What is the point of Item Levels?

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So, why would they put item levels in this game if the items we pick up scale to our character level. Example:

I'm lvl 5, and pick up a gun that is "Red" meaning I'm too low a level to use it. The required level on this weapon is lvl 12. I hold on to it until level 12.

By the time I'm lvl 12, all of the weapons I'm picking up do a lot more damage since they scale with my level, making this earlier weapon I picked up pointless.

What am I missing here?
 
So, why would they put item levels in this game if the items we pick up scale to our character level. Example:

I'm lvl 5, and pick up a gun that is "Red" meaning I'm too low a level to use it. The required level on this weapon is lvl 12. I hold on to it until level 12.

By the time I'm lvl 12, all of the weapons I'm picking up do a lot more damage since they scale with my level, making this earlier weapon I picked up pointless.

What am I missing here?

I think the item levels are related to what you are killing, which somewhat scales to level. stop killing high or deadly stuff I suppose. There are some fixed level boxes as well I think, but not many
 
So, why would they put item levels in this game if the items we pick up scale to our character level. Example:

I'm lvl 5, and pick up a gun that is "Red" meaning I'm too low a level to use it. The required level on this weapon is lvl 12. I hold on to it until level 12.

By the time I'm lvl 12, all of the weapons I'm picking up do a lot more damage since they scale with my level, making this earlier weapon I picked up pointless.

What am I missing here?

In a game that is strictly linear where A -> B -> C in a straight line, then you don't need level scaling because the player's level and experience can be predicted by the devs and they can hand place items for you at specific points in the game and balance combat accordingly.

A game like Cyberpunk has a linear story but is freeroam, meaning you are free to do B -> A -> C or C -> B -> A to a limited degree. Main missions and side story arcs are of course sequential but you can do the arcs in different orders, do side or minor quest content before tackling main missions etc.

So the devs can't predict what level you will be when you do C. If there is no level scaling and they hand place loot, what that does is create an optimal path through the game and every other path is inefficient. It also creates scenarios where players know where all the good loot is by watching a youtube guide and go get that stuff first, which trivializes the rest of the game and break all combat encounters.

So in freeroam games where you can do quests in different orders, they scale loot to player level so that no quest order can be incorrect or inefficient. You won't be punished by doing Panam's main arc and side arc before Judy's.

The problem with level scaling is if you scale all the enemies and items to player level, nothing ever feels more or less difficult. You become like a car travelling on a freeway doing 120 kph. You don't feel the sensation of acceleration because all other objects around you are moving at the same speed. You only get that senstion of speed when accelerating to 120 kph and seeing all the stationary objects whiz past you.

Same with players and enemies in videogames. You don't feel the sense of growing power if all the enemies grow in power at the same rate as you. You only get that sensation when you outgrow enemies and roflstomp them when previously you struggled against them.

So Cyberpunk has a hybrid approach. It does level scale loot to your level but it also throws you loot that is slightly over or under levelled so you have something to look forward to equipping. It does scale enemies to player level but only within pre defined ranges so you can go to City Center and start a fight at level 10 but you will get destroyed because the Militech guys there have a minimum level of like 25. And if you manage to cheese them, they can sometimes drop loot you can't equip yet because you don't meet the minimum level.

This is to give the player the sensation that yeah, you can go anywhere and do anything in any order, but we are going to deliberately make some areas harder than others in certain level ranges to spice things up and give you problems to solve. But they won't be insurmountable problems.

If you pick up a level 12 weapon at level 5, it will have level 12 stats. So the stuff you pick up when you reach level 12 won't have better or worse base stats (although it may have different random attributes making one better than the other).

For the most part though, loot scales to your level when you get within a certain radius of it and when you save/load. There are some bugs that prevent item level scaling correctly. Many NCPD assault reward containers never scale loot so they are always green and have level 1 stats.

There is also a rather serious bug where if you leave unlooted corpses on the ground, the corpse loot permanently resets to level 1 if you save and reload. This will also downgrade the item's quality (colour) when the item level falls below a predefined minimum.
 
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The biggest cheese is a silenced revolver doing headshots from just outside of detection. This you can do as low as lvl10.
 

msxyz

Forum regular
Levelled items are a poor bandaid to tone down a certain degree enemy level scaling, which in itself is a cheap expedient to keep the game challenging.

A carefully crafted game doesn't need to have level scaling: even in a open world, players will learn to avoid certain enemies or situations till they're skilled enough to cope with them. Unfortunately, there are also those players who don't put effort into character building and want to go everywhere and take on every enemy right from the beginning. Said players also complain if they're slaughtered on the spot during a high level encounter blaming the game of possessing poor balance. Since this crowd of 'instant gratification' players apparently get bigger with time (in no small part thanks to mobile games) developers had to introduce this mechanisms to tryn to please the widest audience possible.
 
Enemy level scaling is the bane of open world games. Done badly like in Oblivion inefficient scaling can lead to your character becoming weaker with each level, making min maxing the only way to play.

In the defence of cyberpunk it at least doesn't fall into this trap, and it is doing something interesting with the mission difficulty levels which means that not everything is scaled to exactly your level. But the enemy and loot scaling does end up coming off as pretty haphazard and in my opinion needs releveling.

I found the "Little man big mouth" mission for example to be ridiculously high leveled with each gang member needing 3-5 epic anti personnel granades sat on top of them to kill them and they could 2 hit you at level 30. Compared to this going on loud on the Arasaka base infiltration at the same level was a joke.

I think the min levels on items is to allow the game to spawn items to beef up enemies without making the player stronger. Them being week by the time you can use them essentially locks you out of using them for anything other than scrap or selling.

A particularly egregious example minimum levelled loot is the straw hat in the Sandra Dawsett rescue mission, which is too high a level for the player to wear at that point in the game. Since it's always there I can only assume it's CDPR trolling the player.
 
Enemy level scaling is the bane of open world games.

What is an alternative to allow engagement with many individual pieces of content in any order? A convenient alternative. I'm not claiming you are wrong. I'm genuinely curious.

Even with a simple example of content A, B and C I would expect it to be extremely difficult. If you do A first then B and C might be too easy. If you do C first it might be too difficult to complete. If you do C first and it is harder but doable then A and B might still be too easy.

It's simple if the intent is for a player to go from A, to B, to C, ad infinitum. It's another story when the intent is for the player to do those three sections of content in any order.

What are we talking here? Enemy upscaling instead of absolute scaling? I'll admit I used this in TW3 to keep the lesser content engaging. I only disabled it for combat involving 40 million rats and specific combat encounters where it was bugged (Djinn fight comes to mind). Granted, I hit a point in TW3 where levels were more a measure of fight length and repair costs. Not success or failure. This is still a form of scaling.
 
What is an alternative to allow engagement with many individual pieces of content in any order? A convenient alternative. I'm not claiming you are wrong. I'm genuinely curious.

Even with a simple example of content A, B and C I would expect it to be extremely difficult. If you do A first then B and C might be too easy. If you do C first it might be too difficult to complete. If you do C first and it is harder but doable then A and B might still be too easy.

It's simple if the intent is for a player to go from A, to B, to C, ad infinitum. It's another story when the intent is for the player to do those three sections of content in any order.

What are we talking here? Enemy upscaling instead of absolute scaling? I'll admit I used this in TW3 to keep the lesser content engaging. I only disabled it for combat involving 40 million rats and specific combat encounters where it was bugged (Djinn fight comes to mind). Granted, I hit a point in TW3 where levels were more a measure of fight length and repair costs. Not success or failure. This is still a form of scaling.

yup, the reality is that weapon and enemy scaling are very needed here.

There's only two ways this type of game could work, imo. No lvl scaling at all, or something similar to what we have here.

they chose levels, because people like levels/progression in rpgs as a standard.

Even if it didn't have level scaling, it would still need scaling though, due to perk levels/gear.

but yeah, I started a game at level 50 with mods, and it works pretty well in the beginning anyhow. No fights are super easy and gear/build matters. Going into Pacifica, with average level gear/build is still pretty dangerous.

The problem the OP is having, is mostly because they have minimum levels, or some level locked gear here and there. For second playthroughs I think starting at 50 is pretty cool tho.
 
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