What language is "original" in the Witcher 3

[iCake]

What language is "original" in the Witcher 3

Hey guys.

I know this has been talked over before, but apparently my google skills suck. What I remember from those threads is that English voice over is in fact original. But what about text alone, were the story, dialouges, plot etc. first written in English, then translated to other languages? I kind of have a hunch that the text is first and foremost Polish but I can't find any in depth info on localizations. Someone, please, tell me if I'm right here and link some articles, interviews, maybe even posts from CDPR stuff here or whatnot to prove the point. Thanks guys.

 

[sv3672]

As far as I know, they write in Polish first in the pre-production phase, after all, that is the native language of all the main writers. Then, during production, the dialogues (which go through a few stages of review and refinement) and other text are finalized and translated to English, perhaps some of the English text might still be translated back to Polish if it is an improvement over the original. Voice acting is done in English first, other languages are recorded later and can be completed during post-production when the content is otherwise done already. Disclaimer: this is from various bits of information I have seen, it might not be quite correct. Others like Shavod or TheImpZA could tell more, or even better, developers could give the best and most reliable answer.

In short, Polish is first I think for writing, and English for voice acting.

 

[Riven-Twain]

This episode of the recent Noclip's The Witcher Documentary Series gives a good general overview of the process:

There is no original language.

 

[iCake]

This episode of the recent Noclip's The Witcher Documentary Series gives a good general overview of the process:

That was a great video. Thanks for sharing! It doesn't really answer my question though, as I was perfectly aware that translation is way more complex than, well, simply translating. It really is an adaption coupled with a lot of creativity. That's why I put quotes around the word original in the title. But in any case, the vid does give a nice detailed look at how localizations were done and I did want to know more about that. So thanks again!

P.S. As a Russian (who apparantly did it) I find that example with a run-down Novigrad district "Bits" very contradictory and funny in a particularly bad way. Yes, they say that district is called bits for a reason and it makes perfect sense, but then we have a Russian name for it "Обрезки" (leftover pieces or "bits" for that matter produced by cutting something to give it a particular shape) and It just barely makes any sense in Russian and frankly sounds like an uninspired direct translation of the word "bits." When I first saw the name of thd district I was all like "What a weird weird name. Maybe a lot of carpenters live here for some reason?"

 

[sv3672]

Comparing the same line in various languages can be interesting, especially when an error is present in some languages, but not others. For example, if an error appears in the English line that is not there in Polish, and it is also in a number of (but not all) other languages, that gives the impression that those might have been translated from English, while others directly from Polish. This is not necessarily consistent in all parts of the game, however, and sometimes it is the English version that corrects an error in the Polish text.

 

[SigilFey]

Because of the fluency and nuances of idiomatic expression throughout the entire game, I don't think the writers "translated" anything. It seems to me as if the different versions were likely written simultaneously in English and Polish at least. I'm guessing the writers simply shared ideas cooperatively, then the English writers did their own thing and the Polish writers did their own thing. (I would imagine that's true of at least the English and Polish versions.)

In general, whenever a manuscript is translated, it almost always comes with certain, seemingly "empty" expressions or syntactic oddities...and I didn't detect a single one throughout the course of TW3. Even Harry Potter contained instances of obviously altered word choice that "fell flat" (where it was clear that something had been re-written / simplified to avoid idiomatic expression that would not have read to an American audience.) Vice versa, when something is written in the "native tongue", it contains a subtle balance and natural canter that's very difficult to simulate if certain words or expressions are being "dictated" by another piece of literature.

(If it was translated -- it was translated by a pro the likes of which CDPR should give a raise to and promote to Preatorian.)

As a Russian (who apparantly did it) I find that example with a run-down Novigrad district "Bits" very contradictory and funny in a particularly bad way. Yes, they say that district is called bits for a reason and it makes perfect sense, but then we have a Russian name for it "Обрезки" (leftover pieces or "bits" for that matter produced by cutting something to give it a particular shape) and It just barely makes any sense in Russian and frankly sounds like an uninspired direct translation of the word "bits." When I first saw the name of thd district I was all like "What a weird weird name. Maybe a lot of carpenters live here for some reason?"

This is a perfect example of what I mean. I believe your understanding is spot on, and the name "Bits" was meant as exactly that: an unplanned for section of the city that developed when low-class, run-off population built slums with the "leftovers" of proper city construction. The idiomatic expression in English is that the area is comprised of nothing that has worth or value...just little "bits" jumbled together. Despite the fact that it's inside the walls, it's not considered a good representation of Novigrad.

I don't claim to know Russian at all, but it's clear that the word "Обрезки" carries a slant that is not shared between Russian and English. For example (I mentioned this in another post a while back), the very first translation of a Witcher novel I read used the term "Law of Surprise", which works fine in English, then turned around and quite literally referred to Ciri as Geralt's "Surprise Child"...which was a terribly awkward and ineffective expression in English. The use of "surprise" in English carries an inherently positive slant, so:

"Law" carries a moderately negative slant. While the word itself is neutral, most Americans will associate "law" with the idea of wrong-doing or potential threat of punishment. When coupled with the positively slanted "surprise", the English expression "Law of Surprise" reads as an ironically loaded phrase that carries a decidedly dark connotation: "This is a potentially threatening action that can spring on you out of nowhere."

In contrast, "Surprise Child" is sort of silly. The use of two positively slanted words lends the image of a cute child popping out of a cake while shouting "Yipee!" to be covered in confetti. (Hardly what Sapkpowski was going for...) Later translations of the novel better handled the phrase by altering it to "Unexpected Child", using a word that carries a very neutral tone. However, it will automatically slant toward the negative in English reader's minds, as this is the term used to explain unplanned-for parenthood: "unexpected pregnancy" / "unexpected baby". It also follows the semantic and idiomatic structure of "Law of Suprise" (neutral term, auto-slanted toward the negative via cultural interpretation, followed by a positively slanted term that creates a darkly ironic connotation). "Unexpected Child" now also creates a darkly ironic realization that the child was gained through the Law of Surprise, and that Gerlat (a sterile Witcher) "accidentally had a baby"...very dark humor...which should now be making the readers' skin crawl, understanding what lies in store for this innocent child. (That's what Sapkowski intended, I'm pretty sure...)

Bla, bla, bla, I go...but these are the considerations that the writers for TW3 definitely understood. A failure to consider this level of nuance would have created many such issues between Polish and English, and I can't think of even one. Russian, it seems may have been translated, perhaps not by a "native" Russian speaker, given the issue you raise with "The Bits".

 

[sv3672]

(If it was translated -- it was translated by a pro the likes of which CDPR should give a raise to and promote to Preatorian.)

According to the credits, they do have two lead writers, and one specifically for the English version: Marcin Blacha is lead writer and Borys Pugacz-Muraszkiewicz is lead English writer. There is no similar separation for other writers. A number of people are also credited for English translation and QA, but I guess any important English text is reviewed by the lead writer?

 

[iCake]

Because of the fluency and nuances of idiomatic expression throughout the entire game, I don't think the writers "translated" anything. It seems to me as if the different versions were likely written simultaneously in English and Polish at least.

You know what's really interesting, is that the Russian version 99.9% all the time provides exactly the same feeling. Idiomatic expressions, introduction of new ideas, like names for that matter as virtually most places do sound like they carry their name proudly, or sometimes not so proudly, for a real reason. It's really just that particular example with "bits" that kind of hit a nail for me, I can't remember anything weird, at least on this scale, in the entire game after all. That's why this imperfection sticks out a mile, instead of an inch, that alone makes it funny that out of all names for places they chose this "rotten" one. But that aside, even jokes are on spot, but most impressively flavors, peasants sound like real Russian people you can find just in any relatively distant villages. They speak funny words here and there and have their unique ways of carrying conversations, even some personal melody to it. That's not what you can call an accent though and seeing how they said it was very important to them to get different accents right, it makes me just slightly sad the Russian version hardly ever delivers that accent distinction.

Remember that Skellige master armorer girl? There's a line where Geralts notes her "strange" accent. In Russian it was like "What accent, man? She speaks like everybody else!" Why I said "just slightly sad" you might ask, well, Russian just sounds pretty much the same throughout Russia, there are differencies but they mainly boil down to how fast people tend to talk or some really subtle tune to some syllables or sentences, some local words are way more indidative of speaker's origins. In fact the word accent itself is apparently more about foreigner's speaking Russian, local Russian accent actually defined by a whole different word in Russian, which can be rougly translated as "a manner of speaking." However, there are some distinguishable accents in Russia and the Witcher 2 recognized that by giving Kaedweni one of those and I freaking loved this extra bit!

I don't claim to know Russian at all, but it's clear that the word "Обрезки" carries a slant that is not shared between Russian and English.

The thing is обрезки can carry exactly the same slant but in a different context. Like if you order a piece of fine expensive cloth and what they bring you feels like deserving of nothing else rather of being a mop material. You then just angrily yell at them "Get your обрезки back. Bring me the real deal or I'll walk." In this context the word shifts more toward "scraps" and I guess you can have a very similar analogy in English but with food and scraps. But let's not turn it into a language lesson they tend to get boring after all. I think that обрезки doesn't work for a different reason. You go around that district and what do you see? A lot of rundown buildings that seem to be made of bricks mainly. If those were wooden buildings, обрезки would have worked just like a charm, especially if they looked like a patch work. Why's that? Remember I said обрезки is leftovers produced by cutting? You don't cut bricks, goddamit!

But now that I think of it, I can't really produce a good Russian translation for bits in this sense either, despite of brainstorming it, though multitaskingly, for a good half of the day. There are other words, but the also do seem to fall into the same trap here of being overspecific to the origins of leftovers, like chopping or even eating, but nothing remotely related to bricks. I guess that English is just so blessed to have a luxury of a broader term here.

For example (I mentioned this in another post a while back), the very first translation of a Witcher novel I read used the term "Law of Surprise", which works fine in English, then turned around and quite literally referred to Ciri as Geralt's "Surprise Child"...which was a terribly awkward and ineffective expression in English.

Ah, in Russian it's "the Right of Unxpectedness" to stay on the literal side, which I'm sure is utter nonsense in English.

Edit: sorry for double posting, one would think two consecutive post from the same user that are few minutes apart to boot would be automatically merged by the forum engine. Could you, please, do that for me then?

 

[SigilFey]

...the word accent itself is apparently more about foreigner's speaking Russian, local Russian accent actually defined by a whole different word in Russian, which can be rougly translated as "a manner of speaking." However, there are some distinguishable accents in Russia and the Witcher 2 recognized that by giving Kaedweni one of those and I freaking loved this extra bit!

This is fascinating. I know absolutely nothing of Russia. I took one trip to Moscow and, basically, it felt like a city, much like any other, except that it was full of Russians trying to stay warm. Plenty of drinks with the people we were with, though! (Which helped us stay warm. ) The language totally escaped me. I couldn't find any footing. (Like Arabic. Seven years in the Middle East, and the only things I have down solidly are all the bad words...)

Not having "regional accents" would feel very, very strange... I wish I could experience that from the same perspective and level of understanding that I have with English. That would be sooo weird! For crying out loud, if you travel 30 minutes on foot in any direction in London, the accents change completely.

Obviously, CDPR used a basic mix of Irish accents for Skellige, and the blacksmith's apprentice at Crow's Perch speaks with that in English. Extremely noticeable. I wonder how it would read to Russians if someone were to put the Irish accent on Russian speech? Maybe they tried it and it just didn't work. (Can't imagine how they handle the Asian languages...)

"Get your обрезки back. Bring me the real deal or I'll walk."

Alright...the English equivalent here would be "rubbish", "garbage", or "junk"...

Remember I said обрезки is leftovers produced by cutting? You don't cut bricks, goddamit!

...referring to wood or timber "not fit for building" would start to get idiomatic, but we could call that "firewood" or "kindling"...

There are other words, but the also do seem to fall into the same trap here of being overspecific to the origins of leftovers, like chopping or even eating, but nothing remotely related to bricks. I guess that English is just so blessed to have a luxury of a broader term here.

...and the same for bricks, we could figuratively say "rubble" or "gravel"...

"Bits" in English doesn't really associate itself with any particular material. Rather, small, disconnected pieces of a larger whole are universally called "bits". I can have bits of wood, bits of rock, bits of metal, bits of food, bits of clothing, bits of emotions... So "The Bits" works out nicely here: "The area of no focus, importance, or value." (I have no clue if Spakowski explains this in the books, either.) Sounds like there simply isn't a Russian word that carries exactly the same connotation. Perfectly common, I've found. Language is pretty clumsy, when we boil it down.

Ah, in Russian it's "the Right of Unxpectedness" to stay on a literal side, which I'm sure is utter nonsense in English.

It would be understandable, but the use of "unexpectedness" would be quite awkward. "Right of Surprise" would work, technically, but still sounds a little too positive. For the sake of exercise, I would say "Unseen Demand" or the "Claim of Lottery" would be about as good as I can do for now. Neither of those comes close to "Law of Surprise", though, which leaves me with a clear sense of someone grinning while sharpening a knife.

_______________


Can't merge your posts. Seems we have a buggy-poo. You'll have to take two. We won't charge for the second one. Seems like RidiculousName has stronger chi.

 

[iCake]

Plenty of drinks with the people we were with, though! (Which helped us stay warm. ) The language totally escaped me. I couldn't find any footing. (Like Arabic. Seven years in the Middle East, and the only things I have down solidly are all the bad words...)

Drinking a lot of strong stuff with their foreigner friends while also teaching them how to cuss in Russian profoundly can safely qualify as a custom or tradition even I'm sure it was a lot of good fun for all parties involved. "Party like a Russian" after all!

Not having "regional accents" would feel very, very strange... I wish I could experience that from the same perspective and level of understanding that I have with English. That would be sooo weird! For crying out loud, if you travel 30 minutes on foot in any direction in London, the accents change completely.

There are still regional accents as I noted, it's just there aren't many and they're certainly not a matter of a 30 minutes walk, more like a few hours by plane. People in different cities, even neigboring ones still might speak a little differently, but that's so subtle you can hardly call it accent. From where I stand having a wild pool of accents is so weird to me, but at the same time fascinating. It surely does seem to be distracting though, sometimes it takes me a good 10 minutes or so to adopt to some English accents. I can't claim my English is anything special or good, but I also had some native English speakers confirm that they sometimes have to attune their ear to make out some accents.

I wonder how it would read to Russians if someone were to put the Irish accent on Russian speech? Maybe they tried it and it just didn't work. (Can't imagine how they handle the Asian languages...)

That's hard to tell, most Russians don't often experience different accents so it might get really confusing to make things out for some of them, not to mention that English in any accent spoken sounds just too foreign to us Russians, alien even and can feel really unpleasant because of that. Then all those issues can impede enjoyment from voice acting, put a thick curtain over that talent or even outright ruin it. I guess it'd be better to just include some natural Russian accents ih the game, just like the Witcher 2 did with Kaedweni and I'll say it time and time again it was awesome! The pool of accents is limited, sure, but it's not that shallow

Alright...the English equivalent here would be "rubbish", "garbage", or "junk"...

Too bad my example didn't pass the test. Just when I thought I might have started to develop some "intuitive" understanding of the language. Wishful thinking, I know

"Bits" in English doesn't really associate itself with any particular material. Rather, small, disconnected pieces of a larger whole are universally called "bits". I can have bits of wood, bits of rock, bits of metal, bits of food, bits of clothing, bits of emotions... So "The Bits" works out nicely here: "The area of no focus, importance, or value." (I have no clue if Spakowski explains this in the books, either.) Sounds like there simply isn't a Russian word that carries exactly the same connotation.

Yeah, that's what I meant by saying that "bits" is such a broad term. BTW, I think I've finally come up with at least servicable Russian word for the district. It's обмылки, this literally means that tiny litle now useless piece of soap that's too small to hold on to comfortably and barely produce enough foam any longer, so people just put it in a trash. What's nice about it is that this exact word can be used in some set phrases, like подбирать обмылки (collect it), which means to scrap by what others trashed, food excluded, hard stuff like faulty bricks.

Language is pretty clumsy, when we boil it down.

That it is, my friend. That it is. More than 10 years of learning and what I write still contain plenty of weirdness because I just don't know better. Okay, whiny mood is gone now. No one likes too much whining.

It would be understandable, but the use of "unexpectedness" would be quite awkward. "Right of Surprise" would work, technically, but still sounds a little too positive. For the sake of exercise, I would say "Unseen Demand" or the "Claim of Lottery" would be about as good as I can do for now. Neither of those comes close to "Law of Surprise", though, which leaves me with a clear sense of someone grinning while sharpening a knife.

Yeah, I cringed when writing down "unexpectedness." Such a mouthful. Surprised it does make some sense though, not at all surprised there is a better way of conveying the idea.

 

[SigilFey]

Drinking a lot of strong stuff with their foreigner friends while also teaching them how to cuss in Russian profoundly can safely qualify as a custom or tradition even I'm sure it was a lot of good fun for all parties involved. "Party like a Russian" after all!

It was all fun and games until we stepped back outside. I looove cold weather, but it was simultaneously rainy and icy. The only thing that could have made it worse would have been some guy walking a bike that just plowed right through us, nearly knocking one of the girls down. Then, this guy came walking along with a bike...

But I kid -- we had a great time -- despite all the ice and bikes!

I can't claim my English is anything special or good, but I also had some native English speakers confirm that they sometimes have to attune their ear to make out some accents.

Absolutely. Can confirm. I had zero ability to understand the Afrikaans accent the first time I encountered it. It was actually kind of embarrassing after a while. Days passed, and when certain people spoke (in plain English!), I was still like, "I'm sorry, I didn't catch that." (The worst was a fellow teacher letting me know that we needed to do a "VEEZaroon" that afternoon. Minutes passed and he started getting so upset -- thinking I was actually ragging on him. Finally, a guy from Nigeria [who I could understand perfectly...of course...] clarified: "visa run" after school. I couldn't get it. Not even close.)

I guess it'd be better to just include some natural Russian accents ih the game, just like the Witcher 2 did with Kaedweni and I'll say it time and time again it was awesome! The pool of accents is limited, sure, but it's not that shallow

I think, honestly, that would be logical...but it would also take someone who knew which accent was associated with which culture...several that could adopt the accent naturally while still delivering a solid performance...

This is partially the reason I played TW1 entirely in Polish. While I couldn't understand anything that was being said -- the quality of the voice acting was instantly apparent over the...erm...functional English dub.

Too bad my example didn't pass the test. Just when I thought I might have started to develop some "intuitive" understanding of the language. Wishful thinking, I know

Wait 5 years and try again. Everything will be different.

BTW, I think I've finally come up with at least servicable Russian word for the district. It's обмылки, this literally means that tiny litle now useless piece of soap that's too small to hold on to comfortably and barely produce enough foam any longer, so people just put it in a trash.

I love this, and truly, I can't see it not working. "Here's our little section of the city. Like the last little shavings of cleanliness and civilization that we'll probably throw away anyhow..." That's brilliant!

 

[RageGT]

Because of the fluency and nuances of idiomatic expression throughout the entire game, I don't think the writers "translated" anything. It seems to me as if the different versions were likely written simultaneously in English and Polish at least. I'm guessing the writers simply shared ideas cooperatively, then the English writers did their own thing and the Polish writers did their own thing. (I would imagine that's true of at least the English and Polish versions.)

In general, whenever a manuscript is translated, it almost always comes with certain, seemingly "empty" expressions or syntactic oddities...and I didn't detect a single one throughout the course of TW3. Even Harry Potter contained instances of obviously altered word choice that "fell flat" (where it was clear that something had been re-written / simplified to avoid idiomatic expression that would not have read to an American audience.) Vice versa, when something is written in the "native tongue", it contains a subtle balance and natural canter that's very difficult to simulate if certain words or expressions are being "dictated" by another piece of literature.

(If it was translated -- it was translated by a pro the likes of which CDPR should give a raise to and promote to Preatorian.)

*snip*

I work in translation of some eng->pt-BR material and we do it in a group, with one translation, two revisions and one final draft. Besides proficiency in English, the hardest part is to get people with enough proficiency in our own language to avoid all the traps that a literal translation presents everywhere. I often see them falling for it in movies, books, etc. I say I am lucky my old lady was a school teacher and I love both languages enough to be extra careful with my translations, versions and adaptations. Shame I never got to work with games. I only play them in English though. If subtitles are on, they are English as well. I really hate any other language for my RPG´s after such a long time rp´ing in English. Some words just don´t fit, imho!

 

[SigilFey]

I work in translation of some eng->pt-BR material and we do it in a group, with one translation, two revisions and one final draft. Besides proficiency in English, the hardest part is to get people with enough proficiency in our own language to avoid all the traps that a literal translation presents everywhere. I often see them falling for it in movies, books, etc. I say I am lucky my old lady was a school teacher and I love both languages enough to be extra careful with my translations, versions and adaptations. Shame I never got to work with games. I only play them in English though. If subtitles are on, they are English as well. I really hate any other language for my RPG´s after such a long time rp´ing in English. Some words just don´t fit, imho!

What do you translate, if you don't mind my asking? I'm sure you can relate to this: the main reason that I praise the potential translator(s) in CDPR so highly is because:

Translation for things like practical documents, technical writing, correspondence, news, etc. is one thing. Creative expression, especially naturalistic dialogue, is a completely different level. That's sort of the difference between a GP...and a bloody neurosurgeon fully capable of performing a range of operations on a patient's brain while they're awake. For the same team to be able to both accurately translate between languages and balance the word-choice carefully enough in either language to deliver the masterful level of polish that TW3's script contains...

...their talent and skill-set is certifiably genius. (Although, as sv3672 states above, it looks like there were two different teams. That would make far more sense, as one group simply thought and wrote in Polish while a separate group did the same in English. I'm sure they may have helped each other along the way, but two teams would definitely seem more viable considering the quality of each script.)

 

[sv3672]

Although, as sv3672 states above, it looks like there were two different teams. That would make far more sense, as one group simply thought and wrote in Polish while a separate group did the same in English.

Actually, I did not mean two different complete teams of writers for Polish and English, but rather one team of writers (about 5 people for the main quests and large side quests, and a number of others for the less important content), two lead writers (Marcin Blacha for Polish and Borys Pugacz-Muraszkiewicz for English), and different localization and QA teams for each language. That is, if I understood the credits correctly.

 

[Benzenzimmern]

Generally most dialogues start as simple debug dialogue written in English by a quest designer (also based on (mostly) English quest designs, which are in the case of the main story based on a Polish story synopsis, which is then translated to English before quest designs are written), in which the important information has to be conveyed, so the quest is understandable from start to finish.
After that, proper dialogue is written and greatly extended by the writers in Polish. Once the dialogue is accepted in this first iteration, it is adapted into English. The first voice over we get is also done in English, but both English and Polish are the base for adaptations in other languages, depending on each language.

I hope that makes it clear.

 

[iCake]

Benzenzimmern

Huge, enormous thanks for your priceless input on the subject! Kudos!

 

[SigilFey]

Generally most dialogues start as simple debug dialogue written in English by a quest designer (also based on (mostly) English quest designs, which are in the case of the main story based on a Polish story synopsis, which is then translated to English before quest designs are written), in which the important information has to be conveyed, so the quest is understandable from start to finish.
After that, proper dialogue is written and greatly extended by the writers in Polish. Once the dialogue is accepted in this first iteration, it is adapted into English. The first voice over we get is also done in English, but both English and Polish are the base for adaptations in other languages, depending on each language.

I hope that makes it clear.

Is this one or two teams? (Meaning: is it the same people writing in both English and Polish for the actual dialogue scripts?)

 

[sv3672]

The second paragraph by Benzenzimmern seems to generally agree with what I wrote previously (proper dialogue is written in Polish first, then adapted to English, then voiced in English first, and for the other languages, some are translated from Polish, others from English). I did not know about the process of quest design and early stages of writing, it seems more understandable now why there is no single "original language".

If I understand the post and the credits correctly, there are no complete separate writing teams for Polish and English, but the quest design team works mainly in English.

 

[SigilFey]

The second paragraph by Benzenzimmern seems to generally agree with what I wrote previously (proper dialogue is written in Polish first, then adapted to English, then voiced in English first, and for the other languages, some are translated from Polish, others from English). I did not know about the process of quest design and early stages of writing, it seems more understandable now why there is no single "original language".
If I understand the post and the credits correctly, there are no complete separate writing teams for Polish and English, but the quest design team works mainly in English.

Well, the first draft would be pretty basic, I'm guessing. But it seems the first "artistic" pass is done in English, insofar as word-crafting and getting the dialogue in a natural / playable place (something the actors will be able to do something with). If the same team were also responsible for creating an equally polished script in Polish...man, that's talent. It's very uncommon for a single person to have that much mastery over two (or more!) languages.

 

[Benzenzimmern]

The main writing team working with quest designers on individual quests all write in Polish from the first draft to the last one. The English adaptation team is a separate team.