What creative solutions to game difficulty could be added other than the archaic HP/DMG modifiers?

[Harthwain]

I'll agree, but at the same time it doesn't change that they decided to have FPS-style combat. That means that, unless they intentionally make aiming as unrealistic as humanly possible, skills to govern aptitude are going to be at-best a secondary influence on the combat.

"As unrealistic as humanly possible"? Being able to hold your gun as steadily as possible is the most important (and realistic) skill when it comes to shooting. Next to knowing if the safety is on or off. Otherwise you could be firing a flintlock and get the same results. This means the gun-related skill(s) should matter more than being "at-best a secondary influence on the combat."

Unless, of course, CDPR wants to pander the average gamer's fantasy of shooting, instead of keeping the spirit of the original mechanic or the reality that inspired said mechanics in CP.

 

[BaalNergal]

"As unrealistic as humanly possible"? Being able to hold your gun as steadily as possible is the most important (and realistic) skill when it comes to shooting. Next to knowing if the safety is on or off. Otherwise you could be firing a flintlock and get the same results. This means the gun-related skill(s) should matter more than being "at-best a secondary influence on the combat."

Unless, of course, CDPR wants to pander the average gamer's fantasy of shooting, instead of keeping the spirit of the original mechanic or the reality that inspired said mechanics in CP.

Having used a sniper rifle in many FPS games, I can tell you that "steady" is not of that much importance for video game sharpshooting. It's just pressing the button to shoot as soon as the crosshairs wander over the right area, rather than investing the time and effort necessary to get some skill up to where they remain steady.

I mean, you can waste your time pressing the "hold breath" button or building up your shooting skills, or you can learn how to quickly tap the fire button once the crosshairs line up. The last, inevitably, is the more useful.

So, basically, as far as pulling off skills mattering: You would have to miss at ranges where it would be nearly impossible to not hit even with a flintlock. You would have to miss while pressing your gun against the other guy's head with neither him nor your gun moving away from it. Otherwise, those of us who are FPS veterans are going to find ways to shoot accurately with it independent of the skill system.

The point where a miss defies the laws of physics is what I meant by "as unrealistic as humanly possible." Because I can tell you that anything less and skills become, as I said, at-best a secondary influence just due to the amount of experience a number of FPS players will bring to the game in dealing with shooting accurately without their characters having accuracy training.

 

[Harthwain]

Having used a sniper rifle in many FPS games, I can tell you that "steady" is not of that much importance for video game sharpshooting.

What FPS games?

Because most of them fail at making a half-decent representation of sharpshooting when it comes to either the mechanics or the distances involved. In real life it's much harder to be a good shot (nevermind a sharpshooter), even when your target is relatively close and stationary, and doesn't threaten to fire or fire back.

So, basically, as far as pulling off skills mattering: You would have to miss at ranges where it would be nearly impossible to not hit even with a flintlock.

You cast a pretty wide net - going from a sharpshooter to someone who can't anything.

Thing is, guns are a projectile weapons. This means that your aim is crucial, because even a very slight deviation can send your bullet off-target. And this gets worse the further away you are from the said target. There is a reason why the advice is to aim at "center of mass" - legs, arms and heads are harder targets [to hit].

You would have to miss while pressing your gun against the other guy's head with neither him nor your gun moving away from it. Otherwise, those of us who are FPS veterans are going to find ways to shoot accurately with it independent of the skill system.

You underestimate how a good shooting system can balance the character's inherent [in]ability to wield a weapon correctly with the player's control over where to aim and when to fire.

 

[BaalNergal]

What FPS games?

Because most of them fail at making a half-decent representation of sharpshooting when it comes to either the mechanics or the distances involved. In real life it's much harder to be a good shot (nevermind a sharpshooter), even when your target is relatively close and stationary, and doesn't threaten to fire or fire back.

Most of them, pretty much. Most of the ones that try to introduce any idea of unsteady aim just have the camera sway. It... doesn't work as well as they'd like to think.

You cast a pretty wide net - going from a sharpshooter to someone who can't anything.

Thing is, guns are a projectile weapons. This means that your aim is crucial, because even a very slight deviation can send your bullet off-target. And this gets worse the further away you are from the said target. There is a reason why the advice is to aim at "center of mass" - legs, arms and heads are harder targets [to hit].

Which runs up against a problem: It's incredibly difficult for most video game developers to properly represent that or realistic tactics.

I'm not talking about how things work in the real world; I'm talking about how they work in most FPS games. This game is going to rely on FPS mechanics, after all.

You underestimate how a good shooting system can balance the character's inherent [in]ability to wield a weapon correctly with the player's control over where to aim and when to fire.

No, I don't. Because I haven't met one yet in a video game that actually does it well enough. There might be a couple of fringe shooters I haven't played that do it, but most of the ones I have? They don't even get close. They try to use camera sway, random misses, etc. to make it seem like they are introducing difficulty, but all of that is easily compensated for by experience.

And, unfortunately, we have that sea of "not doing it right" as the primary example of what CDPR has to draw upon. And they've made it clear the shooting will be FPS mechanics, which tend to do realistic rather poorly and have limits either easily gamed or easily bypassed.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

And this is the "problem" with FPS with mechanics in games are suppose to be RPGs.

It is a problem with a capital P. Either do the RPG right, or don't and make the FPS right. Going halfsies is alwasy problematic on both sides.

Anyways... I don't have much arguments left over this. I don't believe a handful of loud oldschool traditionalists is going to mean much when there's a ripe cheering crowd of gamer cattle to be picked up in Reddit, Youtube and other forums.

 

[helios969]

It is a problem with a capital P. Either do the RPG right, or don't and make the FPS right. Going halfsies is alwasy problematic on both sides.

I don't think it has to be an either or proposition. The real question is whether CDPR has the experience and resources to do both right.

My ideal is a combat system deep enough that I am not artificially restricted by level and stats...I want my skills as a gamer to overcome such....of course to a much more challenging degree. In addition, aside from traditional difficulty settings I'd like more on/off options in tailoring gameplay challenge...i.e. having breathing after sprinting affect my ability to aim as an example.

 

[Suhiira]

So, basically, as far as pulling off skills mattering: You would have to miss at ranges where it would be nearly impossible to not hit even with a flintlock. You would have to miss while pressing your gun against the other guy's head with neither him nor your gun moving away from it. Otherwise, those of us who are FPS veterans are going to find ways to shoot accurately with it independent of the skill system.

There are PnP RPGs out there that use a "point blank shot" system.

Basically if you're within about 1m of your target you automatically hit. At any greater distance you're at the mercy of the dice. But I've yet to hear of a video game incorporating such mechanics.

 

[BaalNergal]

There are PnP RPGs out there that use a "point blank shot" system.

Basically if you're within about 1m of your target you automatically hit. At any greater distance you're at the mercy of the dice. But I've yet to hear of a video game incorporating such mechanics.

Pathfinder: Kingmaker does. They even have a feat for it characters can take for archery and spellcasting.

However, that's a cRPG. It doesn't come remotely close to FPS shooting.

 

[Harthwain]

No, I don't. Because I haven't met one yet in a video game that actually does it well enough. There might be a couple of fringe shooters I haven't played that do it, but most of the ones I have? They don't even get close. They try to use camera sway, random misses, etc. to make it seem like they are introducing difficulty, but all of that is easily compensated for by experience.

Sway should be strong enough to not be easily compensated for by experience. And it shouldn't be just the camera sway, but the actual gun sway. This would mean the barrel of the gun could move, instead of staying aligned perfectly with your iron sights the entire time, like in most games. With gun sway moving and shooting is even harder, especially if you're winded. Throw in weapon recoil too and you should have a solid base for the good shooting mechanic.

And, unfortunately, we have that sea of "not doing it right" as the primary example of what CDPR has to draw upon. And they've made it clear the shooting will be FPS mechanics, which tend to do realistic rather poorly and have limits either easily gamed or easily bypassed.

I am not optimistic with CDPR being able to pull out a great shooting mechanic either, given their track record with combat gameplay in TW series.

Basically if you're within about 1m of your target you automatically hit. At any greater distance you're at the mercy of the dice. But I've yet to hear of a video game incorporating such mechanics.

Phantom Doctrine. At point blank you deal maximum possible damage, regardless if the target has any Awareness left to Dodge successfully. Otherwise it's possible for the target to take minimal damage instead, which depends on weapon, armor and range.

 

[BaalNergal]

Sway should be strong enough to not be easily compensated for by experience. And it shouldn't be just the camera sway, but the actual gun sway. This would mean the barrel of the gun could move, instead of staying aligned perfectly with your iron sights the entire time, like in most games. With gun sway moving and shooting is even harder, especially if you're winded. Throw in weapon recoil too and you should have a solid base for the good shooting mechanic.

IIRC, VtM Bloodlines had that. It didn't stop me from sharpshooting at all. It just required a bit of adjustment. Also, shooting and moving made you massively inaccurate, which I loved.

The problem is that the sway wasn't enough. As long as I paid enough attention to the crosshairs and mentally adjusted, I could pull off a shot at a pretty good range. I couldn't snipe with a pistol without investment in the gun skill, but I never missed with a rifle once I got one.

I am not optimistic with CDPR being able to pull out a great shooting mechanic either, given their track record with combat gameplay in TW series.

Agreed. But, that's not why I'm buying the game

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I don't think it has to be an either or proposition. The real question is whether CDPR has the experience and resources to do both right.

You can not do "both right" because they strive towards completely opposite and contradicting experiences.

There are ways to try an mix "action" with "character driven" results, but it requires some heavy compromises from the action/FPS players, which I'd presume is a big no-no in the industry today. And the end results of which aren't guaranteed in practice since nobody's really tried it (every studio has just actionified the combat mechanics towards the common FPS standards and kept stripping the RPG mechanics away).

I've said it before, but I do sincerely believe that people don't really like RPG's -- or, at least, devenlopement studios think they don't, so they strive away from the related systems and mechanics. They just want token progression systems that are so lightweight that they won't interfere with the slick gameplay flow to occasionally pat them in the back for "job well done here's a reward point to put in a meaningless stat/perk so you can craft a new pouch", and seemingly branching storytelling.

RPG's by their nature are more abstract in their depiction of the action than action games, and that is the main reason there is such a big contradiction between RPG and FPS, and why the halfsies approach really only shoots both sides to the foot (clumsy FPS gameplay <-> ineffective RPG systems).

 

[SigilFey]

I would like to see a mechanic like weapon affinity. Meaning: the more I use a particular weapon, armor, or tool, the more I gain bonuses to to various stats while using it. Not so much that I get better with, say, "rifles" (that could be a general skill), but while I'm using my, unique rifle ("...this is my rifle -- there are many like it, but this one is mine...") I get a bunch of positives over time.

I love systems like this, because it makes it deciding how to move forward very difficult. Do I take that fancy, new weapon I just found? Is the extra damage worth losing all of my affinity bonuses? Is it better to start getting to know the new weapon and winding up significantly more powerful later on? Or should I hold on to my trusty rifle and keep accruing affinity until I find something much better?

Plus, if weapons can be lost or destroyed -- --

 

[Suhiira]

I've said it before, but I do sincerely believe that people don't really like RPG's -- or, at least, devenlopement studios think they don't, so they strive away from the related systems and mechanics. They just want token progression systems that are so lightweight that they won't interfere with the slick gameplay flow <clip>

This certainly seems to be the case.
I think it has a lot to do with how vocal some of members of the FPS community are. So the feedback is mostly very one-sided.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I think it has a lot to do with how vocal some of members of the FPS community are. So the feedback is mostly very one-sided.

True.

I've also noticed that there are generally a lot of people to whom it's a matter of *I'd like it, but it's not gonna happen anyway so I won't support or ask for it". Kinda like supply dictating the demand. Go figure.

 

[helios969]

You can not do "both right" because they strive towards completely opposite and contradicting experiences.

There are ways to try an mix "action" with "character driven" results, but it requires some heavy compromises from the action/FPS players, which I'd presume is a big no-no in the industry today. And the end results of which aren't guaranteed in practice since nobody's really tried it (every studio has just actionified the combat mechanics towards the common FPS standards and kept stripping the RPG mechanics away).

I've said it before, but I do sincerely believe that people don't really like RPG's -- or, at least, devenlopement studios think they don't, so they strive away from the related systems and mechanics. They just want token progression systems that are so lightweight that they won't interfere with the slick gameplay flow to occasionally pat them in the back for "job well done here's a reward point to put in a meaningless stat/perk so you can craft a new pouch", and seemingly branching storytelling.

RPG's by their nature are more abstract in their depiction of the action than action games, and that is the main reason there is such a big contradiction between RPG and FPS, and why the halfsies approach really only shoots both sides to the foot (clumsy FPS gameplay <-> ineffective RPG systems).

I guess maybe I don't understand how you define roleplaying...to me good RPing is about immersion and consistency of voice in which to craft my character. And I see no reason you cannot have great FPS mechanics and still accomplish that. Now if you define a great RPing experience being about stats and builds and crafting and character customization and inventory management and oodles of dialogue options (which you're not going to get with modern voiced AAA RPGs)...then yes, it's probably a tall order to have deep shooter mechanics. But how much of this is incorporated...and done well comes down to the amount of resources they're willing to expend...and how well those resources are managed.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

A C2020 health for me and enemies is good for me.

I already play Fallout 4 with a "no health per level" mod, and even my maxed character with the best power armor isn't immortal anymore and can fall under the number.

 

[BaalNergal]

I guess maybe I don't understand how you define roleplaying...to me good RPing is about immersion and consistency of voice in which to craft my character. And I see no reason you cannot have great FPS mechanics and still accomplish that. Now if you define a great RPing experience being about stats and builds and crafting and character customization and inventory management and oodles of dialogue options (which you're not going to get with modern voiced AAA RPGs)...then yes, it's probably a tall order to have deep shooter mechanics. But how much of this is incorporated...and done well comes down to the amount of resources they're willing to expend...and how well those resources are managed.

I think he's talking about RPGs and their requirements, not roleplaying. There is a big difference between the two.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

I guess maybe I don't understand how you define roleplaying...to me good RPing is about immersion and consistency of voice in which to craft my character. And I see no reason you cannot have great FPS mechanics and still accomplish that.

Because for most people "have great FPS mechanics" doesn't mix well with character immersion when said character doesn't know how to hold a gun (or the opposite: it doesn't mix well with character immersion when said character never miss a shot).

For example see some of the outcry of FPS players about Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas.

 

[Dreadpoet]

Just because one plays FPS at a high level does not mean that V has the same high level of skill at the beginning of the game—just as me being solid at the gun range has little to do with how I will do in FPS titles. The beauty of RPGs is in allowing the characters strengths and weaknesses to shine through. I will often offer up self-imposed faults to make the game more interesting. That said, in a FPS/RPG we cannot simply aim the gun in the enemies’ general direction, squeeze the trigger, and let the dice determine the outcome--as we would a JRPG. We still do want the FPS experience. We want our own adeptness to show through alongside V’s. This is a difficult paradigm.

In adding difficulty to RPG while retaining FPS, I definitely think you should never increase/decrease the to hit % from player or A.I. That is like breaking your own game in preference of a more difficult experience.

I do not see fault in aiming at a guy’s head, pulling the trigger with the reticle on his head, and still missing…within reason. However, that should not be the norm—especially the more skilled V becomes. There are so many real life reasons that could account for missing that shot. I breathed at the wrong moment, my trigger pull is not as solid as it could be, I tightened right before I shot, the target moved a centimeter to right, the gun may not be shooting as tight a pattern as I thought, etc.

 

[Poison19]

Call me when we get to the "I have an idea" part of the discussion. I will come with my "steady aim time system" again