex games, you'll understand the issue.

Obviously, we don't know how open-ended the levels in 2077 will be, but just going off of what CDPR has already said, we're leaning significantly closer to Deus Ex than The Witcher 3.

So it'd be nice to have the option of bypassing them, even if its objectively more difficult in some other way, or at least more time consuming.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

All that people voting number nine go to watch a disney movie or play a walking simulator instead, this is cyberpunk

Arcade arena bossfights are hardly a requirement.

If a mission involves a possibility for a ”boss fight”, it should come with a choice that has real weight behind it.

Maybe you wish to kill that tough guy or destroy that warmachine the other guy is driving. Go ahead, but... removing a high caliber player from the big picture might have consequences down the line. Perhaps that tough guy existing keeps certain doors open that keep a number of later missions open for you. Perhaps that warmachine you destroyed was to be used in your aid in a certain later mission that now has less conclusions and ways to get through because it’s impossible without that machine.

More over, if you can’t kill that tough guy or that war machine, or simply decide not to, you’ll need to escape or sneak past, which might lead to things happening that might not be in your favor.

Up to you how to tackle it. Fighting might be challenging and even close to impossible for the moment, but not fighting (and winning) might make your life even harder later on in certain parts.

There might always be something to lose and to gain based on your choice of approach.

 

[Sild]

Never played Deus Ex

W..wha..what are you waiting for? It's the single best alternative right now. A small taste if you will.

p.s. yes i mean the new ones, the first is good but kinda dated. Though they're a bit more stealth focused then Cp2077 from what we saw so far. Still, damn fine I-Sims.

 

[SigilFey]

4, 5, 7, and 9.

I'm hoping for a fast-and-furious challenge with bosses, and I appreciate games that require forethought and planning. That way, the resolution is intense and quick. Even if it's a set-piece, it'll play out as quickly as any other fight in the game.

The challenge should lie people playing to their character's strengths to overcome. In that regard, how a particular conflict pans out should reflect my character's abilities, including avoiding a fight altogether. For example, doesn't make much sense for a top netrunner to win a gunfight against a highly skilled solo...so why would that even be a viable option? I think it would make more sense to contact backup and lure the enemy solo into a trap. You know, the netrunner will use netrunning to defeat the boss.

Most importantly, though, I pray for no bullet-sponging. I'd rather a "boss" fight simply be a regular fight that means more.

But I also think players should not have to deal with "boss fights" if that's not the way they want to play. I've seen a fair few people that were very put off by the difficulty of certain fights in TW3. I think that "Easy" difficulty should be just that -- a breeze.

 

[imnotdigital]

I want the boss fight to be an experience apart from other challenges. I want it to feel different and special. But I also don't want it to block my progression. I have no qualms about saying I'm just not that good. I've tried to git good. I cannot. But I don't want my suck-age to water down the experience for other better players.

 

[Bloodartist]

Full Conversion Cyborgs are, in the world of Cyberpunk 2020, very very very rare. Along with Assisted Combat Personnel Armour, they would definitely fit the definition of a Boss Fight - at least the combat models would.

Which can be, unfortunately, bit unrealistic and immersion breaking to be honest. Full body conversion is the only way to increase physical performance beyond human limits (think Ghost in the Shell), because if person has simply a cybernetic arm, its anchored in human bone and excessive force will result in dislocation. The arm would just pop off the socket. Same for legs, etc. So partial cybernetics would only replicate human performance, not improve it. There is a reason why most of the famous cyborgs from popular culture (Adam Jensen, Motoko Kusanagi, Battle Angel Alita, Robocop) are full body cyborgs. (Tbh Im not sure about Jensen)

 

[Sardukhar]

Which can be, unfortunately, bit unrealistic and immersion breaking to be honest. Full body conversion is the only way to increase physical performance beyond human limits (think Ghost in the Shell), because if person has simply a cybernetic arm, its anchored in human bone and excessive force will result in dislocation. The arm would just pop off the socket. Same for legs, etc. So partial cybernetics would only replicate human performance, not improve it. There is a reason why most of the famous cyborgs from popular culture (Adam Jensen, Motoko Kusanagi, Battle Angel Alita, Robocop) are full body cyborgs. (Tbh Im not sure about Jensen)

Jensen isn't - he's a parts machine. Less so in Mankind Divided.

In Cyberpunk 2020, what you say isn't that accurate either. You can use a variety of biotech to increase reflexes, movement speed and strength beyond the human without destroying the supporting framework.

You can make the grip and impact power of a cyberlimb well beyond human with hydraulic rams built into the arm- and if you anchor the limbs with a linear frame or similar bracing, you can also raise the effective overall strength tremendously.

You can also replace both legs and the hips and gain similar more-than-human results.

Full Body Replacement takes this trend even further of course - but is actually less than some well put together cybernetics packages.

 

[Charles83]

Which can be, unfortunately, bit unrealistic and immersion breaking to be honest. Full body conversion is the only way to increase physical performance beyond human limits (think Ghost in the Shell), because if person has simply a cybernetic arm, its anchored in human bone and excessive force will result in dislocation. The arm would just pop off the socket. Same for legs, etc. So partial cybernetics would only replicate human performance, not improve it. There is a reason why most of the famous cyborgs from popular culture (Adam Jensen, Motoko Kusanagi, Battle Angel Alita, Robocop) are full body cyborgs. (Tbh Im not sure about Jensen)

I don't remember the exact book, but in one of those books that i read over the last 20 years, i saw a quote that was very unique, and yes it was in a cyberpunk genre book, the quote (and i'm paraphrasing) was pretty much "Human are underdeveloped gorillas, you can push the limits by quite a bit before reaching the breaking point", this was said in the book when one of the characters got himself a robotic (or maybe bionic) arm, and he was asking if his body could take having an arm that could lift 4 times what his normal arm could lift.

Obviously i have no clue if this is scientifically possible or even if it is proper science, it may just be a plot excuse, but hey humans are part of the ape family, having hidden potential in our bodies would not surprise me as a plot device to allow some modifications.

Obviously i support your point that if a person wants to lift 3 million tons they need a full body cyborg modification.

 

[Bloodartist]

I don't get the hate for boss fights. They create cruxes in the plot and challenges to build up to in an RPG.

I believe the main argument against bossfights is the fact that they require you to, you know, have COMBAT focus.
I've seen many try to, or ask how to, play through VtM:B without any combat (Its not possible). Some people like full social or full stealth builds. So to have a bossfight in the first place is basically directing the player toward certain type of character, thus limiting choices.

I just had a realization about bossfights which made me necro this thread slightly, sorry about that. What is the reason for the existence of bossfights? This is the important question. If bossfight acts as a gate to progress to next part of the story, it is basically obligatory. However, if bossfight is optional, in that beating it rewards you with something (better gear, scavenge cybertech from the boss, xp points etc) but isn't obligatory, then it could achieve the best of both worlds. There would be a reason to do it, but it wouldn't halt story progress if you were unable to do it. Or: even if you fail, the story would progress in a different way.

There were complaints about the obligatory bossfights in VtM:B and DE:HR. If those fights were optional things would be better I think.

 

[lelxrv]

If there's substantial variety in builds - peaceful/talker, hacker/stealth, brute force - then we definitely need variety of ways how to deal with a boss. Talk your way out, compromise battle abilities/cheat, just fight head on... If variety of builds is not drastic, means whatever you do you're still very capable offence-wise and the difference is more about type - ranged, melee, electronics or whatever - then Souls approach is better.

I certainly hope it's the former.

 

[Suhiira]

What is the reason for the existence of bossfights? This is the important question. If bossfight acts as a gate to progress to next part of the story, it is basically obligatory. However, if bossfight is optional, in that beating it rewards you with something (better gear, scavenge cybertech from the boss, xp points etc) but isn't obligatory, then it could achieve the best of both worlds. There would be a reason to do it, but it wouldn't halt story progress if you were unable to do it. Or: even if you fail, the story would progress in a different way.

Here you hit the nail on the head.
FAR to often "Boss Fights" are essential to game progression, that's just fine in a game centered around combat. It's bad game design in a game that isn't.

This goes back to other comments about the "central focus" of a game.

As en example, Fallout 4, for all that it claims to be other things is primarily a "Looter-Shooter". Kill lots of stuff and hope an epic weapon drops.

 

[CyberBobber]

I believe the main argument against bossfights is the fact that they require you to, you know, have COMBAT focus.
I've seen many try to, or ask how to, play through VtM:B without any combat (Its not possible). Some people like full social or full stealth builds. So to have a bossfight in the first place is basically directing the player toward certain type of character, thus limiting choices.

I just had a realization about bossfights which made me necro this thread slightly, sorry about that. What is the reason for the existence of bossfights? This is the important question. If bossfight acts as a gate to progress to next part of the story, it is basically obligatory. However, if bossfight is optional, in that beating it rewards you with something (better gear, scavenge cybertech from the boss, xp points etc) but isn't obligatory, then it could achieve the best of both worlds. There would be a reason to do it, but it wouldn't halt story progress if you were unable to do it. Or: even if you fail, the story would progress in a different way.

There were complaints about the obligatory bossfights in VtM:B and DE:HR. If those fights were optional things would be better I think.

I mainly dislike boss fights because my gamer ego cant handle failures, its first shot and get it done or then I cry. Like how the hell you should know how to win the dude if the game doesnt tell the mechanics. You see this dude and think hes if Kung Fu dude, but when the battle starts he start to throw some wrestling stuff.

 

[SarahGabriella]

I believe the main argument against bossfights is the fact that they require you to, you know, have COMBAT focus.
I've seen many try to, or ask how to, play through VtM:B without any combat (Its not possible). Some people like full social or full stealth builds. So to have a bossfight in the first place is basically directing the player toward certain type of character, thus limiting choices.

I just had a realization about bossfights which made me necro this thread slightly, sorry about that. What is the reason for the existence of bossfights? This is the important question. If bossfight acts as a gate to progress to next part of the story, it is basically obligatory. However, if bossfight is optional, in that beating it rewards you with something (better gear, scavenge cybertech from the boss, xp points etc) but isn't obligatory, then it could achieve the best of both worlds. There would be a reason to do it, but it wouldn't halt story progress if you were unable to do it. Or: even if you fail, the story would progress in a different way.

There were complaints about the obligatory bossfights in VtM:B and DE:HR. If those fights were optional things would be better I think.

Its a game about a vampire badass. Of course you cant talk your way out of every situation. You gotta fight at some point.

 

[SigilFey]

Its a game about a vampire badass. Of course you cant talk your way out of every situation. You gotta fight at some point.

See -- I hope not! There are these two, other, incredible survival techniques called "running away" and "intimidation". I wish more games would take that into account. I long for the games that give us character options that mean we can simply avoid combat and bypass it and/or draw our weapons and engage in an intense dialogue that cows the enemy into backing off.

I would love to play a vampire that goes into said area, attains said goals, and when the enemy arrives to overpower me...I just smirk and vanish into a fog or leap backwards out of a window and completely out of reach. I'd love to tear off into a network of streets and simply vanish into the shadows, seeing a quick cutscene of my pursuers skid to a stop in an intersection, glance about, and deflate, knowing they had lost me.

 

[Skirlasvoud]

Unless they're properly kitted out with Cybernetics, I'm more interested in what surrounds the "boss"/story critical NPC than what stats they have or how hard they are to take down. Otherwise, I'd say everyone should go down just as easily as everyone else.

Post automatically merged: May 16, 2019

I would love to play a [character] that goes into said area, attains said goals, and when the enemy arrives to overpower me...I just smirk and vanish into a fog or leap backwards out of a window and completely out of reach. I'd love to tear off into a network of streets and simply vanish into the shadows, seeing a quick cutscene of my pursuers skid to a stop in an intersection, glance about, and deflate, knowing they had lost me.

Thief 1, 2 & 3

<3

 

[MohawkGlory2077]

I'm one of those people who don't like everything to be a challenge. I like a smooth, easy, and enjoyable open world game.

That said things like difficulty, planning and preparation should be there for people who want that intricate challenge with depth, so a way to do both is probably the best set up. Maybe difficulty levels require you to do preparation to take down difficult bosses in the game.