What makes an RPG?

[227]

There's a story that you experience on a linear track. If that overarching narrative is all you mean by "quest," then I could get on board with that because I can't think of any games that would be unnecessarily excluded. I only asked because the term almost carries an implication of sidequests and thus a relative amount of non-linearity when it comes to what you can complete and when.

 

[ReptilePZ]

No, I mean it as some sort of story that is driving the player forward.

Heck, we'd have to exclude half the jRPGs if non-linearity of any kind is introduced.

 

[227]

While jRPGs are mostly linear, a lot of them have sidequests that you can complete at your leisure, often to obtain secret items and characters. Even the ones that don't often have overworld maps where you can fight enemies to pass time without getting anything done in the main story.

Contrariwise, older Fire Emblem games didn't even have a map. Back then, they went straight from stage 1 to stage 2 and so on, with maybe a secret stage 2.5 if you fulfill certain criteria. Definitely more linear than a game where you're given the (relative) freedom to wander about.

But yeah, I agree with the definition including a general story that ties everything together.

 

[ReptilePZ]

I just want to point out a thing that makes our combined effort a bit controversial - ME2 and ME3 are not RPGs by our definition (which I tend to agree with).

Replace Inventory with Loot and they're back in.

 

[Sardukhar]

Boggle.

"Numbers + Upgrades + Character Driven + Inventory + General Story = RPG", right?

Well, Thief has all that. Borderlands 1+ 2 have all that. Batman AA and AC have those things. Deus Ex Human Revolution has those things, as does Deus Ex 1 and 2. I think..Stalker has those things? And it's sequels. Far Cry 3?

Those are not RPGs. I wasn't role-playing as Batman, I was playing with Batman. I'm not RPing as Garrett - please. It's scripted. Maaaybe DXHR is an RPG. More of an action RPG. I could be argued into DXHR.

Your definition leaves out the role-playing part of the RPG.

It's like you're describing a car as something that drives along with a wheel controlling wheels, made of metal plastic and glass, full of people, variable speeds, on concrete...

And not realising you're also describing an airplane.

You're focussing on the tools in an RPG that try to let you role-play. Not the point of the game. Batman the RPG would be quite different than AA or AC, because -you- would be Batman. You would choose his goals, his motivations, his methods, his allies and suffer the consequences of his choices.

Not driving him around some city, adding to his skills, maintaining his inventory of gadgets and walking through the scripted story that seems to be driven by Batman but really is just a limited freedom amusement park ride. With upgrades.

The tools are not the product and four walls and a roof do not make a house or a home. I think your criteria, although not without merit, are insufficient.

 

[ReptilePZ]

Thief and Far Cry don't have stats, only upgrades. Borderlands is an aRPG/shooter (stats on weapons but not on characters), the Deus Ex games are aRPGs.

Batman has no Inventory, nor stats.

 

[Sardukhar]

Thief and Far Cry don't have stats, only upgrades. Borderlands is an aRPG/shooter (stats on weapons but not on characters), the Deus Ex games are aRPGs.

Pretty sure upgrades are based on stats. My lockpicking is a base of..I don't recall. And I improve it with skill points. Seems like stats to me.

Far Cry 3 had as much stat as the Witcher 2 did. Abilities. Still no idea what Geralt's strength or dex is...

Gearbox calls Borderlands a "role playing shooter". Wikipedia says the role-playing elements are the character-building. I.e. the upgrades.

Certainly neither game is for me an RPG any more than Diablo. Again, I'm not -role-playing-. That's really kind of what differentiates role-playing games, even the crippled video game versions, from non-RPGs.

Borderlands, like Diablo, has RPG elements, of course. But nowhere near enough. Did you feel you were "role-playing" as Brick or the Siren? Did you make choices based on their personality and history differently from one playthrough to another? I didn't - I just chose between run-up-and-punch vs run-away-and-shoot.

Not role-playing.

 

[ReptilePZ]

Pretty sure upgrades are based on stats. My lockpicking is a base of..I don't recall. And I improve it with skill points. Seems like stats to me.

Far Cry 3 had as much stat as the Witcher 2 did. Abilities. Still no idea what Geralt's strength or dex is...

Gearbox calls Borderlands a "role playing shooter". Wikipedia says the role-playing elements are the character-building. I.e. the upgrades.

Certainly neither game is for me an RPG any more than Diablo. Again, I'm not -role-playing-. That's really kind of what differentiates role-playing games, even the crippled video game versions, from non-RPGs.

Borderlands, like Diablo, has RPG elements, of course. But nowhere near enough. Did you feel you were "role-playing" as Brick or the Siren? Did you make choices based on their personality and history differently from one playthrough to another? I didn't - I just chose between run-up-and-punch vs run-away-and-shoot.

Not role-playing.

Your lack of knowledge about stats in TW2 disturbs me... http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Character_attributes

You are always aware of your base stat, so you know exactly how much you're doing. In Thief, FarCry, you have no idea about your base stat. So you know you're improving something, but you don't really know exactly by how much. In Borderlands, you know your weapon stats, but not your character stats. And Upgrades are a part of RPGs, so saying that they're a role-playing element is not wrong. I am not denying that it has strong RPG elements, just that they're not as complete and detailed as they are in Diablo.

 

[Sardukhar]

Ha! Vitality and Vigor are Hit points and Mana! Those are stats...well then so is my 10 or whatever health in Thief. And Health and Endurance in many, many shooters. By stats, I mean values that mimic our human ones. Strength, Dex, Intelligence, so forth. The things that produce the Vigor, Vitality and Damage. Really, Call of Duty has Vitality, then. Which you can increase. Also running Endurance, iirc. You know, Vigor.

Like I said, I still have no idea of Geralt's stats. I don't know how strong or fast or smart or charismatic he is in any statistical way. How does his intelligence compare to Triss ( he's dumber, but we know that from in-game, not stats). Is he more charismatic than Dandelion? (No..c'mon. Dandelion).


I don't think any of your guys' definitions are "wrong", I just think they are too wide.

Here's the thing: my definitions of RPG are exclusive, not inclusive. I want to narrow it down so I'll know what I'm going to be playing. Diablo 1 and 3 were fun, but did not sate my RPG itch. I want, as some annoying forum guy here said, to be forced to pick a dialogue option that is close to what my character would say. In a perfect world, it would -be- what my character would say.

I want my character to make choices I would never do, then pay the price or reap the consequence. Then do it again. I want to choose to nail Iorveth..or let him go. I want to be amourous with Triss...or not, because my Witcher was drawing away from her, distracted by how very messy things were getting. I want let the elf fifth columnist live, because my Geralt sympathises with what she does, whereas I myself know better than to let a murderer walk away.

I myself want to let the troll live ( and do everytime) but I feel Geralt would do his job and chop the troll. I go against role-playing everytime and feel bad about it. While feeling good that I let the Troll live and helped him cope with his sad loss.

I want that depth. I want games that encourage me to make those choices and feel that way. I want role-playing games, good ones.

I don't give a damn about inventory.

That's all. THAT'S ALL I WANT.

 

[ReptilePZ]

Ha! Vitality and Vigor are Hit points and Mana! Those are stats...well then so is my 10 or whatever health in Thief. And Health and Endurance in many, many shooters. By stats, I mean values that mimic our human ones. Strength, Dex, Intelligence, so forth. The things that produce the Vigor, Vitality and Damage. Really, Call of Duty has Vitality, then. Which you can increase. Also running Endurance, iirc. You know, Vigor.

Like I said, I still have no idea of Geralt's stats. I don't know how strong or fast or smart or charismatic he is in any statistical way. How does his intelligence compare to Triss ( he's dumber, but we know that from in-game, not stats). Is he more charismatic than Dandelion? (No..c'mon. Dandelion).

You know exactly how well you can persuade, exactly how well you can hex or intimidate. You know your sign intensity, which is the basis for sign damage/effectiveness. You know exactly how much damage you're doing, or how much protection you have etc. etc. I suggest you actually boot up the game and look at how detailed the page is, the wiki entry does not do it justice. CoD has Vitality that you cannot upgrade. Same for Thief. The upgrades that you can get are for 'skills' that have no base stat that the player is made aware of.

'Upgrade X makes Y better' is not a proper, stat-based upgrade.

'Upgrade X makes skill Y that is currently Z better by W' is what we're looking for

I don't think any of your guys' definitions are "wrong", I just think they are too wide.

Here's the thing: my definitions of RPG are exclusive, not inclusive. I want to narrow it down so I'll know what I'm going to be playing. Diablo 1 and 3 were fun, but did not sate my RPG itch. I want, as some annoying forum guy here said, to be forced to pick a dialogue option that is close to what my character would say. In a perfect world, it would -be- what my character would say.

I want my character to make choices I would never do, then pay the price or reap the consequence. Then do it again. I want to choose to nail Iorveth..or let him go. I want to be amourous with Triss...or not, because my Witcher was drawing away from her, distracted by how very messy things were getting. I want let the elf fifth columnist live, because my Geralt sympathises with what she does, whereas I myself know better than to let a murderer walk away.

I myself want to let the troll live ( and do everytime) but I feel Geralt would do his job and chop the troll. I go against role-playing everytime and feel bad about it. While feeling good that I let the Troll live and helped him cope with his sad loss.

I want that depth. I want games that encourage me to make those choices and feel that way. I want role-playing games, good ones.

I don't give a damn about inventory.

That's all. THAT'S ALL I WANT.

Me and Numbers here are trying to formulate a general guide for why some games are called RPGs by the general public. Not what every single person may want in their RPG. It's not *my* definition of RPG (that I enjoy or find satisfying), but what critics and the industry define as computer RPGs.

 

[227]

I don't think any of your guys' definitions are "wrong", I just think they are too wide.

And I'd argue that your definition is too narrow because it would automatically exclude hundreds of games that had been considered RPGs up until that point. You should come up with a new term for what you consider "RPG" to mean. Seriously. Having a word to indicate lots of choices being in the game would actually be really helpful when looking for new games.

I suggest you actually boot up the game and look at how detailed the page is, the wiki entry does not do it justice.

A picture I found of the main stat screen because Sard is probably way too lazy and/or apathetic to go through all that effort:

Spoiler

 

[ReptilePZ]

That's page 1 of 3 of the Character Attributes, by the way. It contains combat stats, the other 2 pages contain other abilities (like intimidate, persuade) and Geralt's knowledge.

Some things are a bit different (this is from a preview build). Armour, for instance, is an exact value, not a percentage. And regeneration is replaced by Vigor, which is, again, an exact number.

 

[dragonbird]

Me and Numbers here are trying to formulate a general guide for why some games are called RPGs by the general public. Not what every single person may want in their RPG. It's not *my* definition of RPG (that I enjoy or find satisfying), but what critics and the industry define as computer RPGs.

OK, so what about Torchlight? I'm not sure about Diablo, but Runic describe Torchlight as an RPG, and I don't personally consider it would fit the description any more than Thief would. It has the stats, but there's no real story, no C&C, no expression of personality. So what would you consider the industry justification, if any, for calling it one?

 

[ReptilePZ]

OK, so what about Torchlight? I'm not sure about Diablo, but Runic describe Torchlight as an RPG, and I don't personally consider it would fit the description any more than Thief would. It has the stats, but there's no real story, no C&C, no expression of personality. So what would you consider the industry justification, if any, for calling it one?

Stats + Upgrades + Quest + Inventory + Controlling a single character/small group of characters

Torchlight is a Diablo clone. Which makes it a hack&slash RPG.

 

[Sardukhar]

I don't mind excluding hundreds of games - are you role-playing? DO YOU FEEL YOU ARE PLAYING A ROLE? If not, then no, it is not an RPG.

Those aren't stats any more than http://callofduty.wikia.com/wiki/Create-A-Class are stats.

You'll note you can select equipment and choose passive abilities that increase endurance or hitpoints. You know, Vigor and Vitality. You can absolutely upgrade your Vitality in CoD.

So Call of Duty has character stats, too. Lots of other games include Health and Endurance - and then add things in-game to them.

http://ca.ign.com/wikis/thief/Focus_Upgrades Thief does let you upgrade a crap-ton of things. It doesn't say "+2%", but that seems like a pretty narrow exclusion. Neither does Borderlands: http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/Skill but you call it an RPG.

This thread is actually about "your" RPG. Not the general public's idea of RPG. Check the OP.

Numbers and you are Off Topic! That's Very Bad!

I'm not even sure why you'd try for a definition of some illusory "general public" idea of an RPG. That's way too contentious. You're literally trying to define something for someone else. Lots of someone else's.

Say what you think an RPG is and why it's different from a non-RPG, maybe. I think that's the question Dragon asked. Don't make me go look, though.

Oh, yeah, i was going to say, "what do you mean, you know exactly how well you can persuade, you know how well you can hex or intimidate" as Geralt? Where are the stats for that? What does he check? Does he make a Cool roll? Empathy? Intelligence? Tech? What? No, really, I would like to know what Geralt's stats are. His actual stats, not the vague silliness in the game. I wonder if anyone has ever statted him in CP2020...

 

[Garrison72]

And I'd argue that your definition is too narrow because it would automatically exclude hundreds of games that had been considered RPGs up until that point. You should come up with a new term for what you consider "RPG" to mean. Seriously. Having a word to indicate lots of choices being in the game would actually be really helpful when looking for new games.


A picture I found of the main stat screen because Sard is probably way too lazy and/or apathetic to go through all that effort:

Spoiler

To be fair, I wouldn't blame anyone for ignoring such a jumbled up crap presentation of character stats. Just had to say that. Carry on.

 

[dragonbird]

To be fair, I wouldn't blame anyone for ignoring such a jumbled up crap presentation of character stats. Just had to say that. Carry on.

I can honestly say that the only times I've EVER looked at the stats page in TW2 is when it's come up in the forums. Not once while playing.

 

[ReptilePZ]

I don't mind excluding hundreds of games - are you role-playing? DO YOU FEEL YOU ARE PLAYING A ROLE? If not, then no, it is not an RPG.

Those aren't stats any more than http://callofduty.wikia.com/wiki/Create-A-Class are stats.

You'll note you can select equipment and choose passive abilities that increase endurance or hitpoints. You know, Vigor and Vitality. You can absolutely upgrade your Vitality in CoD.

So Call of Duty has character stats, too. Lots of other games include Health and Endurance - and then add things in-game to them.

All I see are upgrades, not stats.

http://ca.ign.com/wikis/thief/Focus_Upgrades Thief does let you upgrade a crap-ton of things. It doesn't say "+2%", but that seems like a pretty narrow exclusion. Neither does Borderlands: http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/Skill but you call it an RPG.

Even if it had a +2%, +2% to what? +2% to 1 is not much, +2% to 1 000 000 is a lot more. No base stat.

Same for Borderlands. I never said it was an RPG, and if you look at my posts, the reason I've given as to why it's not an first-person RPG but an RPG/FPS is precisely that there are no base stats given, which in turn makes the + x% upgrades rather vague. (I've played Borderlands and it does have some skills that have +x% on them)

This thread is actually about "your" RPG. Not the general public's idea of RPG. Check the OP.

Numbers and you are Off Topic! That's Very Bad!

I'm not even sure why you'd try for a definition of some illusory "general public" idea of an RPG. That's way too contentious. You're literally trying to define something for someone else. Lots of someone else's.

Say what you think an RPG is and why it's different from a non-RPG, maybe. I think that's the question Dragon asked. Don't make me go look, though.

From the OP, "A lot of developers define games as "RPG". In some cases, especially with the aRPG, people disagree with the tag."

Her question is: "What do you consider the essential features that a videogame needs in order to be called an RPG? Examples? What isn't essential but its presence strengthens the role-play element?"

These are the essential features that I think need to be present for an RPG to be called such (based on games that are called RPGs). I am answering the first/second question. You are answering the third one

 

[Sardukhar]

All I see are upgrades, not stats.

Well, I can get you the base values for CoD if you'd like, health and endurance. They are there, you know. Quick google and..100. Hardcore, 30. Old School, no regeneration, Health 200. There you go, base stats.

+2% to what? +2% to 1 is not much, +2% to 1 000 000 is a lot more.

It's +2% either way. It's what it is compared to that matters the most. WoW, the MMO I play occasionally, has been forced to implement stat squish because they kept adding to the numbers but trying to keep the challenge ratio the same. So +2% to damage is still +2% to damage..even if you now do 30k damage and the enemy has 400k. Good example of how stats are also highly misleading.

But +2% means what it means - 1 part in 50. Of whatever. Context is the important part, not the initial stat value.

From the OP, "A lot of developers define games as "RPG". In some cases, especially with the aRPG, people disagree with the tag."

Her question is: "What do you consider the essential features that a videogame needs in order to be called an RPG? Examples? What isn't essential but its presence strengthens the role-play element?"

These are the essential features that I think need to be present for an RPG to be called such (based on games that are called RPGs). I am answering the first/second question. You are answering the third one

I've provided my answer, for myself, again and again and it's pretty clear. You have to be pretending to be someone else and have opportunities, clear, plentiful and as part of the game design, to do so. If not, it's not role-playing. And I've used lots of examples. Vampre Bloodlines, Fallout, Witcher.

If you are saying what you consider an RPG, great! If you're saying what everyone else considers an RPG, that seems inherently flawed and prey to lots of assumptions.

I do think it's significant that we agree Witcher 1 and 2 are great RPGs but many, (most? Uh oh now I'm doing it), of us don't really care about Geralt's statistics. Or in the case of statistics that, you know, describe him from a start point relative to Strength or Charisma, have any idea at all what they are.

How important then are these stats and upgrades?

 

[227]

Some things are a bit different (this is from a preview build). Armour, for instance, is an exact value, not a percentage. And regeneration is replaced by Vigor, which is, again, an exact number.

That's my bad. It's been years since I played and it looked similar. Here's one of the final screen:

Spoiler

Might load slowly because XOMF seems to be hiccuping right now.

Oh, yeah, i was going to say, "what do you mean, you know exactly how well you can persuade, you know how well you can hex or intimidate" as Geralt? Where are the stats for that? What does he check? Does he make a Cool roll? Empathy? Intelligence? Tech? What?

There's an Axii hex stat (on one of the other stat pages, as memory serves) that goes up whenever you successfully use Axii in conversation. Have you ever successfully used an Axii hex against Sile in dialogue? It nets you a little dialogue and is only possible if you leveled up the stat before trying.

EDIT: Pretty sure there's one for intimidation, too. Again, it's been years, but I'm confident that it's there.

EDIT2: Okay, it's the "persuasion" skill that you use against Sile, not Axii (though you use the Axii in much the same way):

Spoiler

I can honestly say that the only times I've EVER looked at the stats page in TW2 is when it's come up in the forums. Not once while playing.

That's because the game is easy enough to play as an action game. When I played through the game without leveling up, however, those stats became hugely important, especially at the end for the dragon fight where figuring out my resistance to fire was crucial to passing.