What annoying game design trends should Cyberpunk avoid?

[Nemo1117]

Nope, I mean that if gameplay cannot make the player as good as the character stats roleplay wise, then the only solution to keep the roleplay accurate is to remove said stat, because you cannot be untrue to something you don't know.

But it depends on the player's RL skill as to whether they can match the "roleplay fantasy" no? You can't be an elite swordman in a fantasy RPG if you don't know how to stack stats to buff your sword attacks.

PS: Going off on a tangent here, so feel free to ignore this postscript. I find it odd that we are still using D&D style simulation systems for our games.

I mean, the D&D system was created around the limitations of its era - random numbers came from dices (20 sides at most before it became ridiculous), calculations were done by hand (at most with the help of a handheld calculator), simulation state was tracked by writing it down on pieces of paper with pencils, ... etc.

Today those limitations no longer exist. Even the wimpiest of desktop computers can store and process billions of numbers a second. Why do we still limit ourselves to simplistic and shallow simulations?

 

[Nicademusx]

PS: Going off on a tangent here, so feel free to ignore this postscript. I find it odd that we are still using D&D style simulation systems for our games.

I mean, the D&D system was created around the limitations of its era - random numbers came from dices (20 sides at most before it became ridiculous), calculations were done by hand (at most with the help of a handheld calculator), simulation state was tracked by writing it down on pieces of paper with pencils, ... etc.

Today those limitations no longer exist. Even the wimpiest of desktop computers can store and process billions of numbers a second. Why do we still limit ourselves to simplistic and shallow simulations?

I agree.
I'm also not familiar with cyberpunks specific stat system. Cyberpunk is originally a tabletop game.
I'm guessing that all games stem from the original (D&D) and, here's hoping, Cyberpunk's will be different than what we have grown accustomed.

Post automatically merged: Mar 21, 2020

In can be the same in the game.
Like in Mass Effect for example, which was able to be played both by action players and RPG ones because of optional active pause.

I played mass effect, I'm not sure I even knew you could pause it and aim lol

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Why do we still limit ourselves to simplistic and shallow simulations?

Because it permit to Roleplay as someone radically different that yourselves:
Playing as a 160 IQ character when you are a normally intelligent people.
Playing someone nimble and agile when yourself just keep on tripping when walking.
And the other way around actually, like missing all your shot even if you're good at FPS games because your character doesn't know how to handle a gun correctly (while actually trying to shoot things of course).

That's what roleplay is: Being able to play someone else, not just you in another setting.

Post automatically merged: Mar 21, 2020

I played mass effect, I'm not sure I even knew you could pause it and aim lol

Well, I actually remember discovering it by myself (bur very early) while using powers from the menu.

 

[Nemo1117]

Because it permit to Roleplay as someone radically different that yourselves:
Playing as a 160 IQ character when you are a normally intelligent people.
Playing someone nimble and agile when yourself just keep on tripping when walking.
And the other way around actually, like missing all your shot even if you're good at FPS games because your character doesn't know how to handle a gun correctly (while actually trying to shoot things of course).

That's what roleplay is: Being able to play someone else, not just you in another setting.

The thing is, if you take this to its logical conclusion, you end up with a visual novel. As a visual novel, you can roleplay an 160 IQ elite hacker even if you failed primary/elementary school mathematics - no numbers to manage.

Come to think of it, it would be a cute idea if instead of easy/normal/hard difficulties we have,

• Visual Novel
• D&D stats
• Full Simulation

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

The thing is, if you take this to its logical conclusion, you end up with a visual novel. As a visual novel, you can roleplay an 160 IQ elite hacker even if you failed primary/elementary school mathematics - no numbers to manage.

Visual novels have stats now?
Cause a visual novel where you could choose your stats and choose your actions would indeed be an RPG.

Come to think of it, it would be a cute idea if instead of easy/normal/hard difficulties we have,

• Visual Novel
• D&D stats
• Full Simulation

If if follow your logic I would call the last one an "action-adventure".

 

[Gun_Show]

You claim Mass Effect did it well as a non-turn-based game but never elaborated how.

Just answering the Mass Effect question. In Mass Effect 1, it was a pretty even blend of character and player skill. The aiming reticle started very wide and as skill points got allocated to that particular weapons skill, the recticle got smaller and smaller. Recoil was also affected, as each shot made the reticle grow larger; the higher the character skill, the smaller the growth and the faster the reticle shrank back to normal after firing a round.

The player still had to aim, of course, but at the lower skill levels, it was really just a case of center mass and shoot. At higher levels, you stood a good chance of getting those precision shots.

Plus you had the ability to pause, give orders to squad mates, aim and trigger powers, assess the situation and then unpause.

Mass Effect 2 and 3 got rid of that and went normal shooter mechanics (but kept the pause feature).

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

Very immersive!

 

[Guest 3842833]

Crafting. As much as I love the crafting in Witcher 3 I'd like to see it reduced in future games. What I liked about the crafting in Witcher 3 is that new items only needed to be crafted once.

 

[SigilFey]

Very immersive!

Love these guys. Their earliest ones were the best, I'd say. This is my favorite. "Stealth mechanics." (Hahahahahaha...!)

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

Love these guys. Their earliest ones were the best, I'd say. This is my favorite. "Stealth mechanics." (Hahahahahaha...!)

yep, saw it yesterday. I've done an hour long quarantine-marathon of those videos yesterday.

This is a nice video about stealth design:

 

[SigilFey]

This is a nice video about stealth design:

My favorite stealth game of all time:

Thief 2: The Metal Age

 

[sgtnasty]

Good inventory management. I want to be able to distinguish between rarity, type, modifiers quickly so I can compare gear easily. And dont use simple JPGs for icons. I want a real 3D experience on the gear. I want to be able to look at all my gear and change the skin, colors, patterns etc.

 

[SigilFey]

Good inventory management. I want to be able to distinguish between rarity, type, modifiers quickly so I can compare gear easily. And dont use simple JPGs for icons. I want a real 3D experience on the gear. I want to be able to look at all my gear and change the skin, colors, patterns etc.

I'm still waiting for an RPG that more or less does away with "looting". I'd like to be able to just focus on achieving the goals of the quest relying on my skills...not adding +0.9 DPS to my attack by picking up a red gun instead of a blue one.

Ideally, I'd also like finding better gear to feel like a signature achievement. Like the Gothic / Risen series. The overall games may be clunky as @#$%!, but one thing they definitely got right was "magical" gear. Every time I achieved a powerful weapon or armor set, I can tell you where I was, what happened, and how rewarding it felt to claim it. The "Diablo" system kind of ruined that sense of achievement, replacing it with mundane, scaled loot-loot-loot. Many RPGs today are less about why your doing something and more about what you'll probably get for it.

(Ironically, since both approaches are fun, the loot-loot-loot approach makes a sort of sense in the CP world...to an extent.)

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

I'm still waiting for an RPG that more or less does away with "looting". I'd like to be able to just focus on achieving the goals of the quest relying on my skills...not adding +0.9 DPS to my attack by picking up a red gun instead of a blue one.

Ideally, I'd also like finding better gear to feel like a signature achievement. Like the Gothic / Risen series. The overall games may be clunky as @#$%!, but one thing they definitely got right was "magical" gear. Every time I achieved a powerful weapon or armor set, I can tell you where I was, what happened, and how rewarding it felt to claim it. The "Diablo" system kind of ruined that sense of achievement, replacing it with mundane, scaled loot-loot-loot. Many RPGs today are less about why your doing something and more about what you'll probably get for it.

THIS.

 

[Nicademusx]

You mean to do away with the grind and worshipping RNGsus? The horror LMAO

 

[parasite_avi]

I'm still waiting for an RPG that more or less does away with "looting". I'd like to be able to just focus on achieving the goals of the quest relying on my skills...not adding +0.9 DPS to my attack by picking up a red gun instead of a blue one.

Ideally, I'd also like finding better gear to feel like a signature achievement. Like the Gothic / Risen series. The overall games may be clunky as @#$%!, but one thing they definitely got right was "magical" gear. Every time I achieved a powerful weapon or armor set, I can tell you where I was, what happened, and how rewarding it felt to claim it. The "Diablo" system kind of ruined that sense of achievement, replacing it with mundane, scaled loot-loot-loot. Many RPGs today are less about why your doing something and more about what you'll probably get for it.

(Ironically, since both approaches are fun, the loot-loot-loot approach makes a sort of sense in the CP world...to an extent.)

I am officially the worst RPG player of all time, but I agree so damn much.

Abundance of options and items and loot in general is kinda okay with me, I'm all down for it. At the same time, I think having all of these options just AVAILABLE instead of GAME-CHANGING or OBLIGATORY is the key here.

I can't think of a specific example right now, but I think one of the worst design decisions to avoid is the absolute necessity of certain items or upgrades; having to use a gun or a mechanic that you feel like your character would never use or at least pass down on in a given situation is definitely the opposite of any RPG (I guess). Don't get me wrong, though, there's gotta be some quest items and stuff, they give that good feel of achievement and, sometimes, a goal, I think; not having a red gun (great example, SigilFey) sometimes feel punishing, which kinda ruins the overall experience.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

I'm still waiting for an RPG that more or less does away with "looting". I'd like to be able to just focus on achieving the goals of the quest relying on my skills...not adding +0.9 DPS to my attack by picking up a red gun instead of a blue one.

I'd think this complaint encompasses two areas.

The first would be loot mechanics. The whole concept of being forced to constantly click things to pick up shinies. Clear a room of bad guys, gotta rummage through each and every corpse. Perhaps you have to pick items up off the ground too. It not only feels like busy work but can take you out of whatever you were doing in the first place. I need to go here, do this and move on. All along the way I have to spam click buttons to pick items up.

The second area is the idea of a loot treadmill. Let's take a game world and populate it with a metric ton of items. All of which provide steady increments in power. Now you spend a large part of the game stepping from one upgrade to the next. None of which provide particularly meaningful gains over the prior upgrade.

I'd agree on both counts. There has to be a better way to handle both the loot mechanics and loot progression.

 

[Rawls]

I'm still waiting for an RPG that more or less does away with "looting". I'd like to be able to just focus on achieving the goals of the quest relying on my skills...not adding +0.9 DPS to my attack by picking up a red gun instead of a blue one.

Ideally, I'd also like finding better gear to feel like a signature achievement. Like the Gothic / Risen series. The overall games may be clunky as @#$%!, but one thing they definitely got right was "magical" gear. Every time I achieved a powerful weapon or armor set, I can tell you where I was, what happened, and how rewarding it felt to claim it. The "Diablo" system kind of ruined that sense of achievement, replacing it with mundane, scaled loot-loot-loot. Many RPGs today are less about why your doing something and more about what you'll probably get for it.

(Ironically, since both approaches are fun, the loot-loot-loot approach makes a sort of sense in the CP world...to an extent.)

Yeah. It's nice when items feel unique in the world. Scaling (and leveling in general for that matter) is a less than ideal design IMO, and prioritizes gameplay balance over interesting gameplay to help compensate for some of the limitations of open world game design. Which is understandable, but definitely has downsides depending on one's preferences. I think it would be interesting to see a game that includes more unique items and branching gameplay in a modern open world game.

I feel like loot and world economy are really hard to get right in non-linear games.

 

[SigilFey]

I am officially the worst RPG player of all time, but I agree so damn much.

Abundance of options and items and loot in general is kinda okay with me, I'm all down for it. At the same time, I think having all of these options just AVAILABLE instead of GAME-CHANGING or OBLIGATORY is the key here.

I can't think of a specific example right now, but I think one of the worst design decisions to avoid is the absolute necessity of certain items or upgrades; having to use a gun or a mechanic that you feel like your character would never use or at least pass down on in a given situation is definitely the opposite of any RPG (I guess). Don't get me wrong, though, there's gotta be some quest items and stuff, they give that good feel of achievement and, sometimes, a goal, I think; not having a red gun (great example, SigilFey) sometimes feel punishing, which kinda ruins the overall experience.

Exactly. For me, it sort of blows the pacing and feel of what's going on. Rather than remaining, shall we say "in character", I'm become myself again, collecting bits and bobs and being all excited when I find that item with a purple / gold glow. It's still fun, but it feels...I guess "contrived" is the word for it. Less about really being there -- in the moment, and more about "game".

But, like I said, it doesn't ruin my whole day or anything, and I know many players can quickly lose interest if they're not receiving regular rewards during actual gameplay. Still, I feel that games like The Last Of Us and Uncharted, or the rather awesome Jedi Fallen Order prove that gameplay can be pretty epic without constant loot. (Since all of the loot in Fallen Order is cosmetic, there's no need for the player to ever open a crate.) Conversely, the gameplay area where Cal needs to get the new lightsaber crystal was amazing. What a wonderfully powerful and moving moment that was.

That's the kind of thing I'd like to see if an RPG presents me with "special gear".

I'd think this complaint encompasses two areas.

The first would be loot mechanics. The whole concept of being forced to constantly click things to pick up shinies. Clear a room of bad guys, gotta rummage through each and every corpse. Perhaps you have to pick items up off the ground too. It not only feels like busy work but can take you out of whatever you were doing in the first place. I need to go here, do this and move on. All along the way I have to spam click buttons to pick items up.

The second area is the idea of a loot treadmill. Let's take a game world and populate it with a metric ton of items. All of which provide steady increments in power. Now you spend a large part of the game stepping from one upgrade to the next. None of which provide particularly meaningful gains over the prior upgrade.

I'd agree on both counts. There has to be a better way to handle both the loot mechanics and loot progression.

Well, I didn't mean to make it sound like a complaint. More like an exploration of the energy and drive behind what has become a standard mechanic of CRPG-ing. In a sense, I think a lot of RPGs put it in there simply because of habit.

The last 4 playthroughs I did of TW3, I didn't loot unless I needed something. I'd check for magical /rare weapons occasionally, rare crafting materials, etc. -- but only if I knew there would likely be one. Aside from that, I wouldn't really even look. It really made the pacing of the game feel more fluid.

Logically: No. No, I don't need any more dog tallow. Or hides. Meat? That's gross Geralt. There's a town...right there. Just go buy a sandwich. Yes, the roasted chicken is a rip-off, but they're bound to have some bread or apples or something. Leave the dead dogs alone.

As for stripping the bodies of the people you just murdered for better stuff...it doesn't really make sense, does it? Is the armor really all that great? You just killed the guy wearing it, right? And how many people would truly buy armor or clothing that was pulled off of a corpse? I mean, sure, it had to happen in real life to some extent, but I can't imagine it was the norm. "Welcome to my shop, sir! Yes, we buy used apparel. What's that smell? Bah -- nevermind! I'll give you 160 gold for the lot."

 

[SigilFey]

I feel like loot and world economy are really hard to get right in non-linear games.

This part, too. It was nice not being loaded down with coin. Made me feel like I had better take contracts when I found them, and that was good motivation.