What "good balance in the game" mean for You?

[Sj8407]

I created that thread because I am curious, what other players understand by "good balance" in gwent? Because it can mean absolutely different things for different players. For me for example gwent will be well balanced when with every faction You will be able to create a deck, that will be able to beat and counter every other deck/faction in the game. It is normal that You can loose because a bad draw, or because Your opponent is better skilled than You. But it is not normal when to beat one specific deck/faction You have to stuff Your deck with things, that will be bricks in game with another faction, and in the end of the day it is impossible to create a deck that will able to stood fair chances with every other deck that it will face.
So, that is my definition of a good balance. And what is Yours?

 

[Pacifixer]

Well, this is an interesting topic
I think the perfect balance is when: 1/2 of archetipes/decks from every faction are competitively viable, they all have equal win rate and play rate, and the other half is not that far behind. With every balance patch meta is forcefully shifted towards archetipes/deck that were weaker last season - this way the game remains not just balanced, but fresh as well. And THE MOST IMPORTANT think - games at higher lvls ( rank 7 or higher) are decided purely by skill.
It all sounds nice, but lets be realistic - it's impossible! So lets look at what is (or at least should be) possible:
1.) Skill based gameplay - the backbone of every competitive game. Skilled player should be able to overcome bad luck! Winner shouldn't be decided by draws alone. There shouldn't be a situation/match in which you couldn't have played any better and still lost. Sometimes you just get unplayable hand or unwinable matchup, that's fine, as long as these cases are very Very VERY rare.
2.) Meta equality (win rate). The difference in power between Tier 1, T2 and T3 meta deck should be very small.
3.) Equal meta viability. Every faction should have at least 3 different meta decks - and by different i don't mean Passiflora with 3 different leaders, but rather Passiflora, Gord and Swarm + leader variations.
4.) Evolving meta. Meta should't be stale, even when devs do nothing, meta should change. This is the opposite of balance, but it doesn't contradict the points above.
5.) Pro rank exclusivity. Pro rank should't be something that anyone can get after playing the game for two weeks. It's called pro rank not noob rank.
6.) Card variety. There shouldn't be a card, that is in every single deck - Endrega Larva, Bomb Heaver, ..... At least some decks should be drastically different from the rest of the meta options.

 

[quintivarium]

Balance is a complicated issue with a huge number of facets: I don't think I can give a good overview of my thinking on the topic is a reasonable time, but I will try.

First, to me the main purpose of balance is to keep the game fun: it should ensure the game is fair and intellectually stimulating. It should support strategy (as opposed to luck), creativity (as opposed to repetition), and a sense of equivalence at all playing levels (beginner as well as pro).

A balanced game requires balance between factions, balance across a wide variety of decks, and balance between cards.

Balance between factions to me would mean well designed decks should be viable against all factions without needing specific effort solely to address one faction to the detriment of performance against others. No faction should have a significantly above average win rate against any other faction.

Balance across a variety of decks means that cards and combos are only balanced if they enhance the variety of viable decks. Any deck, combo, or card that invalidates entire styles of play or archetypes is unbalanced regardless of the win rates it generates. No deck should dominate play; indeed, no simple meta should even dominate.

Finally, balance between cards means that no card is clearly preferable under all conditions than another, and that all cards have potential for meaningful, competitive play -- at least in certain circumstances.

Before someone says this is impossible, I will cite an example where it happened: Spellcraft: Descent into Chaos. If one CCG can manage this, others can as well.

 

[DRK3]

On a very short style (unlike my typical posts...)

I think good balance would be when the difference between quality of each deck/archetype would be the least.
That way, you could actually use the decks and strategies you like, and if you're skilled enough, you always have a shot at winning.

 

[Six-Sided-Prism]

To start, I just want the existing provision system to be properly balanced so that every card at a specific provision cost will have an average value that is more or less equivalent. It's asinine when some 4- and 5-provision cards consistently get more value than many 6- and 7-provision cost cards, and it's confusing that the developers don't seem to pay much attention to a card's provision costs during the design process when the provision system is the most important aspect of card balance in this game (seeing as there's no mana/cost system once a match has started).

 

[uber_croupier]

I think good balance would be when the difference between quality of each deck/archetype would be the least.
That way, you could actually use the decks and strategies you like, and if you're skilled enough, you always have a shot at winning.

Well, this is an interesting topic
I think the perfect balance is when: 1/2 of archetipes/decks from every faction are competitively viable, they all have equal win rate and play rate, and the other half is not that far behind. With every balance patch meta is forcefully shifted towards archetipes/deck that were weaker last season - this way the game remains not just balanced, but fresh as well. And THE MOST IMPORTANT think - games at higher lvls ( rank 7 or higher) are decided purely by skill.
It all sounds nice, but lets be realistic - it's impossible! So lets look at what is (or at least should be) possible:
1.) Skill based gameplay - the backbone of every competitive game. Skilled player should be able to overcome bad luck! Winner shouldn't be decided by draws alone. There shouldn't be a situation/match in which you couldn't have played any better and still lost. Sometimes you just get unplayable hand or unwinable matchup, that's fine, as long as these cases are very Very VERY rare.
2.) Meta equality (win rate). The difference in power between Tier 1, T2 and T3 meta deck should be very small.
3.) Equal meta viability. Every faction should have at least 3 different meta decks - and by different i don't mean Passiflora with 3 different leaders, but rather Passiflora, Gord and Swarm + leader variations.
4.) Evolving meta. Meta should't be stale, even when devs do nothing, meta should change. This is the opposite of balance, but it doesn't contradict the points above.

This.

And to achieve that, CDP should not be afraid to experiment with cards. We can understand it's hard to get things right, Gwent is a complex game with room for error.

Is card new and you want to maintain mechanics? Increase the cost for this card and see what happens.
You think card goes to far if not removed? Make it easier to stop by reducing it's power.
You think you overdid it? Ask your audience what they think it could be done about it.

Maybe I jumped a bit off-topic, but I thought stating the obvious about even win rates could be considered spam

5.) Pro rank exclusivity. Pro rank should't be something that anyone can get after playing the game for two weeks. It's called pro rank not noob rank.

What's wrong with that? If someone is new to the game and reaches pro in two weeks, s/he is a bloody genius and definitely deserves to be there. Unless they just abuse OP net-decks, then let them go to hell

 

[Guest 4404014]

1) Making the chance-to-win ratios between different decks (this is on neutral draws and piloting) as close to 50/50 as possible with MEANINGFUL (not arbitrary) variations depending on factors such as teching, specific strengths and weaknesses, etc. That is as long as the decks are competent, ofc.

In other words, making situations like matching up with Double Ball as Devotion NR (maybe 15% to win?) or as Elves with SK (5%?) as seldom as possible.

2) Not allowing any one deck to achieve over 50% chance to win over almost every other deck in the game. As is the case with SK now.

3) Minimizing draw dependency. At this point, I believe, draw dependency reached a level where it is often impossible to win neutral match ups if your hand has 2 or 3 golds less than your opponent's and you missed your tutor and they didn't.

4) Minimizing binary interactions. Hard to elaborate without giving a dozen examples.

 

[Pacifixer]

What's wrong with that? If someone is new to the game and reaches pro in two weeks, s/he is a bloody genius and definitely deserves to be there. Unless they just abuse OP

Currently Gwent is a bit lacking in the skill department. High ranks and even pro rank are filled with new players, that have no idea what they're doing.

 

[Guest 4368268]

To me well balanced means several things but most prominently that the strongest deck with the strongest cards (tier 1) will still lose to tier 2/3 if piloted poorly and/or the opponent piloted his deck better. I get there'll always be a 'strongest faction/deck' and I'm OK with that but when the strongest cards and decks are so OP that even if sequenced badly you'll win with them the balance is off.

The problem is that to accomplish this the game needs to be complex so that skill actually comes into it. I remember when Gernichora was the deck of the moment and players that had signed up 1/2 weeks prior boasted on social media about immediately reaching pro rank with it. That reflects terribly on the game.
Homecoming is notoriously simplistic and this has been the root cause of many issues that plague it.

Let's look at the meta decks prior to HC for an example, Alchemy Nilfgaard and Greatswords.
Greatswords was a very strong deck that could easily run away with the win. Yet there were ways to make an opponent misplay. The timing in which they actually played their cards and especially when they passed or rather didn't pass made a huge difference. There were also efficient tech cards you could use to help you in this match-up.
Tech cards that didn't feel like they'd always be great regardless but equally didn't feel terrible in any other match-up.

Compare that to the SK deck of the moment or Dijkstra townsfolk or Artifacts Schirru and so forth. They have a very high point ceiling and it takes very little understanding of the game to make use of it.

 

[nedders]

There's so much wrong with it I don't quite know where to start. Fundamentally, balance should mean:

- Fairness for each player, either through a better distribution of cards (pre-HC gold/silver/bronze) or an equal deal at the start of the match.
- 2/3 archetypes per faction, all being viable
- Removal of leader tutoring for everybody
- Removal of the Usurper leader ability
- Reinstatement of three rows to ensure more variety in strategies and cards, plus just more cards being played
- Removal of binary anti-game statuses such as poison, rupture, defender

I actually think if you could only build a deck from the cards at 8 provs and below, you'd have a really good game that's a hell of a lot more fun. The main source of frustration in Gwent is the stupid, ill-conceived 9 point and above cards. They're ALL unnecessary to have a good, fun game. Most of them are considerably stronger than the leader ability - Morkvarg, Van Moorlen, Damian, etc. - which in itself is just utterly stupid. Then you have 11 point trash like Saskia as well. Basically, if you didn't have legendary cards, you'd have a decent game!!

 

[uber_croupier]

***OFFTOPIC***

Currently Gwent is a bit lacking in the skill department. High ranks and even pro rank are filled with new players, that have no idea what they're doing.

IMO, you should blame CDP for that. They don't seem to care for veteran players after gaining more audience from Steam and Android. Look at amount of really good feedback from all of us that is being ignored.

I am not surprised those people are leaving.

 

[nedders]

***OFFTOPIC***


IMO, you should blame CDP for that. They don't seem to care for veteran players after gaining more audience from Steam and Android. Look at amount of really good feedback from all of us that is being ignored.

I am not surprised those people are leaving.

Veterans aren't where the money is. Seems they (CDPR) are looking for fast reward instead of longevity and prestige. That only ends one way.

There should be a balance, and long time players should be listened to as they are clearly intent on making the game survive and thrive through the right mechanics and gameplay. Whoever's in charge at CDPR - Jason, I guess - is looking for quick returns. Wouldn't surprise me to see it just shut down overnight having pocketed as much change as it can.

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

I actually think if you could only build a deck from the cards at 8 provs and below, you'd have a really good game that's a hell of a lot more fun.

If there was one change I could implement and nothing else, it would be this.
The game is uniteresting and dull as your strategy relies on playing your most powerfull cards, hence the prevalence of tutors. By reducing the power level of multiple high provision cards, so many more archetypes or cards would be viable.
Why? Because you would free up provision cost, to support archetypes.

 

[sfruzz]

I don't desire the game to be perfeclty balanced. I put interesting abilities over balance. I like the game to be asymmetric... else why have different factions?

Having all factions with similar tools (see the 7 pt slot of the latest expansion: Dunca, Herkja, Apiarian Phantom,...), is a poor way to try to balance a cardgame.

Some balance is required, though.

Veterans aren't where the money is.

I wouldn' t be so sure. On one hand veteran players don't need to buy kegs to support their collections, but on the other, they are also likely to be more invested into the game and willing to buy / support.

 

[Guest 4404014]

Currently Gwent is a bit lacking in the skill department.

I don't know about that. Imo Gwent is extremely punishing for misplays. Outside SK .

High ranks and even pro rank are filled with new players, that have no idea what they're doing.

But that doesn't matter. Pro is just non-beginner player pool. The real thing is top 500. I can't say for myself but I imagine that you won't be getting many noobs above 2500 MMR. Except SK.

Veterans aren't where the money is. Seems they (CDPR) are looking for fast reward instead of longevity and prestige. That only ends one way.

I don't know. I can't think of a game that would be more F2P friendly. And I don't think CDPR is looking for prestige. They already got it aplenty.

 

[Lexor]

Removal of the Usurper leader ability

Usurper's leader ability is one of the important existing things in the game as players can use it to "make the game playable" every time CDPR messes something up (and they often do that).

 

[nedders]

Usurper's leader ability is one of the important existing things in the game as players can use it to "make the game playable" every time CDPR messes something up (and they often do that).

Actually, I'll clarify - remove all the leader ability nonsense. It was a shit idea in the first place.

Post automatically merged: Jul 29, 2020

To add to the OP - I'll tell you what balance ISN'T; facing an opponent NG deck that can mill your own deck, effortlessly, to ensure you can draw no cards R3. If that doesn't show the dev team how broken this game is, nothing will.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

I don't know about that. Imo Gwent is extremely punishing for misplays. Outside SK .



But that doesn't matter. Pro is just non-beginner player pool. The real thing is top 500. I can't say for myself but I imagine that you won't be getting many noobs above 2500 MMR. Except SK.



I don't know. I can't think of a game that would be more F2P friendly. And I don't think CDPR is looking for prestige. They already got it aplenty.

Legends of Runeterra is a competing card game that is easily more free to play friendly, so far.

 

[rrc]

Legends of Runeterra is a competing card game that is easily more free to play friendly, so far.

Well.. what are the odds.. I searched for the LoR thread and posted a comment and then started reading the Forum and here we are! My post on the other thread copy pasted:

I am not very sure @StrykerS77, I follow swim in twitter and his latest tweet gives me an impression that LoR meta is pretty stale and boring - that too this quickly after the release..

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288659364820086784

"Pulling Mogwai" means that Mogwai had taken a break from LoR due to stale boring meta it seems.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288663100351184896

Post automatically merged: Jul 30, 2020

Actually, I'll clarify - remove all the leader ability nonsense. It was a shit idea in the first place.

Post automatically merged: Jul 29, 2020

To add to the OP - I'll tell you what balance ISN'T; facing an opponent NG deck that can mill your own deck, effortlessly, to ensure you can draw no cards R3. If that doesn't show the dev team how broken this game is, nothing will.

I would face a Mill deck any day if given an option between them or (SK nonsense, Double Ball nonsense, etc.). Mill is the easiest deck to face against as they put sh*t tempo on board and even with near perfect draws by opponent, you can easily win against it. AFAIK, I would have won against Mill deck 95% of the time. And every expansion, with the amount of powercreep creeping into the game, Mill decks go out of favor real quick.

 

[Smith_X]

balances in my understanding is the single dominate deck should not exist because it will lead to an environment that players want to play Deck A and another players plays Anti Deck A. At least 3-4 different faction decks in the same top tiers seems balance and more fun.

there are several way to foster balance environment
- good card design is one thing but it is tough
- balance change nerf OP or buff UP cards also bring the good balance
- or add some new cards to change the meta before the expansion out.

but balance change also lead to another problem -- nerf card or mechanic cause some deck is unable to play, not only in Gwent but in almost every digital card game. As you can see, Harmony is so strong and now it's all gone because of simple mechanic nerf. While players spend all of their scrap (especially new player) to make one tournament deck but after nerf, they lost it all due to Gwent does not have full scrap refund (nor duplicate protection when open keg)