What is your biggest fear regarding CP2077

[Rawls]

- as far as I understand it, they are trying to reassure the 2020 fans about the mechanics.

I disagree. The statement on it's face is trying to reassure us about the unique feel of the game. The feel of the game is not any specific mechanic. It's the danger, the corruption, the noir themes, the tech, the sense of hopelessness tempered by the ambition to "make it", etc etc. Turn based combat, character creation customization, etc are not unique to any PnPs, heck they're basically ubiquitous. It's a necessary staple of the medium. Something like life path is a more "unique" mechanic for CP2020, and I will note it made it into CP2077 - though obviously more limited in it's options so far as we have seen.

 

[Sild]

Something like life path is a more "unique" mechanic for CP2020, and I will note it made it into CP2077 - though obviously more limited in it's options so far as we have seen.

Again limited by the medium, if any kind of meaningful consequences are to be expected. Because it must fall withing the limits and considerations of the story teller i.e. CDPR and we all know the feedback between player and gm is non-existent in terms of story driven video games.

 

[SigilFey]

- as far as I understand it, they are trying to reassure the 2020 fans about the mechanics.

But, only within the context of this being a video game (read: not a direct translation of the 2020 sourcebook mechanics into digital form).

Many games have attempted to very directly translate PnP sourcebooks into digital form. Some have been really well-received: Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights series for D&D, Fallout 1 and 2 for GURPS, Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines for VtM... Others have met with middling or poor reception: Temple of Elemental Evil or the Pool of Radiance remake for D&D, Vampire: The Masquerade - Redemption for VtM...

Being 100% faithful does not guarantee that a game will be successful. Departing drastically from the source material does not guarantee a game will fail outright. The only way a game is successful is if it has a sense of itself and remains faithful to its own vision. If something works, it stays; if it doesn't, it changes to something else that does work.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I disagree. The statement on it's face is trying to reassure us about the unique feel of the game.

As a response to a selfmade statement of fans possibly being worried about mechanics.

It'd be like saying.... "Some pizza enthusiasts might think considering pineapple is blasbhemy. But rest assured, we are working hard with our top-chef to make sure the water/flour ratio is absolutely right for a nice crust."

It makes no sense. There's no relation between the acknowledgement of the possible problem and the reassurement.

Turn based combat, character creation customization, etc are not unique to any PnPs, heck they're basically ubiquitous.

Neither is eating your pizza with a fork or a knife, but it sure beats eating it with your dirty feet. Or, similiarly, trying to fork through your bowl of soup. Or drinking your fine wine straight from the bottle instead of from the glass specifically designed for it; you get what it is about, fermented grapes, yay, but the experience is incomplete.

But, only within the context of this being a video game

Obviously.

100% translation was out of the question to begin with, even "as close as BG was" was.

 

[Rawls]

It'd be like saying.... "Some pizza enthusiasts might think considering pineapple is blasbhemy. But rest assured, we are working hard with our top-chef to make sure the water/flour ratio is absolutely right for a nice crust."

eh ... I think it's more akin to, "some pizza enthusiasts might think converting this recipe to a calzone is blasphemy. But rest assured, we are working hard with the pizza's original creator to make sure the flavor comes out right, even if we have to change some of the ingredients in the process."

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

calzone

I was thinking more of a salty pie made on shortcrust pastry. At most.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

"Some pizza enthusiasts might think considering pineapple is blasbhemy. But rest assured, we are working hard with our top-chef to make sure the water/flour ratio is absolutely right for a nice crust."

It makes no sense.

Now I respect you more. Much more.

 

[SigilFey]

Stop trying to turn this into another pizza chat! I see what you're doing!!!

 

[njeffcoat]

Pineapple should not be on pizza!

 

[Mebrilia]

eh ... I think it's more akin to, "some pizza enthusiasts might think converting this recipe to a calzone is blasphemy. But rest assured, we are working hard with the pizza's original creator to make sure the flavor comes out right, even if we have to change some of the ingredients in the process."

Except like i said even if the game works differently in mechanics the flawor is completely wrong. The difference is pretty much the same between.
Ghost in the shell: The animated movie (beautiful story with very mature and grey thematic)
Ghost in the shell: Hollywood version. (Regular action movie that has the visual of the sorce material an nothing else)
This is the feel i get from the gameplay and i honestly believe that hurts the setting as a whole. If mechanics were alterered but preserved the spirit of the pen and paper was different in this case the spirit of the pen and paper in the gameplay is not there.

Story is important in a rpg. But again RPG were never ever supposed to be interactive movies.
Actually that was a nice find Rawl but i think is important to post that blogpost as a whole because they indeed had a different intention at the time they even declared at some point you would be able to print your character shreet from the game and play it in the pen and paper this indicates a lot what were their intetion before problem is this intention ninja changed at some point.

 

[Rawls]

Except like i said even if the game works differently in mechanics the flawor is completely wrong.

I think it's fair to just say we'll agree to disagree. Mechanics are not the flavor of Cyberpunk for me, and while I love the PnP, cRPGs in my opinion should not be beholden to table top RPG mechanics. They are different mediums that ought to use different designs so as to accentuate what each platform does well.

But again RPG were never ever supposed to be interactive movies.

Well the demo doesn't look like an interactive movie to me. Interactive movie implies that the player has virtually no agency in movement / actions, but just makes choices and watches it play out ... that's clearly not the case here.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Mechanics are not the flavor of Cyberpunk for me

That’s fair.

I’ve always considered mechanics as part of the storytelling. If they work in a manner that is traditional to RPG’s - letting the character try at any spot and succeed or fail based on his own faculties - they already tell a story on top of what the developer wrote. They spice it up to the player.

I.e. if you encountered a locked door and tried to pick it open for ten times and only succeeded at the eleventh try, as annoying as it sounds as a written idea, you’re more likely to remember it as part of your characters journey. And if you’re really roleplaying, you’ll also consider it that (and probably fill in the blanks on ”why” the character failed.... was he not concentrating, did he have a sudden itch to his back, did a fly just fly to his eye, did he have a spasm, what ever) rather than an annoyance to yourself. The next run you might succeed on the first attempt - and then you already have a different story and experience. It’s a small thing, but when you actually have loads of those situations, it starts to matter.

That’s, kind of, the sort of ”immersion” I’m looking for in an RPG, to get sunk into the characters world and predicaments as s/he might face them (based on my desicions as the player).

It could play by the rules of GURPS or Rune Quest or D20 or some selfmade system as long as the core principle is the same. It doesn’t really matter in the big picture; other than that Cyberpunks own rules are the already made for purpose and there’s some respect to the franchise in using precisely them.

The sort of baby-proof and oversimplified wishy-washy what-ever systems used in trendy action RPG’s put a tremendous dent on achieving that kind of fuller experience, they can not deliver even half of it and most of the time remind you that you are indeed playing a videogame and gaming its system ”to win”.

 

[Rawls]

It could play by the rules of GURPS or Rune Quest or D20 or some selfmade system as long as the core principle is the same. It doesn’t really matter in the big picture; other than that Cyberpunks own rules are the already made for purpose and there’s some respect to the franchise in using precisely them.

Yeah I think this is a fair way to view it as well. I will say that there are certain concepts that I think are core to the Cyberpunk feel (like lifepath, netrunning, cyberware, humanity cost, roles, style over substance, the danger of combat, etc). These are central to the feel of the game IMO. But I don't consider how they functionally operate to be crucial to the Cyberpunk feel.

For instance, I almost never used the CP2020 rules for netrunning, because they were overly cumbersome and took up too much time for a gaming session involving multiple players. I found you would end up spending more time on the netrunner, than most of the other players combined.

 

[cara2100]

my fear with the creation of your own character he runs out of charisma, I prefer games like the witcher with geralt

 

[Suhiira]

I think it's fair to just say we'll agree to disagree. Mechanics are not the flavor of Cyberpunk for me, and while I love the PnP, cRPGs in my opinion should not be beholden to table top RPG mechanics. They are different mediums that ought to use different designs so as to accentuate what each platform does well.

I'll agree that mechanics have little to do with the Cyberpunk flavor I think they are important in a CP2020 based game.

And you forget, one thing PCs do extremely well is table look-ups, RNGs, and record keeping. In a good many ways they're perfect for PnP game conversions because they can deal with the tedious and repetitious paperwork and allow the player to just play the game.

 

[Marquis_deShade]

I just watched the following video.

One takeaway from the video, something I've heard mentioned before several times in various places is that CDPR is VERY passionate about Cyberpunk, and have been quoted as saying "We had Communism, and we had Cyberpunk".
Another take away to highlight that passion details Mike Pondsmith discussing the pen and paper game with CDPR where the team at CDPR would bring up things about the game he'd completely forgotten about, and he wrote the material; they seemed to know the game and have better presence of working knowledge of the game than the creator of it.

As such, it might be worthwhile to take that into consideration; CDPR's passion for the original pen and paper game, their presence of working knowledge regarding original game mechanics and world detail, as well as their established pro-consumer, pro-game fan history in the foundations they've built with The Witcher series.

We know there's going to be sacrifices, and certain translations of game-play elements finessed from the pen and paper game to appeal to a broader audience than say, a turn-based 3D isometric like what we saw with Shadowrun Returns.

A turn-based 3D isometric would allow for a much more literal translation from pen and paper to screen, but, we're not getting that. We're getting something more immersive, that puts us behind the eyes of the protagonist and in the driver seat.
I'm not a game designer, so, I'm not even going to try to pretend to know what compromises must be made for a believable translation from pen and paper to an active First-Person-Perspective world where the action doesn't stop for you to make turn-based decisions.
I get the impression, however, from CDPR's stated historic interest and familiarity with the game, that they're fairly keen to do the project just deserves.

 

[Suhiira]

One takeaway from the video, something I've heard mentioned before several times in various places is that CDPR is VERY passionate about Cyberpunk, and have been quoted as saying "We had Communism, and we had Cyberpunk".

A turn-based 3D isometric would allow for a much more literal translation from pen and paper to screen, but, we're not getting that. We're getting something more immersive, that puts us behind the eyes of the protagonist and in the driver seat.
I'm not a game designer, so, I'm not even going to try to pretend to know what compromises must be made for a believable translation from pen and paper to an active First-Person-Perspective world where the action doesn't stop for you to make turn-based decisions.
I get the impression, however, from CDPR's stated historic interest and familiarity with the game, that they're fairly keen to do the project just deserves.

For a translation from a PnP to an FPS I think CDPR is pretty much spot on. If that's the game you're looking for I have little doubt you'll love it.

The problem is FPSs and RPGs contain some mutually exclusive game mechanics, an FPS cannot be an RPG, an RPG cannot be an FPS.

 

[sinister.sinner]

It can and it was already done a few times over the past twenty years. Some times with more rpg elements and sometimes with very lite elements.

Reading a lot of your posts on here I totally get it. You are a huge fan of 2020 and you wanted it translated as close as possible into a video game (Shadowrun/Divinity: O.S. style).
But I'm afraid looking at it realistically that was never on the table.

Will 2077 be a true hardcore RPG? Probably won't, no. Will it be the best immersive cyberpunk open world first person cinematic action RPG yet? I'm pretty sure it will.
Was this the way to follow the success of TW3 to grow as a company and triple AAA video game developer? Yes.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

But I don't consider how they functionally operate to be crucial to the Cyberpunk feel.

If one only appreciates the fiction of the franchise, it is indeed irrelevant how the game in that fiction works. However, my point of view is of the experience as a whole, nice setting and drama therein can only go so far alone.

For a bit of a tangent, there is a guy on Youtube who made some really neat Let's Plays. I generally try to stay away from those, but this the only one I think bears watching as the guy really puts on the RPG gear and does an excellent job at it (it also kinda illustrates my earlier point, partly).

He also has Fallout 2 and Baldur's Gate and such, but this was the shortest (very short). If there's time to take a peek.

You are a huge fan of 2020 and you wanted it translated as close as possible into a video game (Shadowrun/Divinity: O.S. style).

You're probably referring to suhiira, but if I may chime in... Iso/TB games were on the table of slight possibilities only very early on, when there was nothing but an announcement. But since that, it's been very clear that style was out of the question and there's been boatload of discussions, suggestions, ideas, etc, on how to bring the sort of FPS/RPG-thing that the game seems to be becoming closer to the "RPG ideal" without insisting on the isometric/turnbased style.

 

[Rawls]

But since that, it's been very clear that style was out of the question and there's been boatload of discussions, suggestions, ideas, etc, on how to bring the sort of FPS/RPG-thing that the game seems to be becoming closer to the "RPG ideal" without insisting on the isometric/turnbased style.

I still think skills that combat skills that effect things like weapon sway, recoil, reload speed, parrying/blocking and etc could go a long ways towards giving the character some agency in the game.