Weekly Poll 5/11/2020 - Combat, the nitty-gritty. TTK, etc!

[Sardukhar]

View attachment 11040977
It had to come at some point.

Cheer up! It'll still be a beautiful story with a fantastic setting, even if it's not your preferred RP system method.

Go run 2020 with some friends! Then you can play the game and immerse yourself in Night City AND have the crunch and system responsiveness you crave! (This is literally what I do and will do, of course)

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Cheer up! It'll still be a beautiful story with a fantastic setting, even if it's not your preferred RP system method.

I’ll live. And get along with it.

But you know the record I’ve played and replayed here ad nauseam for the past 7 years. It’s surprisingly hard to let go of it.

 

[Sardukhar]

I’ll live. And get along with it.

But you know the record I’ve played and replayed here ad nauseam for the past 7 years. It’s surprisingly hard to let go of it.

I think I finally let got of those hopes on my second W3 play through. I realised that it is a fantastic game on it's own merits, (which I knew )even if I can't talk people into what I want them to do based on Geralt's Intimidation Skill- and never would be able to.

I am still quite interested in how they will implement these social skills in 2077, though, even if they will not be what i would prefer.

And unlike you guys, I -do- enjoy that fast, sharp combat and feel that it is one of the things lacking in PnP, the sensation of danger and adrenalin that a good in-person type game can give me. If I can walk away and have a drink in the middle of life and death combat, yeah, I'm just not that engaged.

So I look forward to 2077 having that ohcraptheyhaveachaingun feeling as I activate my Sandevistan and hope my Speeding Bullet legs get "me" there before I die. Combat immersion, immediate and sharp.

 

[metalmaniac21]

There's not much to do left to make CP2077 an RP and gameplay masterpiece - only some FNFF ruleset streamlining.

 

[Tree_Fox]

TTK of 5+ seconds is an insanely long time in a FPS. Seriously. Count 5 seconds and then imagine shooting someone for that time. Now add in a movement factor. I think 2 seconds is plenty.

crits should kill fleshy targets, armored targets should be able to take 2-3 crits. Crits should be pretty rare as well.

enemies should be able to fight in a damaged state because, c’mon, that’s just a cool feature.

and levels should reflect the complexity of a fight. Bullet sponges are too tedious.

 

[Guest 4211861]

I'm more of a melee guy now

so the combat should be Cyber Dark Souls

 

[EvilWolf]

This whole shoot-them-in-the-head-and-they-die-instantly kinda silly, I think.

In 2020 a ref will sometimes give you an automatic hit if you're on top of your enemy and call a headshot. The reasoning is that: assuming the target isn't moderately trained in martial arts there isn't exactly much they can do to respond. Disallowing one shot, to the head, kills implies that: no matter my level in stealth, no matter how close I get, no matter the angle I choose to shoot this person in the head they will get to shoot back. I find that a bit disingenuous.

 

[Sardukhar]

In 2020 a ref will sometimes give you an automatic hit if you're on top of your enemy and call a headshot. The reasoning is that: assuming the target isn't moderately trained in martial arts there isn't exactly much they can do to respond. Disallowing one shot, to the head, kills implies that: no matter my level in stealth, no matter how close I get, no matter the angle I choose to shoot this person in the head they will get to shoot back. I find that a bit disingenuous.

A Ref will not give you an automatic hit under the base 2020 rules. Your Ref may vary this, but that's up to them. Otherwise, you have to roll. Even the surest shot can miss..or crit fail.

Furthermore, although I'm against one-shot-kills in 2077 for the above reasons, I'm certainly not against one-shot-drops. You may not die in that instant from being stabbed in the head, but you may/will go into shock, be stunned, fail your death save the next round, etc.

The 2020 rules take all that into effect, actually. They also allow one-shot-kills as well, which, as I specified above, I find unrealistic - and far too common in the PnP.

Stealth in 2020 is pretty garbage in the base rules, since it goes against Awareness, gear that boosts awareness and every Solo's combat sense. The environment generally works against you, as well, unless your victim is in a convenient unlit spot.

Much like the real world, sneaking around in 2020 is done carefully, with preparation and in certain circumstances only.

 

[Nikola_Nesic]

1, 6, 7

TTK of 5 seconds is ok time to kill a targets, since combat in Cyberpunk supposed to be fast and brutal, same need to apply for melee weapons.

Crits on unarmored target need to be lethal, for armored enemy it need to depend where you shoot him, for example if he have body armor, but his head is expose then crit still need to be lethal.

Also shock/bleeding/fire need to have bigger effect, all those need to be able to take enemy out of fight and V too, if certain amount of that effect is apply on V or enemy.

 

[Suhiira]

Much like the real world, sneaking around in 2020 is done carefully, with preparation and in certain circumstances only.

That's one of many things I love about CP2020. Far to many games have essentially magical stealth mechanics.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Peoples did vote for 8, really?

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I think I finally let got of those hopes on my second W3 play through. I realised that it is a fantastic game on it's own merits, (which I knew )even if I can't talk people into what I want them to do based on Geralt's Intimidation Skill- and never would be able to.

Well, I guess I kinda hoped there would be something more to this game than more of the usual, tried and true, something that'd actually try to break new (or... new by todays standards at least) grounds. So much so, that I get hoping for it even after the 2018 demo disappointment.

I am still quite interested in how they will implement these social skills in 2077, though, even if they will not be what i would prefer.

I dunno. It seems pretty basic to me. -- [skill/requirement] "Comment line" -- with equal or superior requirement to pass.

I would've tried something different with the dialog, trying to make it a gameplay element itself instead of basic choose-a-line with "win-button" checks here and there.

And, come to think of it. They said at first, back in 2013/14/15 or something, that they used Fallout 2 as an inspiration for dialog (I think I remember them referring to the skillchecks in that game). Then, much later, they said they didn't want to gate dialog options behind stats, that it is about what you choose to say. That didn't really get a warm reception, so all of a sudden the boat turned and suddenly there were skillchecks in the dialog.

So... This is somewhat thinfoilhattery, I willfully admit it, but it almost seemed like they made a hasty correction move which is kind of underlined by how rudimentary and clumsy the check system seems ("[Tech 5/4 "That sure looks like a rigged truck to me." -- which, by the context of the scene, frighteningly sounded like "[intelligence] So you fight the good fight with your voice?").

That's not meant as a slight, mind you. Just an observation I made.

And unlike you guys, I -do- enjoy that fast, sharp combat and feel that it is one of the things lacking in PnP, the sensation of danger and adrenalin that a good in-person type game can give me. If I can walk away and have a drink in the middle of life and death combat, yeah, I'm just not that engaged.

I suppose I'm just more methodic and systemic player who enjoys more about the nuances and details than high octane action. I made countless suggestions during the years about combat systems and accessories that might take into account both groups. And I do know it's not that CDPR would scour forums for tips to pick up, they have their own ideas and principles and intents, and they're the pro's here and we are just "fans" to different degrees. But just to show that I'm not really all about turnbased combat; as has been claimed a number of times, and perhaps to showcase an idea that there is a portion of the playerbase who is more into RPG kind of gameplay instead of big action.

They did adress that to a degree with the smart guns, but that honestly didn't look like it was something interesting or fun to use to anyone, and rather looked more like a halfdesigned crutch to try and appease those who did not like the standard FPS combat they opted for. I've been vocal about it. They haven't spoken about it since that 2018 demo, so I don't know what's going on about it. Maybe nothing, maybe something. Fingers crossed (still, after all this time) for something actually interesting and perhaps even "RPG-like" (so to speak).

So I look forward to 2077 having that ohcraptheyhaveachaingun feeling as I activate my Sandevistan and hope my Speeding Bullet legs get "me" there before I die. Combat immersion, immediate and sharp.

Yeah, I can appreciate that. But am... was looking for a more nuanced execution where I can readily tell what's going on, what my characterbuild does and without losing the tension. Because optimal tension to me, does not really come from a messy panic, but rather realizing the imminent danger and my chances about handling it, even amidst the action.

I can handle the kind of shooter combat that's there. I'm just not a fan of it. High octane action games, that are dedicated to the action, definitely do it better, so I thought it would be more creative to not try to compete with them and rather do something else. But, it is what it is.

So yeah. It's been a while since the last time I wrote a wall. Felt refreshing.

 

[Sardukhar]

Yeah, I can appreciate that. But am... was looking for a more nuanced execution where I can readily tell what's going on, what my characterbuild does and without losing the tension. Because optimal tension to me, does not really come from a messy panic, but rather realizing the imminent danger and my chances about handling it, even amidst the action.

I can handle the kind of shooter combat that's there. I'm just not a fan of it. High octane action games, that are dedicated to the action, definitely do it better, so I thought it would be more creative to not try to compete with them and rather do something else. But, it is what it is.

So yeah. It's been a while since the last time I wrote a wall. Felt refreshing.

Different tensions for sure. I enjoyed(ed) the methodical planning of the fights in Shadowrun and ATOM, for example. Less and less I enjoy turnbased, though. Just too slow. RTwP is okay.

I'm not sure high octane games do it -better.-, per se. Doom Eternal, I finished on Nightmare in a few days. It was fun! But very video-game-y. Combat felt pretty silly and light. ARMA is really good, but also less than satisfying as people are too accurate and deaths far far too often - and fast.

I'm looking for something in between. Lethal(ish), exciting and fast with RP elements. I replayed Bloodlines again and had a really good time with it. I also enjoy BG2 recently, but found the combat there too removed to engage my excitement. In the end, we are our characters. BG2, I'm pretty safe and distant high above here.

I think my appreciation of fast combat is that it distracts me from realizing that fail means a reload, so the only "real" danger is just more time expended. Fast, messy combat, being closer to the real thing, makes the stakes more real for me.

Otherwise I am reminded that in the end, failure is a reload away. Also why I play Deus Ex MD on One Life Mode. But that's a whole different issue, of course.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I think my appreciation of fast combat is that it distracts me from realizing that fail means a reload, so the only "real" danger is just more time expended. Fast, messy combat, being closer to the real thing, makes the stakes more real for me.

Yeah, I get that, and it's fair.

Me, though... I'm not really looking for "realism" as such. I'm looking to have a good time playing a game. And I can suspend my disbelief past mechanics if I am having fun. So much so, that I find the original Wasteland to be far more immersive the vast majority of what's out there right now. The fun factor means that it doesn't really distract me to know that I'm playing a game while still being immersed in the situation.

 

[Sardukhar]

Yeah, I get that, and it's fair.

Me, though... I'm not really looking for "realism" as such. I'm looking to have a good time playing a game. And I can suspend my disbelief past mechanics if I am having fun. So much so, that I find the original Wasteland to be far more immersive the vast majority of what's out there right now. The fun factor means that it doesn't really distract me to know that I'm playing a game while still being immersed in the situation.

Yeah, I absolutely get that. It's why I liked WoW for many years and loved the original BG series. Also why I play ATOM right now, Underrail when I feel like suffering and tried DOS2 three times.

Cyberpunk for me has always been about realism, or near-realism. I'd never expect to worry about stun/shock, bloodloss or cornering movement and vertical sweeps in, say, Doom Eternal or Torment. Well, maybe blood loss in Torment, heh, because suffering again.

Without that feeling of could-yet-be-when-I-wake-up-tomorrow, it's just not Cyberpunk for me.

 

[Suhiira]

Cyberpunk for me has always been about realism, or near-realism. I'd never expect to worry about stun/shock, bloodloss or cornering movement and vertical sweeps in, say, Doom Eternal or Torment.

Without that feeling of could-yet-be-when-I-wake-up-tomorrow, it's just not Cyberpunk for me.

That's a large part of what makes CP2020 what it is. While it's certainly a "game" in the traditional sense (as is Monopoly etc.) it's also a pretty good simulation of a potential dystopian future. There are FAR to many skills for any one person to be truly self-sufficient, and if you get in a fight you REALLY want a friend or two nearby not only for extra firepower but also to patch you up if you get unlucky and catch a round.

CP2077 looks to be your standard shooter, one vs a horde, the horde doesn't stand a chance.

 

[Sardukhar]

That's a large part of what makes CP2020 what it is. While it's certainly a "game" in the traditional sense (as is Monopoly etc.) it's also a pretty good simulation of a potential dystopian future. There are FAR to many skills for any one person to be truly self-sufficient, and if you get in a fight you REALLY want a friend or two nearby not only for extra firepower but also to patch you up if you get unlucky and catch a round.

CP2077 looks to be your standard shooter, one vs a horde, the horde doesn't stand a chance.

Nah. Not on my diff anyway. W3 wasn't that...I died SO OFTEN if I wasn't careful and smart. When CDPR said they were making 2020 into an RPG, I thought of the murder-wolves and shuddered.

Boostergangs will get plenty of kills for anyone on harder diff. HP Bullet sponges were a thing, until you were geared.

2077 doesn't, to me, look like your standard shooter by any means. I'm not sure what you think a standard shooter is, but what I've seen of 2077 with skills, gears, augments and consequences based on in-character choices doesn't look like Call of Duty or Doom Eternal. In fact, those games have adopted RPG trappings. They now look more like role-playing games.

A standard shooter is old Doom, CoD, Hard Reset, Quake, etc. Those are "just" shooters. Cyberpunk 2077 is much much more. Your character choices will affect your combat proficiency, absolutely.

Because a game foregoes turn based combat does not make it a "standard shooter". That's simplistic in the extreme.

You can't fairly compare the Time to Kill, either, since games like X Com and Jagged Alliance have -quite- long TTK. You can literally nap. They may also require multiple hits to down enemies.

It's not as black and white as you seem bent on making it be.

 

[theg4dfly]

I think my appreciation of fast combat is that it distracts me from realizing that fail means a reload, so the only "real" danger is just more time expended. Fast, messy combat, being closer to the real thing, makes the stakes more real for me.

I like fast, messy combat as well, but mainly just because it feels more rewarding when I hit a string of headshots on multiple enemies while under fire. It's like a reward feedback loop for performing something that requires skill and quick thinking to pull off.

This is basically the alternative:
>Enemy with huge HP bar approaches...
>Take cover behind nearest block of concrete
>Fire off 10 head shots, enemy's HP drops by 20%
>Enemy is starting to get close enough to shoot me
>Run away and take cover behind a further away block of concrete
>Fire off another 10 head shots while the enemy approaches, enemy's HP drops by another 20%
>Rinse and repeat

This is unfun in my opinion. I don't even really get much of a sense of accomplishment after doing all of that, it feels like it was a chore and I'm just glad it's over at the end. Also there is a feeling of regret over how much ammo I just spent if the game has limited ammo. I think this is actually a huge complaint with Half Life: Alyx on hard difficulty (I only know this by watching a little bit of a playthrough bc I don't have VR). Seems like all the enemies have tons of health and so the gameplay is slow paced and isn't particularly fun especially when combined with the lack of ammo in the game.

 

[AdamTaylor]

I am hoping for quick firefights. I mean, as far as actual shots to kill. It might take a bit to get a clear shot and all that, but I do NOT want to see those ridiculous bullet sponge enemies like in so many games.

And I think wounds should matter. A lot.

One of my favourite systems is Shadowrun. In that setting, you have a wounds bar that shows how much total damage you can take. As you take wounds, your stats drop (because you're generally not going to be in top form after being shot up). Weapons have damage and penetration, and armour can stop some damage, but bigger guns will rip right through you. Your body armour might stop a pistol, but that shotgun's going to splatter you across the sidewalk. Combat is fast and deadly, and that's how it should be. Games where you can shoot an enemy 10 times before they drop just feel silly.

A good shot should cripple or outright kill someone (player or otherwise).

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Cyberpunk for me has always been about realism, or near-realism.

Yeah that's pretty a given in a certain sense. And I wouldn't give up on it much, but...

But there is something to be said about the presentation of that "realism" given that it is still a game to be played and understood. And supposedly not a shootergame to boot, even if it really looks like one.

I'd want to percieve the mechanical nuances and enjoy the systemic gameplay (as much as the pacing can allow) rather than flail around like a madman, missing all the details and hoping for the best result; because the latter is not good "realism" in a game, and while certainly tense and possibly even satisfyingly difficult to manage, not too good gameplay either.

And to speak of something we've seen as a moving picture so far... it does not look "realistic" at all. Or, did not... don't know what it might be right now.

There's a difference in the desired perceivance here. You have your fast paced action and quick resolutions. I'd want the action to be slower, more tactical and more systems driven. But the notion of realism and unforgivingness seems to be pretty much on the same ballbark, still.