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What makes an RPG?

+

What makes an RPG?

  • Ability to express personality

    Votes: 28 60.9%
  • Overarching mission/quest

    Votes: 19 41.3%
  • Choice and Consequences

    Votes: 34 73.9%
  • Character progression from weak to strong

    Votes: 20 43.5%
  • The use of statistics for abilities, skills, etc

    Votes: 24 52.2%
  • A story

    Votes: 27 58.7%
  • Relationships between characters

    Votes: 17 37.0%
  • Freedom to do what you want

    Votes: 21 45.7%
  • Inventory/Loot

    Votes: 20 43.5%
  • I don't care, just don't kill a puppy

    Votes: 2 4.3%

  • Total voters
    46
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Sardukhar

Sardukhar

Moderator
#101
Apr 5, 2014
227 said:
There's an Axii hex stat (on one of the other stat pages, as memory serves) that goes up whenever you successfully use Axii in conversation. Have you ever successfully used an Axii hex against Sile in dialogue? It nets you a little dialogue and is only possible if you leveled up the stat before trying.


That's because the game is easy enough to play as an action game. When I played through the game without leveling up, however, those stats became hugely important, especially at the end for the dragon fight where figuring out my resistance to fire was crucial to passing.
Click to expand...
I love using axii in dialogue. I'd level is just for that. No idea what my base stat for it is though, or how it's factored. Don't know if it's based on Geralt's charisma or cool or wisdom or what. It's pretty much Force Persuade to me and good to go. The social augment in DXHR was great for that, too.

I found the game less than easy on Dark mode, with levelling up. I don't think at ALL that ignoring the stats page meant that Dragon or I or Slim were playing it just as an action game. Pretty sure I was roleplaying. It's not like Geralt could see his own stats. Arguably it's more role-playey (heh) to not know your stats.

Interesting side story: I've played in a game where the GM didn't tell us the world setting, the skills, classes or much of anything. We had character descriptions and thought we were living in the modern world. Boy were we wrong. Great game, though.
 
227

227

Forum veteran
#102
Apr 5, 2014
Figures you'd quote the bit that I edited. Twice. Sigh.

Sardukhar said:
I love using axii in dialogue. I'd level is just for that. No idea what my base stat for it is though, or how it's factored. Don't know if it's based on Geralt's charisma or cool or wisdom or what. It's pretty much Force Persuade to me and good to go.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure that you have opportunities to use your intimidate, persuasion, and Axii hex skills early on with near-guaranteed success, and as memory serves, each usage raises the number:


... With later attempts failing if your skill hasn't been built up high enough. I don't remember exactly how it's factored (like if you save and reload, trying an Axii hex 15 times with the same skill level, I'm not sure if you'll get the same result each time or if there's an element of chance), but overall it's a pretty simple number-based system.

And Witcher 2 was easy even on Dark once you learned to abuse bombs and traps. I even managed to kill the Operator dude using nothing but snares, which was hilarious.

EDIT YET AGAIN:

 
Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
P

Poet_and_Gentleman.598

Rookie
#103
Apr 5, 2014
By this board's definition, Final Fantasies aren,t RPGs.
 
ReptilePZ

ReptilePZ

Wordrunner
#104
Apr 5, 2014
Sardukhar said:
Well, I can get you the base values for CoD if you'd like, health and endurance. They are there, you know. Quick google and..100. Hardcore, 30. Old School, no regeneration, Health 200. There you go, base stats.
Click to expand...
Not even gonna argue with that, since there's an easier thing I can critisize about CoD. Stats only apply to MP. MP lacks a story pushing the player, i.e. PvP alone is not enough. Another thing - the game lacks loot or Inventory.




Sardukhar said:
It's +2% either way. It's what it is compared to that matters the most. WoW, the MMO I play occasionally, has been forced to implement stat squish because they kept adding to the numbers but trying to keep the challenge ratio the same. So +2% to damage is still +2% to damage..even if you now do 30k damage and the enemy has 400k. Good example of how stats are also highly misleading.

But +2% means what it means - 1 part in 50. Of whatever. Context is the important part, not the initial stat value.
Click to expand...
+2% to your skill that you've specced in is different than +2% to your dump stat, so I disagree. The initial stat value is extremely important. Furthermore, you were initially trying to fit the game in the Stat + upgrade + etc. system. You admit that it lacks clearly defined base stats, so it doesn't fit.





Sardukhar said:
I've provided my answer, for myself, again and again and it's pretty clear. You have to be pretending to be someone else and have opportunities, clear, plentiful and as part of the game design, to do so. If not, it's not role-playing. And I've used lots of examples. Vampre Bloodlines, Fallout, Witcher.

If you are saying what you consider an RPG, great! If you're saying what everyone else considers an RPG, that seems inherently flawed and prey to lots of assumptions.
Click to expand...
I think the general idea of what an RPG is is there for a reason and I respect it. Personally, I cannot change it, so I must acknowledge it. Genres are there to introduce some order. When you play a game, you can ignore the story, you can skip the cutscenes, press Space to auto pick a choice in dialogue. But you can never skip the gameplay. So it's the gameplay that determines those genres, not role-playing or C&C. So, ultimately, I have to agree with the general opinion of what an RPG is.

Sardukhar said:
I do think it's significant that we agree Witcher 1 and 2 are great RPGs but many, (most? Uh oh now I'm doing it), of us don't really care about Geralt's statistics. Or in the case of statistics that, you know, describe him from a start point relative to Strength or Charisma, have any idea at all what they are.

How important then are these stats and upgrades?
Click to expand...
To me personally, the stats and upgrades are unimportant. They do not add to my enjoyment of the game. They don't take away from it either. I am not picky in terms of what genre of game I play (I like playing MP shooters as much as I enjoy playing a strategy game or a turn-based RPG). But they are important to many (most?) others, since all computer RPGs feature them, but only a few have dialogue trees or a worthwhile story.

P.S. Doing some work, so distracted and it's forced me to stay awake for more than 24 hours now, so please excuse any incoherent thoughts I might express.
 
Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
D

dragonbird

Ex-moderator
#105
Apr 5, 2014
poet_and_gentleman said:
By this board's definition, Final Fantasies aren,t RPGs.
Click to expand...
There is no board definition. See my OP :)
 
ReptilePZ

ReptilePZ

Wordrunner
#106
Apr 5, 2014
poet_and_gentleman said:
By this board's definition, Final Fantasies aren,t RPGs.
Click to expand...
If you're referring to the, quite obviously, flawless 'Stats + Upgrades + Controlling Single Char/Small Group + Inventory/Loot + Plot that drives the player' system, then I beg to differ.

FF has stats, upgrades and inventory/loot:





It most definitely has a plot that is determining what the player does in the relevant mode. And you control a small group of characters.
 
Garrison72

Garrison72

Mentor
#107
Apr 5, 2014
ReptilePZ said:
Stats + Upgrades + Quest + Inventory + Controlling a single character/small group of characters

Torchlight is a Diablo clone. Which makes it a hack&slash RPG.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Except, the industry also calls DMC and Bayonetta hack and slash. It also calls Siberia point and click...but isn't Torchlight technically point and click? Like, that's all you do....

For precise definitions, I don't heed industry descriptions, because gamers are more thoughtful on the matter. Not disagreeing with you, just thought I'd throw this out there.
 
ReptilePZ

ReptilePZ

Wordrunner
#108
Apr 5, 2014
slimgrin said:
Agreed. Except, the industry also calls DMC and Bayonetta hack and slash. It also calls Siberia point and click...but isn't Torchlight technically point and click? Like, that's all you do....

For precise definitions, I don't heed industry descriptions, because gamers are more thoughtful on the matter. Not disagreeing with you, just thought I'd throw this out there.
Click to expand...
DMC and Bayonetta are spectacle fighters.

If you're looking at wikipedia it's a hybrid action adventure/hack & slash - which some people refer to as spectacle fighters. So not pure hack & slash. Like Borderlands is a FPS/RPG.

P.S. First 24 hours were alright, gets harder now that the sun has come up for the second time in my day...
 
Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
Sardukhar

Sardukhar

Moderator
#109
Apr 5, 2014
ReptilePZ said:
DMC and Bayonetta are spectacle fighters.

If you're looking at wikipedia it's a hybrid action adventure/hack & slash - which some people refer to as spectacle fighters. So not pure hack & slash. Like Borderlands is a FPS/RPG.

P.S. First 24 hours were alright, gets harder now that the sun has come up for the second time in my day...
Click to expand...
You're gonna get brain damage. Look for the purple/blue glows in the corner of your eyes. I called them the "Smurfs". Get them around....40+ hours awake I think.

Okay, explain to me why the definition of an RPG as being something that lets you, and encourages you to, role-play, isn't good enough? Why must we clutter it up with all this periphery? Stats, upgrades, inventory...aren't these just the tools that help you pretend? Surely there must be a difference between X-Com and the WItcher other than...one has less characters?
 
227

227

Forum veteran
#110
Apr 5, 2014
Sardukhar said:
Surely there must be a difference between X-Com and the WItcher other than...one has less characters?
Click to expand...
X-Com is a "tactical" (also known as strategy) RPG, so there's already a distinction between the two.
 
ReptilePZ

ReptilePZ

Wordrunner
#111
Apr 5, 2014
Sardukhar said:
You're gonna get brain damage. Look for the purple/blue glows in the corner of your eyes. I called them the "Smurfs". Get them around....40+ hours awake I think.
Click to expand...
I think I've gotten to 36, not to 40 though, so have not had the pleasure of meeting the Smurfs. I'll make sure to tell them you said 'hi' if I see them, though.

Sardukhar said:
Okay, explain to me why the definition of an RPG as being something that lets you, and encourages you to, role-play, isn't good enough? Why must we clutter it up with all this periphery? Stats, upgrades, inventory...aren't these just the tools that help you pretend? Surely there must be a difference between X-Com and the WItcher other than...one has less characters?
Click to expand...
Look, I think RPG is a stupid name, they should not have used it as it doesn't accurately describe what the genre actually stands for.

As for comparing X-Com to The Witcher, the difference between them is the same as the difference between X-Com and Icewind Dale. And it has nothing to do with story, C&C, or actual RP-ing, as IWD lacks those.

@227 The hell are you talking about, x-com's a turn-based strategy game.
 
Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
Sardukhar

Sardukhar

Moderator
#112
Apr 5, 2014
227 said:
X-Com is a "tactical" (also known as strategy) RPG, so there's already a distinction between the two.
Click to expand...
....because someone calls it a "tactical RPG" it is an RPG of any kind? Why? How are you role-playing? If I give a car stats and upgrades, can I call it a "racing" RPG? Do we just append RPG to whatever has RPG-like elements? Is this like calling "white chocolate" chocolate of any kind ( it's not)?

Why is X-Com not merely a tactical turn-based strategy game..and that's enough? All those terms are accurate, after all.

How is it role-playing in X-Com? What part is you pretending to be someone else?

Edit: to anyone trying to follow all this, it's okay if you skip ahead. We're all tired here. Well, Reptile -really- is, I fairly am and 303...who knows. His meatspace body needs caffeine maybe?

991, are you going to play a Netrunner on release?
 
Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
ReptilePZ

ReptilePZ

Wordrunner
#113
Apr 5, 2014
Xcom isn't even an RPG, screw you guys...
 
Sardukhar

Sardukhar

Moderator
#114
Apr 5, 2014
ReptilePZ said:
Xcom isn't even an RPG, screw you guys...
Click to expand...
I've lost all track of what is and isn't an RPG now. I'm clinging to my minimalist definition with an iron grip as the seas of rpg-like games wash about me.

So lost....curse you Dragon. Curse you.
 
Garrison72

Garrison72

Mentor
#115
Apr 5, 2014
ReptilePZ said:
Xcom isn't even an RPG, screw you guys...
Click to expand...
Go to bed. Me and the Smurfs will handle this.
 
ReptilePZ

ReptilePZ

Wordrunner
#116
Apr 5, 2014
slimgrin said:
Go to bed. Me and the Smurfs will handle this.
Click to expand...
One does not simply go to bed at 9 AM. Plus, I have some stuff that needs finishing.
 
227

227

Forum veteran
#117
Apr 5, 2014
ReptilePZ said:
@227 The hell are you talking about, x-com's a turn-based strategy game.
Click to expand...
I've admittedly only played Enemy Unknown, but why is it not a sRPG? It has an overarching story, an inventory (you can carry grenades, medikits, and other items into battle and gain items that you sell for money), stats, and upgrades.
 
ReptilePZ

ReptilePZ

Wordrunner
#118
Apr 5, 2014
227 said:
I've admittedly only played Enemy Unknown, but why is it not a sRPG? It has an overarching story, an inventory (you can carry grenades, medikits, and other items into battle and gain items that you sell for money), stats, and upgrades.
Click to expand...
First off, that's not an inventory. That's equippable gear (almost every game has that). 'Gaining items' is their version of gathering resources in other strategy games. Secondly, there are no character stats. Finally, it's a turn-based strategy game...
 
Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
227

227

Forum veteran
#119
Apr 5, 2014
ReptilePZ said:
First off, that's not an inventory. That's equippable gear (every game has those). Secondly, there are no character stats. Finally, it's a turn-based strategy game...
Click to expand...
You don't equip grenades or medikits, though, and there are stats, though not many:



Or are those conferred by armor and stuff? I thought there were more stats, actually, so I'll concede that it barely has RPG elements, if at all. Sullenark was right—I need caffeine. What's creepy is that I came to that conclusion shortly before he posted that. I think he might be stalking me.
 
ReptilePZ

ReptilePZ

Wordrunner
#120
Apr 5, 2014
227 said:
You don't equip grenades or medikits, though
Click to expand...
Same as having 'nades and medkits in an FPS, not an inventory. That's the bare minimum of what a character equipment screen would be like in an RPG, not the inventory.

227 said:
and there are stats, though not many:



Or are those conferred by armor and stuff? I thought there were more stats, actually, so I'll concede that it barely has RPG elements, if at all. Sullenark was right—I need caffeine. What's creepy is that I came to that conclusion shortly before he posted that. I think he might be stalking me.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's only for armour. None of the upgrades affect them, they just give them extra abilities. It maybe could have passed as a hybrid Strategy/RPG if it weren't for the lack of Inventory management and if it had more focus stats.
 
Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
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