Tantrum aside, which was as much of an over reaction as my poorly worded calling you out for all the star wars threadcrapping in the other thread, as contrary to your outburst, I didn't shoot down your idea here, I asked you to explain how it works.
I examine everything, even whats presented in the books, and while there are things I do not allow in My game, they are few and far between, because the game designers give the same amount of thought, research, and examination that I do. And for the wonkier stuff, they tend to give pretty damn good layman explanations on exactly how something works. I do not need real world examples, I need something that fits within the logical tech limits of the game.
The problem is, Neither Braindance nor Soukiller Mind Transference, work like your idea suggests.
Braindance records experience, it does not extract memories, it records them as they are happening. And doing so requires a neural recording rig that jacks into a special plug on your spine. A plug that the book detailing Braindance (Rockerboy) states specifically cannot be used for anything else. Yes, the point of Braindance is that with the proper equipment, a person can play back those memories, or play back completely manufactured ones, and experience them for themselves. Braindance does not erase memories, it doesn't over ride them. It doesn't effect the previous memories of the user at all.
The Soulkiller virus, that transfers a persons consciousness into a digital network, requires massive amounts of storage space to run, and even more massive amounts of to store the personality. Hell, the only place in the books it could even exist was on massive mainframe in the Arasaka facility.
So far the only thing you have is that the user gets an implant... I asked you specifically how it effects the target, and you completely glossed over that. I don't know if its because you are being obtuse, or because you haven't actually given it any more thought than "this would be neat!". So again I ask you, because I am NOT just shooting down your idea. How does your implant effect the target? By what means does your implant interface with the target to erase memory.?
Upon reflection, Soulkiller could manage to work in a way as to just erase memory... as it kid of already does so... destroying the memories of the target as it copies them into the mainframe. However the memories lost are not specific, in fact they are random. True, you could have it work begining with short term, and moving from there into long term. However, thats still the program... which was never my issue at all.
My issue is still how your implant works against the target? How it accesses their memories in the first place?
My issue is still how your implant works against the target? How it accesses their memories in the first place?
It could be cool. I'd say I wouldn't mind seeing it in game. Doubt we would - too many complexities - but it's no more far fetched than Bod Pods or true AI.
Hell, as someone who has gone under knife and lasers in the last years, the whole commonality of reliable serious surgical options seems less believeable to me than smart guns. So many complications, healing time, individual twists on each surgery...the human body is crazy complex.
That said, some of the things in the Real Life tech thread also make me blink. Not that they are in general production either, but even the prototypes..
Hell, as someone who has gone under knife and lasers in the last years, the whole commonality of reliable serious surgical options seems less believeable to me than smart guns. So many complications, healing time, individual twists on each surgery...the human body is crazy complex.
That said, some of the things in the Real Life tech thread also make me blink. Not that they are in general production either, but even the prototypes..
Like I said, I am not shooting down his idea, I just want to know how he sees it working.
OK, sorry for overreacting.. But you shooting down my idea with "derp bullets" hardly sound like me making a big deal over it. It is not me being "obtuse" or thinking my idea was "neat". (Every time you say that as if it is a bad thing.) Can you even explain how the soulkiller virus works? Does it suck subjects brain away? It somehow rips away the mind of the subject right? But how does it do that? Does it copy the memories and override the brain with useless memories? Or does it overload and fry the brain of the subject one the upload is complete? Did these netrunner equipments designed to override data on someones brain? If so how retarded are they to use such unreliable technology? You don't seem to question any of that but i have to give great detail for my idea to be feasible... Anyway..
To answer you question, which is a stupid question as i answered it before, it works in a similar way braindance or soulkiller does. You would have to touch the subjects head of something. (However a portable braindance device connects to your brain, a similar principle applies.) Those connection points that the braindance devices have (assuming it has connection ports that has to connect with your your head and it does not work wirelessly) would be in one of your hands.
You wouldn't even have to extract the memories from the subjects mind, human mind can only hold so much memory. Override a useless memory over and over again and the subjects brain will be like a 5 year olds mind in no time. Then you can give them the memories of a loyal servant that were prepared beforehand. As it was said, users of braindance not only see the memory, they live the memory. Complete with feelings and emotions. If you gave those memories to someone with no identity, they would assume the only identity they have, the one you gave them.
If the only thing you have is an idea you think is neat, with no more thought than that to back it up then yeah, it's not that great. For your idea to be taken seriously as a game mechanic, you have to give thought beyiond just "i think this is neat" to make it viable. And you have to be willing to listen to criticism.
Even with the "derp bullets" thing, I said Instead of shooting your idea down, I was going to let you explain how it worked. It seemed wonky to me, but I am totally willing to hear you out.
It forces a direct download of the consciousness. For some reason instead of copying the consciousness, it's a transference, a one way trip. Not sure why. In game terms it was most likely meant as a blancing issue, so people don't have multiple copies of themselves running all over the place. Also, becuase it was originally intended as just a bit of fiction in the core book, and the program wasn't given stats until Rache Bartmoss's Brainware Blowout which came out 6 years later. It works through the same interface that allows you to project your consciousness into the net via a netrunners neural jack, trapping that consciousness and storing it. A computer with an intelligence of 9 and processor speed of 16, with 45 MU devoted just to run the program. It also needs a minimum 4000 MU memory mainframe to store the downloaded personality.
I question all of that. You keep saying I don't question the stuff that appears in the books, that I blindly accept it. I don't know where you get this idea. You make a lot of very strange assumptions about me, I don't know whether to be amused or insulted by this. There are some things I allow a bit of handwavium for, that I don't get too hung up on, things like how cyber and power armor are actually powered, because with any game you have to have some suspension of disbelief. But they make sense within the context of the game, within the level of tech that is represented. If the entire premise of the game revolves around the ability to receive cybernetic prosthesis, then to play the game you have to allow for it being powered somehow. However, within that context, most everything else makes sense, and in the description of any given device is how it works, or at least enough similar tech to you can figure it out.
Except you totally did not.
That bolded part there, thats the first time you have actually said how it works. In previous posts nothing you said came even close to describing that. Which was all I was trying to get at. And yes, braindance definitely requires a direct interface. As does netrunning. While a cyberdeck itself may have a wireless connection to the net, you have to plug in via cable and interface jack to use it... I suppose you could, if you were extremely foolhardy, create a wireless jack for your cyberdeck, but that would leave you open and unprotected pretty much completely. It would be akin to walking across the highway blindfolded.
However, a physical direct connection to the target... that's great, we can work with that.
Ok.... and how long would you see something like this taking? I am not being snarky... these are the details that are important when creating a new bit of tech for the game. I mean the amount of information the human brain can store is immense... for the Emergency Self Construct program (described as the poor mans Soulkiller) in Rache Bartmos's Brainware Blowout, each skill point requires 50 MU of space.
And as I said, you can't target specific memories to erase/copy.... that's not how either braindance or Soulkiller work. So you are pretty much turning them into a vegetable, with only autonomic brain function, or you are randomly erasing memories. To actually map the memories in a subject I think would probably require somehting much more complex and space consuming than you could fit in an implant. Not saying it can't be done, but given the tech level of cyberpunk 2020, or even 2077, I would imagine such a device to be quite large, like an MRI machine. It would also likely be very time consuming, but that's just my opinion.
Ok, so how do you store the "personality" you wish to implant in the subject? Perhaps a separate device, ala a braindance player type device?
Presumably this would take up a considerable amount of space, even if the memories are fake. A standard Braindance lasts between 20 minutes and an hour. so it would likely have to take up far more space than a simple braindance chip.
The point I have been trying to make this whole time is this. When you suggest something, give some thought to how it would work before you throw it out there. Give it a plausible description, and a reason to exist beyond just the effect you want it to have.
And this is a forum. The whole point of bringing up something here is to discuss it. If someone throws out an idea that I don't think works with the setting, it's kind of the point of a forum for me to question it, to enter a discussion about it. To explain why I think it is or is not a good idea. Not just to blindly agree with whatever gets posted.
Thats where you don't get.. I don't have to prove my point to you.. You always talk as if everything has to get "Wisdoms seal of approval" or they are retarded. You are just saying "Those imaginary technologies exist, but this imaginary technology is impossible." Your obsession is so weird it should be called a fetish...
And to answer all of your other questions, this is a new experimental technology that was being developed by the military.. While it can resemble other technologies like braindance and soulkiller, it doesn't have to be same with them. So, you can use them as an example but you can't take them as a base. You can't take CP2020 as base either, because from 2020 to 2077 even if the technology progressed bare minimum (progress of technology cannot be stopped completely and 57 years is NOT a short time period.) It would still be different than CP2020. So almost everything you say about how technology is in the CP77 is whole a lot of assumptions.
For fucks sake Wisdom, really, are you fucking high? Who the hell do you remember in this forum that explained their idea as much as i did?! And you are under the illusion that i thought my idea was "neat" and that i post it without giving it a serious thought, where you are getting that idea is beyond me...
This conversation is over.
You posted your idea on a public forum. Your idea was questioned and discussed. You throw a temper tantrum about it. That's a nice trend you have going there.
It wasn't my idea thats been being discussed. It was the details. And the reason i got pissed about it wasn't because it was being discussed, it is because you can't discuss anything without being a dick. If this happened only once or twice, i could've let it go, but this is something you always do. If you don't like something, if something doesn't fit the way you imagine Cyberpunk, you go and start insulting people and their ideas. "Derp bullets" is just your newest case of childish wordplay. And not to mention the StarWars case..
You treat any criticism as a personal attack, and then throw a bloody conniption about it. You had a conniption when you were told, and not just by me, that remotely hacking the sensory input of people was not something that would really work the way you wanted it to. You went absolutely spastic when the whole bloody forum told you your idea about remotely hacking guns to make them explode in their owners hands wouldn't work at all. And here you are throwing a fit again because I asked you to clarify and give details to your idea, which I actually thought could be workable, which is why I wanted to know more. Instead you choose to keep stomping your feet and focusing on an offhand comment about derp bullets, when every reply to you since has contained nothing of it's kind.
And every single time you are told why an idea might not work the way you want it to, you fall back on "but its not 2020, it's 2077, you don't know anything," Which is about as bullshit an argument as you can make, since the developers have stated since the beginning that the game is going to be based off of Cyberpunk 2020. The developers and Mike Pondsmith both have stated the critical nature of the tech level being close to Cyberpunk 2020 is crucial to the feel of the 2077 setting.
Oh, heres one last little secret. If you post an idea, then its the details of that idea that people are going to discuss. If you say "I want something that has this effect!". people are naturally going to ask "well how does it work?" Details are what we discuss here, every poster, in every thread, about every idea.
As for the star wars bullshit, I called you out on spamming the thread and crapping all over it. I was harsh in my wording, and I apologized for it. But yeah, you go ahead and keep whining about it, it helps your case so much.
What a lovely subject for personal messages! Not that I don't enjoy the walls of text, but really, more humour is needed to press my happy buttons.
And as we all know, if I'm not enjoying it, it is in no way relevant.
Now, here's a thought:
If you had to pick, and I'm sure the CDPR guys do, how would you fall on the question of MORE detailed cyberware in terms of effects, looks and options, ( like four different kinds of skinweave, or base/Sov/Orbital Crystal, etc),
or
LESS detailed cyberware in terms of how it looks and sub-options, but many more of the cyber from the books. Do you want a cyberleg Wet Bar or the many, many cyber options available to netrunners, or would you rather give up on perhaps the total variety of cyber in favour of some highly detailed but smaller in selection cyber?
What would you see that as? 30 highly detailed pieces vs 200 less-detailed/optioned augments? Some compromise between the two?
Or hold out for every piece of cyber in the books?
And as we all know, if I'm not enjoying it, it is in no way relevant.
Now, here's a thought:
If you had to pick, and I'm sure the CDPR guys do, how would you fall on the question of MORE detailed cyberware in terms of effects, looks and options, ( like four different kinds of skinweave, or base/Sov/Orbital Crystal, etc),
or
LESS detailed cyberware in terms of how it looks and sub-options, but many more of the cyber from the books. Do you want a cyberleg Wet Bar or the many, many cyber options available to netrunners, or would you rather give up on perhaps the total variety of cyber in favour of some highly detailed but smaller in selection cyber?
What would you see that as? 30 highly detailed pieces vs 200 less-detailed/optioned augments? Some compromise between the two?
Or hold out for every piece of cyber in the books?
Holding out for every piece of cyber is probably a fools errand.
The wet bar cyberleg for instance... is fucking awesome... but would serve little purpose in the game, and takes up so many spaces that it's inclusion would really be little more than a joke... not to mention, to use it properly you have to run around in short shorts at the most...
Other things would reuire entirely seperate game mechanics to implement properly, such as the grapplefist. While I love the grapplefist, and my favorite character has one. I won't be surprised if it doesn't make it in the game.
Options that merely provide bonuses... yeah I see them pretty much all being included. Though I think their effects should be represented in detail, perhaps olfactory boosts show you sniffing shit, or tactile boosts show you running your figners across stuff. However doing so may be asking a bit much..
I have already stated that I would prefer that the look of cyberlimbs, the aesthetic of them, be a seperate thing from any bonuses they give or functions they perform. it really sucks that to get the functions I want in some games, I end up looking all derpy. Sleeping dogs was horrible about this.
Hey I want em too, ridiculously bad... and I hope they are int he game... but as I said, they would require a completely seperate mechanic.
I mean whats not to love, not only can you use it to spiderman swing, and Scorpion "get over here", but you can also it use to punch people at the other end of the bar, or grab a beer off the counter from the other side of the room.
Actively disarm weeflerunners as they pull their piece. Smack the huge guy sitting next to the corp while you're thirty feet away. Play havoc with metal detectors and MFD screens before you get close...clothesline fools who think they can chase you down alleyways on bikes...
So damn many things.
So damn many things.
There were only four people on that argument. You, me, ChrisWebb and braindancer12 (Who didn't really argue but kept telling me to chill) And you imagine the whole forum being there? How sad.. And that post wasn't even about me wanting to hack peoples guns, i made a joke about Sard's post, where he commented your post that he would hack the gun to make it fire. (Go ahead, find it, it was a good joke) All i said was i would make the gun explode if i could. It wasn't a fucking suggestion. I never said i wanted exploding guns or some crazy shit. But then ChrisWebb said my idea was retarded. (He actually used the word retarded.) You again asked how would it cause to explode. Me being a good support, tried to come up with something. Argument got heated from there. Rest, you are imagining things..
Your narrow point of view may not be able to comprehend the difference between "being close" and "being the same"... But thats OK..
Nobody but you does that..
I was talking about your behavior.. Your "i'm master of cyberpunk, everybody else's opinion is retarded" attitude. When it comes to cyberpunk you are "harsh" very often. People started to joke about "Wisdom's wrath" which is not a compliment.
Only you would search for sense and explanation where there isn't any. Go ask Mike how the energy weapons and the cyber brains work, ask him to give you details. Then we will talk.
If anyone feels the need to have another "last word" on the topic, don't. I'm having it.
Suggestions made may (or may not) trigger off ideas within CDPR, so they DON'T necessarily need to be perfectly thought through in the forums, that would be CDPR's job. And it's a forum, so suggestions WILL get shot down if others don't like them. So both of you please chill out.
Suggestions made may (or may not) trigger off ideas within CDPR, so they DON'T necessarily need to be perfectly thought through in the forums, that would be CDPR's job. And it's a forum, so suggestions WILL get shot down if others don't like them. So both of you please chill out.
You can't tell me what to do.. If i wanted to chill i would.. And i want to... It has nothing to do with you being a fire breathing dragon and i'm being scared shitless of you.... Not at all...
I'm chill now.. (And i will hide in a nearby cave or something.. Just to be safe)
I've also got an ice-breathing dragon enhancement, so I can provide assistance if you need help chilling. 