What makes an RPG?

[arkblazer]

OK, so I threatened in another thread to start this, and since you're all such civilised people, and as I may be blinking in and out of existence for the next few weeks which means Sard may need to moderate (giggle) if you start fighting, here goes.

A lot of developers define games as "RPG". In some cases, especially with the aRPG, people disagree with the tag.

What do you consider the essential features that a videogame needs in order to be called an RPG? Examples? What isn't essential but its presence strengthens the role-play element?

So... me first, Because.

Essentials:

1. My character must have a personality, and I must be able to determine it to a certain extent. There can be boundaries - it's OK if the game only gives me limited choices, stops me from (for example) killing everyone I see, but I have to have some impact on what kind of person my character is.

2. My character must have a motivation which goes beyond "Kill the enemy and loot" or "Get from A to B without dying". So it needs a story, a mission, a main quest. The motivation may change as the game progresses, but it must always be present.

3. There must be choice and consequences that go beyond "Choose the right weapon/upgrade or die". These choices don't need to change the world, and there don't need to be a lot of them, but they need to exist.

Examples. These are all defined by some at least as aRPG.
The Witcher 2 - definitely, it meets all the criteria.
Deus Ex HR - Yes, but only just, because Choice & Consequence isn't strong (and I disregard the ending, which I see as a player judgement on the world, not a choice with consequences)
Dishonored - Right on the edge, because Corvo remains a cipher, and you only really get the one personality/C&C point, the decision on whether or not to make him a killing machine.
Bioshock Infinite - No, because even though Booker has a strong personality, you get no opportunity to tune it, and there's no C&C. The only criterion matched is the existence of a strong story.
Torchlight - No, he/she just kills and loots.

Nice to have but not essential:
Character Customisation at the start of the game: It helps, but a strong pre-defined character should allow effective role-play without this.
Freedom to do what you want: Story is more important, so there need to be boundaries, but a good game will allow more freedom of expression before hitting those boundaries.

Oh wow, i cant believe this discussion kept going over here. I kinda left early on because it wasn't going anywhere, but i kind of want to go back through memory lane.

Again i dont think there is one defining element to an rpg. but a series of elements that a game must have as a majority of, but not exclusively, to be considered an RPG.

those three elements you said there are not enough. Games Like gears of war and Specs ops: the line Have all 3 elements, while there are a good number of RPGS that lack element 1 and 3.

 

[227]

RePZ and I already won this thread. You're all wasting your time. Perfection cannot be improved.

 

[Sardukhar]

Again i dont think there is one defining element to an rpg. but a series of elements that a game must have as a majority of, but not exclusively, to be considered an RPG.

.

I think this is an excellent point. What those points are, of course, people differ on, and how important some are than others, but I agree that certain elements must be present and that their strength is very determinative. Certain things make Bloodlines, Torment, fallout 1 and 2 classics.

 

[Suhiira]

I'm unfortunately not the slightest bit surprised that "The use of statistics for abilities, skills, etc." is doing poorly in the poll.

 

[arkblazer]

RePZ and I already won this thread. You're all wasting your time. Perfection cannot be improved.

And what flawless explanation would that be? im not in the mood to search through 19 pages...

And i would disagree that stat development is the main factor. then any Game that you level up or even games like GTA: san andreas and GTAV would be RPG's.

Personally i would say its all the factors of the Poll along with NPC interaction and hubs (I.E. towns) are what would constitue an rpg. it doesnt have to follow all of them, but atleast a good portion of them to be viewed by some as RPGs. but mainly i think its subjective.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I'm unfortunately not the slightest bit surprised that "The use of statistics for abilities, skills, etc." is doing poorly in the poll.

Sign of times. Every possible action romp with a a story, inventory and a hint of an ability progression (all the way down to plasmids in Bioshock :blink: ) is considered an RPG these days. The ship is sinking, man; and has bee for some time already.

 

[227]

And what flawless explanation would that be? im not in the mood to search through 19 pages...

You really should read the whole thread. We started using big words and everything. I even said "contrariwise."

We—barring grumpy old holdouts like Shingaling and Wisdom—agreed that the combination of overarching mission/quest, character progression from weak to strong, the use of statistics, and inventory/loot were shared traits by games referring to themselves as RPGs. It may not be a definition everyone likes, and RPGs are typically made better because of the presence of other elements like C&C, but it's a definition that fits the games identifying themselves as RPGs without leaving out any subgenres.

 

[arkblazer]

Interesting, wouldnt say that i agree completely but interesting. but again GTA has all 4 elements is that an RPG then?

Anyway You know what game has all those 4 elements to some degree? The zelda franchise.

You know who can suck it? everyone that disagreed with me

 

[Suhiira]

Sign of times. Every possible action romp with a a story, inventory and a hint of an ability progression (all the way down to plasmids in Bioshock :blink: ) is considered an RPG these days. The ship is sinking, man; and has bee for some time already.

Maybe I'll just go down with the ship.

 

[Suhiira]

You know who can suck it? everyone that disagreed with me

We try to argue our differing views without resorting to juvenile behavior.

 

[227]

Interesting, wouldnt say that i agree completely but interesting. but again GTA has all 4 elements is that an RPG then?

The last GTA I played was Vice City so it's hard for me to say, but I don't remember any meaningful stats or an actual inventory in any of the GTA games I've played. Then again, it's been a long, long, long time.

Anyway You know what game has all those 4 elements to some degree? The zelda franchise.

Again, no stats. Stats have to play a fairly significant role beyond being there behind the scenes, so maybe "actionable stats" would be a better way of putting it. Zelda's items don't really count as loot, either, though many games in the series fit the other two criteria. That said, the Oracle games come close because they do have loot in the form of rings, but the upgrades are always "twice as strong, twice as fast," and that kind of thing. There's no numerical starting point for the increases, so the changes are relative to the numbers happening behind the scenes instead of acting upon actual stats. Thus, not RPGs.

We try to argue our differing views without resorting to juvenile behavior.

Yeah. People who engage in such behavior are total dorkwads.

 

[arkblazer]

We try to argue our differing views without resorting to juvenile behavior.

I was joking that's why i had a ''

The last GTA I played was Vice City so it's hard for me to say, but I don't remember any meaningful stats or an actual inventory in any of the GTA games I've played. Then again, it's been a long, long, long time.


Again, no stats. Stats have to play a fairly significant role beyond being there behind the scenes, so maybe "actionable stats" would be a better way of putting it. Zelda's items don't really count as loot, either, though many games in the series fit the other two criteria. That said, the Oracle games come close because they do have loot in the form of rings, but the upgrades are always "twice as strong, twice as fast," and that kind of thing. There's no numerical starting point for the increases, so the changes are relative to the numbers happening behind the scenes instead of acting upon actual stats. Thus, not RPGs.


Yeah. People who engage in such behavior are total dorkwads.

Since san andreas there have ben stats like stamina , driving , accuracy and the lot that are supposed to affect effectiveness. guns count as inventory furthermore it has been added with clothes, armor , foods and snacks, etc.

Hearts count as stats. they increased your life , they are similar to HP. HP is a stat.

just because it has few doesnt mean that it doesnt count. skirym only had 3 stats... is skyrim not an RPG?

and ofcourse zelda has loot. you saying bombs and potions arent loot?

 

[227]

Hearts count as stats. they increased your life , they are similar to HP. HP is a stat.

Only in the vaguest sense possible. You can lose as little as a fourth of a heart from damage in some of the Zelda games, so is the number four times as many hearts as you have? What about the games where half a heart is the most you can lose at a time? I'd argue that it's not well enough defined to count as an actual stat, and that even if it did, that games' statistics have to be deeper than a single stat to qualify as a stat-based game.

just because it has few doesnt mean that it doesnt count. skirym only had 3 stats... is skyrim not an RPG?

Spoiler

It had a lot of numbers like that despite being more streamlined than earlier entries in the series.

and ofcourse zelda has loot. you saying bombs and potions arent loot?

That's exactly what I'm saying. They're unique items picked up as part of the story that have their quantities refilled, not unique items that you can pick up from enemies. It's the same reason ammo clips you pick up in shooters don't count as loot—you're not actually gaining anything new so much as replenishing the supply of something you already have.

 

[Sardukhar]

We try to argue our differing views without resorting to juvenile behavior.

We..WE DO?!

Man. Why does NO ONE tell me these things.

@arkblazer

Also, 222 and Rep decided their definition applied - but it doesn't. There are lots of exceptions. Zelda, as you mention.

Don't let 223 bully you, especially when he's flagrantly incorrect.

If he was flagrantly correct, well, then let him bully you.

I ask him to use the banana whip. it feels like silk and cream cheese on my skin.

 

[ReptilePZ]

Zelda's not an exception to our glorious system, Sard. You never level up in that game => no upgrades to your stats. And no, collecting a heart is not the same as levelling up. You level up by gaining XP (which doesn't even exist in Zelda), not by finding collectables. Generally speaking, you're not an RPG if you don't have an XP system. We should add that just to make it perfectly clear how those upgrades are acquired, 227.

Carry on.

 

[Sardukhar]

Well. There are RPGs without experience points.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Paranoia ( We should -really- play this). aranoia is not a humorous roleplaying game about a distinctly Orwellian, dystopian future and living in a sealed city run by a psychotic computer. On the contrary, Alpha Complex is a utopia. Friend Computer is wise and benevolent and not at all murderous. There are no communists, mutants, traitors, or secret societies. Technology is more advanced than it has ever been in the history of civilization, and research and development does not routinely involve handing out prototype weapons which will of course never let loose a nuclear explosion if dropped. There is nothing of note outside of Alpha Complex, and all its citizens are completely happy to live inside it and never leave. Happiness is mandatory. Unhappiness is treason. Treason is punishable by death.

Here is the closest you'll find to XP, ( not actually XP, as they don't let you improve your character stats or skills). They are like Fate Points in Dark Heresy, only funnier.

"Spending one perversity point allows you to add or subtract one from any dice roll, anywhere on the table. In cases where the party has split into two opposing teams (which is rare, because mostly every party member is in it for themselves), everyone around the table might spend all of their perversity points on raising and lowering a single dice roll. This is hilarious. Not thinking this is hilarious is treason. Treason is punishable by death."

Ah, joy.

Yes, we really should play this. Dibs on being the GM!

 

[ReptilePZ]

Talking about computer RPGs here, which, as we've established, have very little to do with the PnP ones apart from the general idea. You don't really have a main quest in PnP RPGs either - that's where the DM comes in. Sadly, you can't have one in video games, which is why computer RPGs will always be different than PnP ones.

 

[Suhiira]

Different yes, but that doesn't mean they can't emulate a PnP GM to an extent. And that's where optional methods of completing missions/quests and different dialog options leading to game changing consequences come in.

 

[Sardukhar]

Oh, I know, Rep, but the point I'm making is that you can have an RPG without XP. If someone makes a Paranoia CRPG, why would it have XP? It would have to be added for...no good reason?

And PnP RPGs are much more pure role-playing, of course. Since you can really get in deep. Wow, was that sexual. Anyway. Tears, real anger, sorrow, affection, hope..all of these things come out of PnP games on a fairly steady basis. The good ones, anyway.

So although the topic is videogame RPGs, these come from PnP and I think there are solid lessons to be learned there. Since you exclude things like Zelda, which many consider an RPG, I'd say your definition remains mostly yours and, well, not definitive.

 

[Suhiira]

I don't use an XP system per-say in my long running PnP campaign.
If a character successfully uses (and sometimes if they screw up creatively) a skill they earn a "skill point". When their "skill point" total on a given skill exceeds their current skill level (a percentage based system) the skill improves.
One could easily argue this is the equivalent of an XP system but you have LOTS of skills an they improve one at a time based on use there's no sudden increase to a number of skills due to "leveling up".