What CDP can learn from Bethesda/Skyrim

[n4meless1]

What CDP can learn from Bethesda/Skyrim

Skyrim is the bestselling PC title in a long time, having sold multi million copies (Tod Howards words). It broke steam record with around 280000 gamers playing it at the same time, and it has been at the top of the sales chart for a long time now. How did it happen that a multiplatform RPG have sold more copies than a PC exclusive one, which is, in my book, a better game overall? Some may think Beth marketing machinery had something to do with it, but I don't think that was crucial in any way, because there was certainly a lot of hype surrounding The Witcher 2 before it got released. I'm gonna add my two cents:

- Open world games, generally, have a lot more appeal to gamers than the linear ones (especially to PC gamers). You know that there'll be a lot of exploration, that you can immerse yourself in the game world much easily for multiple hours. Now, I'm not saying that Witcher should go full open world, because the story would definitely suffer, and we don't want that, but more like semi open, where you don't have to sacrifice the story, but allow players to explore locations; the first Witcher was very close to being that, while the second is too linear in my book (fantastic game, nonetheless). This structure would also make a lot of sense in the game, and improve Geralts monster slaying/picking herbs side activities, because of a more organic feel of the environment. If the limited resources are a problem, and you have to cut something out, leave some unnecessary dialog with some unimportant side NPCs (there were too much of that in the game IMO). Instead, focus on the important NPCs, and work some more on the believability of the world..

- Releasing the modding tools to the public is a fantastic move by Bethesda. It not only creates a strong community, adds to longevity of your product (which is a big selling point), gives ideas to the developer in building their next game (Bethesda implemented a lot of features from Oblivion mods into Skyrim, thus making the game better), but also improve your public image of a caring company in the eyes of the fans..

- Make loot/items/customization more meaningful. I used to love in my RPGs (and still do) when I find some epic sword (not like basic longsword +1), or beautiful armor.. all which have some back story, uniqueness, and that made me somehow connected to them (I know it sounds a little stupid), I wanted to use them, and did not part with them lightly. Generaly I like those things in any fantasy tale (Longclaw, Narsil, Anduril, Glamdring..), it adds to the immersion, and somehow defines a character. In Witcher games I didn't care about equipment; the only items that had some character were Aerondight (but it looked like any other silver sword), and Ravens armor. This is not in particular related to Skyrim, but in general..

There you go. I hope some of you agree with my points, and if not feel free to me if you like.

PS. Sorry for my English, I was in a hurry..

 

[Chewin3]

While open world games tend to 'cater' to a lot of people, I think that the the main reason to why Skyrim sold so well was b/c --as I already posted in another thread-- the majority of modern gamers today have a tendency to get easily bored and want instant gratification, simple mechanics and an overall shorter, faster, more visceral experience.

They don't care that much about the story, which is nothing to boast about in fact in Skyrim, but it's simply that the people want to jump into the world and do whatever they want to do. I've heard many people complain on TW1 and DA:O that they stopped playing it b/c they got bored, mostly b/c of the story. In Skyrim, you needen't even care about the story, nor do you have to advance in it to go to places and do stuff, to simply enjoy yourself.

And that's not what most RPG fans are after, and from my personal point of view, I'd say that people with that attitude aren't really epic, fantasy RPG fans at all then, and thus the game isn't made for them and thus these people aren't worth bothering with. CDPR cutting down story experience to add exploration is not a good idea, imho. Okay sure, maybe it would boost the games sales, but I still think it would be a bad move, since a part of The Witcher's strength is the story telling, for me.

 

[Dona.794]

The only thing The Witcher can learn from Bethsda is how to build the hype machine. And yes, it was HUGE - everyone was talking about Skyrim years before the release, I remember reading comments on GoG in June where people said "The Witcher 2 is a great game, but Skyrim is going to be my GOTY". June. Five months before the game even came out! People were buying so much into the hype it is ridiculous.

Bethsda has their reputation going for them: you know what you're getting. TES series have not changed since Morrowind, it is still just a big sandbox with cliché story that you may or may not follow. You do what you want, which allows for very open roleplay. Also, the game is VERY casual (I have turned it into Sims with dragons... ha), it requires very little skill to play, and you can even play it without fighting, ever. Roleplay a farmer and sell crops around Whiterun. Whatever, you can do it, create 3D Farmville if you wish. But there is very, very little depth in these games.
(edit: what Chewin3 said :>)

The open world: yes, I wish TW2 had more freeroaming. I like exploring As you said, resources are a problem, big, unique world takes time to build. Then, remember that the Witcher is story-driven, I felt bad enough doing side-quests in TW2 when I knew I had far more important things to do. Quantity doesn't mean quality and one of the reasons I can't bring myself to replay TW1 is the swamps. I just can't deal with that type of gameplay and I hate fetch quests and running back and forth between two spots. TW2 had a much smaller world, but I was never forced to spend a lot of time in one place. It is a very fast-paced game. So, open world may or may not be a good thing depending on the context

You do realise toolkit is Bethesda's priority because that's what makes their games? Content by people who actually care about creating something good? I wouldn't touch those games in their vanilla state. I doubt people would still play Morrowind if it was its initial, boring story self. CDPR has shown plenty of respect toward their fans, even more so than Bethsda. A toolkit would extend the life of their games and yes, they are going to release it... someday... but it's not necessary.

Welp I'd like better customisation. Because I like custom stuff :'D I, too, like items that have some sort of a backstory, bonus points if it's hard to obtain. Or if you can mix and match lots of armour pieces a la Morrowind, but erm heavy vanity customisation may not be everyone's cup of tea.

 

[dragonbird]

Given the number of Witcher fans who DON'T like Skyrim, I'd say that making a game that resembled Skyrim, in any meaningful way, would be an incredible mistake.

And while I would personally love to see games being brought out that "resemble The Witcher", I would think it just as much a mistake if another established and popular developer changes their model, and probably disappoints their existing fans, just because The Witcher has got good critical acclaim.

We are not all identical, we don't all want the same thing from a game. The Witcher series suits Witcher players, TES suits TES players. There should be space for both.

I agree with Dona and Chewin. A bit more space to explore would be good, but the story-telling comes first, and as development timescales and costs are both finite, I'd prefer to see another good story than a huge open world. If I want open world, I'll play an open world game.

I do agree on both the PR effort and on the toolkit. Skyrim and DA2 both showed that money spent on PR can reap benefits. A toolkit helps keep fans engaged while waiting for the next game.

 

[gregski]

- Witcher's storytelling, writing & narrative are the key features that differentiate this series from Bethesda's games. I don't think CDPR should EVER change that and go for open-world, because story & writing are their key strengths, while open world is Bethesda's thing. I also enjoy story driven games more, I'm more about sinking 40 hours in a game with substance, than 200 hours in a game without it.

- Toolkit was discussed already many times, CDPR will probably release it but not too soon. RED Engine is still new, development tools still need tweaking and adapting for "casual" users. Bethesda's engine has been pretty much the same for years, so releasing the toolkit is easy. Plus - what Dona pointed out - the toolkit for Bethesda's games is actually a must for the community. Witcher has way more replayability and I think we can live without the tools for some time.

- I agree that more items with backstory would be nice, but also not too many, so rare items remain rare.

- I agree that CDPR should really step up with their PR/hype efforts, especially when entering the new, console market.

 

[Kindo.824]

Bribe the media and brainwash the players, using a hype-machine that is out of this world, is a sure way to ensure high sales, indeed...

On a less flame-baity note, it's a different kind of game altogether. The reason The Elder Scrolls games is so hugely successful on the PC market, is that it comes with a pre-made template of an enormous, open world, and an easy-to-use tool-kit allowing for everyone to make their own changes (big and small) to the game, or simply to divulge in the changes others make available for them. The Witcher (I hope) will never be this kind of game; it will never rely on the work of the players to make it a successful title on the sales charts. The price you pay for turning a game into full and "free" open-world like Bethesda has done with their games (Fallout 3; Morrowind; Oblivion; Skyrim), is that the developers spend more time "designing" such a world, making sure it caters to these open-world specifications and what not, rather than putting focus on writing good characters and a good narrative. These things - character and narrative - are inarguably the strongest points of The Witcher games, and I would not want these aspects to be lessened in any way, and if CDP decides to go this way in order to increase sales, or whatever, I'll be a sad panda.

 

[Kaldurenik]

Skyrim is the bestselling PC title in a long time, having sold multi million copies (Tod Howards words). It broke steam record with around 280000 gamers playing it at the same time, and it has been at the top of the sales chart for a long time now. How did it happen that a multiplatform RPG have sold more copies than a PC exclusive one, which is, in my book, a better game overall? Some may think Beth marketing machinery had something to do with it, but I don't think that was crucial in any way, because there was certainly a lot of hype surrounding The Witcher 2 before it got released. I'm gonna add my two cents:

- Open world games, generally, have a lot more appeal to gamers than the linear ones (especially to PC gamers). You know that there'll be a lot of exploration, that you can immerse yourself in the game world much easily for multiple hours. Now, I'm not saying that Witcher should go full open world, because the story would definitely suffer, and we don't want that, but more like semi open, where you don't have to sacrifice the story, but allow players to explore locations; the first Witcher was very close to being that, while the second is too linear in my book (fantastic game, nonetheless). This structure would also make a lot of sense in the game, and improve Geralts monster slaying/picking herbs side activities, because of a more organic feel of the environment. If the limited resources are a problem, and you have to cut something out, leave some unnecessary dialog with some unimportant side NPCs (there were too much of that in the game IMO). Instead, focus on the important NPCs, and work some more on the believability of the world..

Aint TW2 "semi open world" Unless you meant something else?

- Releasing the modding tools to the public is a fantastic move by Bethesda. It not only creates a strong community, adds to longevity of your product (which is a big selling point), gives ideas to the developer in building their next game (Bethesda implemented a lot of features from Oblivion mods into Skyrim, thus making the game better), but also improve your public image of a caring company in the eyes of the fans..

Yes i would like to see the tools released but i doubt it will happen by now... Maybe TW3 we will see. Anyway beth have to release the tools because the community need to fix the game (No its not a joke im dead serious).

- Make loot/items/customization more meaningful. I used to love in my RPGs (and still do) when I find some epic sword (not like basic longsword +1), or beautiful armor.. all which have some back story, uniqueness, and that made me somehow connected to them (I know it sounds a little stupid), I wanted to use them, and did not part with them lightly. Generaly I like those things in any fantasy tale (Longclaw, Narsil, Anduril, Glamdring..), it adds to the immersion, and somehow defines a character. In Witcher games I didn't care about equipment; the only items that had some character were Aerondight (but it looked like any other silver sword), and Ravens armor. This is not in particular related to Skyrim, but in general..

Cant say much... There are some problems with TW2 and some better things. Overall i hope that they will balance the system abit better and if they are going to continue along the "action" style of combat that they look at some other games that have dont it overall better. TW2's combat lack some things to make it a "awesome" action system.


Anyway lets say in the theoretical world that they go out and make a open world game just like skyrim then it wont sell as much as skyrim due to the simple fact that bethesda is a mainstream dev that are very known and big (lets not forget all the advertisment money they throw at stuff...

Just continue to make good games. Dont make another "mainstream game nr 234234244 copy of eachother". Just make *gasp* a good game.

 

[Aaden]

I'll agree with the open world, but only partially. I do not want a single huge world, but I'd like to have bigger areas to explore per chapter. The main world (chapters 1-3, basically) of TW1 is a great example for what a chapter could look like: A small number of settlements plus the surrounding landscape - the fields, forests and what-not. It does not always have to include a major town like Vizima, but might also be a castle and a few villages around or a mansion in an extensive area of dark forest or a mountain pass with a couple of inns and small settlements along the way, etc etc.
In conclusion, I'm against a full-scale open world, but would love to see and explore larger and more open chunks of land.

About the loot. I said this in another thread a couple of days ago: I really miss games that feature a great number of normal gear and only very rare special items. TW1 almost nailed this: You had a lot of regular stuff and only a handful of special, but some of those were REALLY meaningful. Especially Aerondight was, I think, the most cherished item I ever had in any game - it had a rich background story and was a heartfelt treasure to me (I kept it throughout all of TW2 in my initial playthrough because I couldn't bear parting with it!).
So, I don't want to have 28 Epic Swords of Fanciness with awesome 1337-h4xx0r-looks (which often are ridiculous btw) in a game, but every item that stands out from your regular "long sword +1" should have an actual story to it and should be granted to the character in a meaningful way - that's way more important to me than fancy looks. To keep that feeling to it, there can't be more than a handful of items of that kind per game.
But I agree that TW2 kinda failed to do this - there's Vran Armor, but the game doesn't give you enough background on the Vrans and their meaning to actually come to love and cherish it, and other than that? There's many 'epic' swords that don't have any story at all and I solely choose by stats. Sad.

 

[andr01d]

I got Skyrim for Christmas and played it since then. It was my first game from Bethesda, to be sure, but it may very well also be my last.
You say CDP could learn from Bethesda. - Well, apart from marketing I'd say it's just the other way round.

My personal critics on Skyrim:

1. While it may be great to be able to build a fully customized character, it also is a big storytelling flaw for me. - I'd always think of back stories my characters could have. But then in the actual game world none of them will ever be reflected by certain special actions or dialog choices you could have. It just feels like you are nobody and will actually never be a real part of this world. I hate that. (It reminds me too much of my time at school, where I was that nobody that never belonged anywhere.)
2. While it may be nice for some to have the choice to avoid combat, it would have been great to have actual good combat in the game. The combat in Skyrim sucks, big time. On higher difficulties you're just bunnyhopping around running in circles trying to avoid incoming blows. It bullshit to not have the ability to lock onto your target. And because the enemies are also running around like they are on speed (Even in a simple, head-on fistfight, damnit!) it makes it hard to hit anyone or even block correctly. And then you haven't even the choice to block because you are dual wielding. Seriously, wtf?!? - It just feels like having to play Diablo 2 in first person (because in third person view you miss even more often, because you can't see anything).
3. The higher tier armors (especially Deadric) in Skyrim are just overdone (as it seems common in every big contend RPG nowadays). I mean, there's spikes and ridiculous shapes everywhere. And the idea to be able to swim in Dwarven armor is also stupid.
4. While it may be great for the longevity of a game to have mods it's kind of ridiculous how many mods there are for Skyrim that try to turn it either in some flashy JRPG with even more ridiculous outfits and weapons as big as dragons. Or there are mods that are there to turn the game into a virtual masturbation helper. I don't need any of that. - I admit, there are some mods which really help with bugfixing and serious gameplay or UI changes for the better, but those are quite few in number (and still would never be able to make up for the shitty combat and story telling in the first place).
5. While others may find it appealing to be just fooling around doing exactly nothing (regarding finishing the main quest) in a game or letting their time being eaten away by playing things like Sims or Farmville, I am too much of a realist to enjoy such things. I know that in real life I am already fooling around by playing games and not doing something productive or necessary. So I don't need to be doing that in a game, too. - You might say that I could avoid that in Skyrim by sticking to the quests then but then again the game and it's story don't really motivate me to do so. There always are some guys who want you to explore that fancy tomb or go take a look there first or you mysteriously hint that you should or should not go somewhere.
6. I was really annoyed by those people running around in the cities. I mean, there I am, minding my own business or maybe even listening to some random banter on the streets (maybe someone is just hinting something). And I just happen to be in the way of someone else. This person then turns to me, or maybe even shoves me away (during a conversation) circles around me some times and starts to throw his or her single line of dialog at me for seven times in a row thus making it impossible to listen to what I was actually listening to.

But now after thinking about Skyrim there is one thing that comes to my mind, that CDP could really copy from Bethesda (apart from marketing):
It's the idea of stealing and being allowed to take things.
I don't say that Geralt should start becoming a thief but it will feel much better when taking things would initially be forbidden in TW games. And when you helped the guy those things belong to, then you are allowed to take them. This would also make the side quests more rewarding.

 

[Dona.794]

While it may be great for the longevity of a game to have mods it's kind of ridiculous how many mods there are for Skyrim that try to turn it either in some flashy JRPG with even more ridiculous outfits and weapons as big as dragons. Or there are mods that are there to turn the game into a virtual masturbation helper. I don't need any of that. - I admit, there are some mods which really help with bugfixing and serious gameplay or UI changes for the better, but those are quite few in number (and still would never be able to make up for the shitty combat and story telling in the first place).

To be fair, it is community's fault, and Skyrim is hardly the only game that suffers from such mods. Simply, a lot of people like JRPG aesthetic (as much as you and me find it ridiculous) and sex mods will always be the first thing horny teens demand. Just look at Witcher Nexus, there are texture mods that make characters very JRPG-like and there are mods that will strip females of all of their clothes, permanently. That's fan supply and demand for you. I enjoy mods in many games, it's really up to the user what and how they use them.

I agree about stealing/looting! It is so strange when people don't call you out on it in TW. I find it a bit immersion-breaking, even.

 

[andr01d]

To be fair, it is community's fault, and Skyrim is hardly the only game that suffers from such mods. Simply, a lot of people like JRPG aesthetic (as much as you and me find it ridiculous) and sex mods will always be the first thing horny teens demand. Just look at Witcher Nexus, there are texture mods that make characters very JRPG-like and there are mods that will strip females of all of their clothes, permanently. That's fan supply and demand for you. I enjoy mods in many games, it's really up to the user what and how they use them.

Well, I should have elaborated a little more here to get to my point.
I was more comparing it to those fan made quests or even full adventures for TW 1. That's what modding should be about.
But in a game where most people don't seem to be interested in the (main) quests that much it's quite improbable that there will be such mods/fan made adventures.

 

[Eri94_user70]

Skyrim is the bestselling PC title in a long time, having sold multi million copies (Tod Howards words). It broke steam record with around 280000 gamers playing it at the same time, and it has been at the top of the sales chart for a long time now. How did it happen that a multiplatform RPG have sold more copies than a PC exclusive one, which is, in my book, a better game overall? Some may think Beth marketing machinery had something to do with it, but I don't think that was crucial in any way, because there was certainly a lot of hype surrounding The Witcher 2 before it got released. I'm gonna add my two cents:

You can't compare them as equals. The Witcher franchice is still unknown. CD RED have been around from 2007, Bethesda have been around since the late 80s. The Elder scroll series is also extremely old compared to The Witcher and as such it will be more hyped. I still know alot of people that haven't heard about The Witcher. Releasing it on multiple platforms also generate PR to other platforms. Alot of people have multiple platforms and also know people using different platforms than themselves. Of course this generate additional PR.

- Open world games, generally, have a lot more appeal to gamers than the linear ones (especially to PC gamers). You know that there'll be a lot of exploration, that you can immerse yourself in the game world much easily for multiple hours. Now, I'm not saying that Witcher should go full open world, because the story would definitely suffer, and we don't want that, but more like semi open, where you don't have to sacrifice the story, but allow players to explore locations; the first Witcher was very close to being that, while the second is too linear in my book (fantastic game, nonetheless). This structure would also make a lot of sense in the game, and improve Geralts monster slaying/picking herbs side activities, because of a more organic feel of the environment. If the limited resources are a problem, and you have to cut something out, leave some unnecessary dialog with some unimportant side NPCs (there were too much of that in the game IMO). Instead, focus on the important NPCs, and work some more on the believability of the world..

Open worlds doesn't mean jack if you don't have a reason to explore it. What useage is an open world in Oblivion for example when you end up fast travel all the time cause of the enviroment being exactly the same? In fact the open world in Elder scroll games are in that regard weaker on an objective view since it is rarely anything of value to travel around and exploring the world. It's generally just time consuming as there is no real reason to explore the world since there isn't enough quests that actually are worth doing. It's great for a sandbox game but don't tell me that you can provide any objective argument that a large world like Oblivion, Fallout, Skyrim etc provide anything of actual value and depth except for your own personal satisfaction. I'm not saying exploring a huge world in mentioning games are a bad thing but they are however based on personal views and as such I don't see a reason why a game would have to have a larger world to explore if the content in the world doesn't live up to that standard.

- Releasing the modding tools to the public is a fantastic move by Bethesda. It not only creates a strong community, adds to longevity of your product (which is a big selling point), gives ideas to the developer in building their next game (Bethesda implemented a lot of features from Oblivion mods into Skyrim, thus making the game better), but also improve your public image of a caring company in the eyes of the fans..

Bethesda have been sticking with their modding tools since Oblivion (Can't say Morrowind since I haven't played it). That's 2004, being a AAA company releasing games with a large budget on multiple platforms and also using a similar engine throughout the entire time. The Witcher 2 was a entirely new engine, of course they haven't gotten the time so far to release equally good modding tools since they have just made an engine from scratch and also being a small company. Further on there are several interesting mods already released to both Witcher games so I feel that conclusion about CD RED is extremely prematurely judged.

- Make loot/items/customization more meaningful. I used to love in my RPGs (and still do) when I find some epic sword (not like basic longsword +1), or beautiful armor.. all which have some back story, uniqueness, and that made me somehow connected to them (I know it sounds a little stupid), I wanted to use them, and did not part with them lightly. Generaly I like those things in any fantasy tale (Longclaw, Narsil, Anduril, Glamdring..), it adds to the immersion, and somehow defines a character. In Witcher games I didn't care about equipment; the only items that had some character were Aerondight (but it looked like any other silver sword), and Ravens armor. This is not in particular related to Skyrim, but in general..

This one I agree on in some regards. This however is a subjective view and not something you can generalize and say that this is the thing CD RED should do in order to be more popular. In fact I prefer if the customization are still fairly limited as I don't think people playing the Witcher franchise, plays it for the customization but for the story. So I feel in some regards that if people start to spend too much time on item customization they will miss out on the real reason why CD RED was still successful.

 

[not_slimgrin]

I think the crafting system could use a little more balance and I wouldn't mind slightly larger areas with more nooks and crannies to explore. That's about all I'd want TW2 to take from skyrim. As it is, the branching narrative within a linear structure, each chapter a sandbox for you to play in, is exactly as I like The Witcher games.

If you guys recall, the devs claimed each area would be several times larger than those in TW1, which isn't really the case. So I wonder if some areas got cut during production.

 

[Dona.794]

Well, I should have elaborated a little more here to get to my point.
I was more comparing it to those fan made quests or even full adventures for TW 1. That's what modding should be about.
But in a game where most people don't seem to be interested in the (main) quests that much it's quite improbable that there will be such mods/fan made adventures.

Skyrim is your first TES game, correct? Morrowind had heaps of high quality additional, fan-made quests. I'm sure Skyrim will have them too soon. It is just that more people are interested in making ten thousand armour retextures than spending months and months creating a good story-driven adventure. But it will happen. That is where TES games shine, when their sandboxiness is used to its full potential.

(I cannot talk about Oblivion since I haven't played it, but it likely had amazing quests as well.)

@Juuuhan
Toolkit has been available since Morrowind - so, 2002. MW modding community is still one of the strongest videogame modding communities out there.

 

[andr01d]

Skyrim is your first TES game, correct? Morrowind had heaps of high quality additional, fan-made quests. I'm sure Skyrim will have them too soon. It is just that more people are interested in making ten thousand armour retextures than spending months and months creating a good story-driven adventure. But it will happen. That is where TES games shine, when their sandboxiness is used to its full potential.

(I cannot talk about Oblivion since I haven't played it, but it likely had amazing quests as well.)

Oh, ok. Sorry, I take that back, then.
And yes, as I wrote, Skyrim is my first TES game.

 

[dragonbird]

The Witcher 2 was a entirely new engine, of course they haven't gotten the time so far to release equally good modding tools since they have just made an engine from scratch and also being a small company. Further on there are several interesting mods already released to both Witcher games so I feel that conclusion about CD RED is extremely prematurely judged. This one I agree on in some regards. This however is a subjective view and not something you can generalize and say that this is the thing CD RED should do in order to be more popular. In fact I prefer if the customization are still fairly limited as I don't think people playing the Witcher franchise, plays it for the customization but for the story. So I feel in some regards that if people start to spend too much time on item customization they will miss out on the real reason why CD RED was still successful.

Well said.

Regarding armour and weapons, I think that TW1 had too little choice, TW2 probably has too much. How many of us actually use more than a fraction of the ones in TW2, even after multiple playthroughs? You quickly develop a set of favourites from a stats perspective, maybe one per build, and then stick with them. From an aesthetic viewpoint, we all probably have our favourites, and the only reason I started to mod was to match my favourite textures with my favourite stats, and now on every playthrough Geralt looks the same, no matter which armour I actually use.

I also agree with the earlier points about how good it is to have backstories on the weapons/armour, to make them more than just something with a fancy name, (or longsword +1)

I think the crafting system could use a little more balance and I wouldn't mind slightly larger areas with more nooks and crannies to explore. That's about all I'd want TW2 to take from skyrim. As it is, the branching narrative within a linear structure, each chapter a sandbox for you to play in, is exactly as I like The Witcher games.If you guys recall, the devs claimed each area would be several times larger than those in TW1, which isn't really the case. So I wonder if some areas got cut during production.

I didn't see that about TW2, but I'll take your word for it. I deliberately avoided all of the TW2 promo/preview stuff because I didn't want to know too much before playing it (but the hype is needed to bring in new players).

I didn't really think that either the Chapter 1 or Chapter 2 areas were much too small. Loc Muinne was, and I suspect that something was cut from it - maybe we'll find out in April what it was? TW1 was approaching "too big", especially in Chapters 1 and 4, which both had a lot of running from A to B without much happening. Something between the two would be good.

The only thing I'd really like to see More of is Monster types. That was the only place where I think they really cut corners on TW2. (But that's been discussed often enough already, and I hope that the devs have already got the message).

 

[n4meless1]

Hmm, some of you are arguing about the things I've never said. I'm not for full open world like Skyrim, and I've said that in the first post, but for a semi open one just like Aeden explained below. I want Witcher to be storytelling game first and foremost, but a game CAN achieve a perfect balance between story and gameplay/exploration, and thus became much more enjoyable, than when it shoves some unnecessary, forgettable dialog on every step, with every character no matter how insignificant that character is to the story (which adds to the *boring* factor), or when, on the other hand, allow you to free roam aimlessly (like TES). Deus Ex games (especially the first one, and without the IW abomination), Bloodlines, and even the first Witcher (almost) achieved that, and because of it they were so memorable..

I'll agree with the open world, but only partially. I do not want a single huge world, but I'd like to have bigger areas to explore per chapter. The main world (chapters 1-3, basically) of TW1 is a great example for what a chapter could look like: A small number of settlements plus the surrounding landscape - the fields, forests and what-not. It does not always have to include a major town like Vizima, but might also be a castle and a few villages around or a mansion in an extensive area of dark forest or a mountain pass with a couple of inns and small settlements along the way, etc etc.
In conclusion, I'm against a full-scale open world, but would love to see and explore larger and more open chunks of land.

I was more comparing it to those fan made quests or even full adventures for TW 1. That's what modding should be about.
But in a game where most people don't seem to be interested in the (main) quests that much it's quite improbable that there will be such mods/fan made adventures.

This is simply incorrect! There are plenty of fan made adventures in Morrowind, Oblivion.. that are extremely well done. And that's not all: texture/graphic mods that make the game more beautiful (modded Morrowind is looking better than most games nowdays), more items (look for the LOTR weapons mod for Skyrim; it added all the famous swords in the game, and they are perfectly modeled), more creatures, more EVERYTHING. Imagine how many things from Witcher books could be added in the game by the modders/fans?

Second, I'm not a Beth fan, and I wasn't implying that CDP is worse than Bethesda, with this topic. I just wanted to point out some of the things that Beth did right (modding tools), and some of the preferences of gamers that I've noticed on various forums (more openworldness > linearity), and express how could that be implemented in The Witcher, thus making it a better, and more appealing game..

 

[Randomdrowner2015]

- Witcher's storytelling, writing & narrative are the key features that differentiate this series from Bethesda's games. I don't think CDPR should EVER change that and go for open-world, because story & writing are their key strengths, while open world is Bethesda's thing. I also enjoy story driven games more, I'm more about sinking 40 hours in a game with substance, than 200 hours in a game without it.

- Toolkit was discussed already many times, CDPR will probably release it but not too soon. RED Engine is still new, development tools still need tweaking and adapting for "casual" users. Bethesda's engine has been pretty much the same for years, so releasing the toolkit is easy. Plus - what Dona pointed out - the toolkit for Bethesda's games is actually a must for the community. Witcher has way more replayability and I think we can live without the tools for some time.

- I agree that more items with backstory would be nice, but also not too many, so rare items remain rare.

- I agree that CDPR should really step up with their PR/hype efforts, especially when entering the new, console market.

+1 and Amen to that.

Now that Bioware is in a decaying orbit around the dark planet EA, I hope CDproject takes note and continues to walk among the stars.

 

[Dona.794]

Second, I'm not a Beth fan, and I wasn't implying that CDP is worse than Bethesda, with this topic. I just wanted to point out some of the things that Beth did right (modding tools), and some of the preferences of gamers that I've noticed on various forums (more openworldness > linearity), and express how could that be implemented in The Witcher, thus making it a better, and more appealing game..

Don't worry, your intentions came across well, it didn't sound like you were saying CDPR was 'worse' than Beth, just that they can take some things from them. The important thing here is, they are two very different games, the only similar thing is attachment to RPG genre. Modding tools are a necessity for Beth because their games aren't worth it without them, while unmodded Witcher remains a highly replayable, interesting game. Linearity can be a good thing, it really depends on the game and its purpose. Freeroaming could kill the Witcher because you'd stray away from the story; at the same time, linearity could kill Skyrim because you'd never get to explore the world under the pressure of the story. Understanding what your game is all about and putting its strength forward is the most important thing to do.

All in all, good thread, I agree with a lot of things said here. There's always room for improvement

 

[andr01d]

Regarding armour and weapons, I think that TW1 had too little choice, TW2 probably has too much. How many of us actually use more than a fraction of the ones in TW2, even after multiple playthroughs? You quickly develop a set of favourites from a stats perspective, maybe one per build, and then stick with them. From an aesthetic viewpoint, we all probably have our favourites, and the only reason I started to mod was to match my favourite textures with my favourite stats, and now on every playthrough Geralt looks the same, no matter which armour I actually use.

I also agree with the earlier points about how good it is to have backstories on the weapons/armour, to make them more than just something with a fancy name, (or longsword +1)

But isn't being able to use the armor you fancied most (by visual appeal) one of the best things to have in an RPG. I mean in most games that overdo the looks on all of their high end armor and weapons I find myself using weaker, maybe even low level or starting gear because it simply looks better to me. So now in TW 2 everyone can pick their favorite look and stick with it, gaining almost the same bonus from that gear as everyone else would with other gear.

The only thing I'd really like to see More of is Monster types. That was the only place where I think they really cut corners on TW2. (But that's been discussed often enough already, and I hope that the devs have already got the message).

I second that.

This is simply incorrect! There are plenty of fan made adventures in Morrowind, Oblivion.. that are extremely well done. And that's not all: texture/graphic mods that make the game more beautiful (modded Morrowind is looking better than most games nowdays), more items (look for the LOTR weapons mod for Skyrim; it added all the famous swords in the game, and they are perfectly modeled), more creatures, more EVERYTHING. Imagine how many things from Witcher books could be added in the game by the modders/fans?

Sorry. I already said I take that back.

But then again you come with the example of LOTR weapons for Skyrim.
Seriously? Why the fuck would I want those to be in a TES game?! - TES has a different lore. Tamriel is not Middle Earth. Why in Tolkien's name would I want such bullshit?
It's the same with all those TW lookalike mods for Skyrim. - I seriously love TW but it kind of makes me wanna puke to see it modded into Skyrim.
I mean a total conversion mod would be ok. But this "adds XYZ to the game" bullshit is just like taking two of my favorite dishes--steak and lemon ice cream--and mixing them together for the best taste experience. Thanks, but no thanks.