What needs to happen to fix Monsters

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Someone posted the stats from another thread of the qualifiers, and the stats tell quite a revealing story about MO.

When MO go first, they had a winrate of 70%, but when they go second they have a winrate of 37%. That is a MASSIVE variance, very unhealthy for the game.

It seems to me that the MO cards aren't broken, it's thrive that has become broken now that MO has gotten some quality pointslams. Before, building up thrive was difficult, but now that monsters have powerful pointslams later on it forces opponents to react quickly to Endrega Eggs, Nekkers, or Self-Eaters (although just a relict thrive), because these cards if left unanswered early on will carry away the game.

Conversely, when MO go second, they get crushed because opponents have a chance to put down removal engines onto their board or develop their board, making it impossible to get the thrive steamroll going. Without the early game thrive, reaching later sabbath becomes very difficult for MO and they lose hard.

If MO have their new cards nerfed they will go back to being trash, but if thrive is instead looked at and modified so that it's not simply go first or lose, I think the MO problems people are having will be solved. Right now, it's apparently a coin toss for MO.
I wonder what exactly do you mean by "removal engines"? Because the only thing I can think of are SY bounty cards. Is this a SY vs MO debate? There are 4 other factions out there that don't have removal engines. How is MO losing to them on red? [Hint: they don't. Rather, they win R1 on even] In short, these are tournament stats, dominated by SY and MO. They don't reflect what's happening in the real world.
 
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I wonder what exactly do you mean by "removal engines"? Because the only thing I can think of are SY bounty cards. Is this a SY vs MO debate? There are 4 other factions out there that don't have removal engines. How is MO losing to them on red? [Hint: they don't. Rather, they win R1 on even] In short, these are tournament stats, dominated by SY and MO. They don't reflect what's happening in the real world.
Precision strike doesnt have removall?

Rebuke played 3 times (with forest protector) , circle of life (some have 2, 1 or some decks has zero, but we need to count it), the leader abillity with sentinels, the leader ability with waylay from scenario and sorceres of don blathana wich a lot of times give more remove cards (ok, here is a little situational, but we need to consider her(
 
Precision strike doesnt have removall?

Rebuke played 3 times (with forest protector) , circle of life (some have 2, 1 or some decks has zero, but we need to count it), the leader abillity with sentinels, the leader ability with waylay from scenario and sorceres of don blathana wich a lot of times give more remove cards (ok, here is a little situational, but we need to consider her(
So which of those are "engines" that benefit from blue coin? Control PS decks are MUCH better on red as a rule. Including against monster. I WANT that Selfeater on the board so I can rebuke it with a ping.
 
By removal engines, I meant "board control", when MO go first 70% of opposing players lose board control and it grows wildly out of reach.

Conversely...

So which of those are "engines" that benefit from blue coin? Control PS decks are MUCH better on red as a rule. Including against monster. I WANT that Selfeater on the board so I can rebuke it with a ping.

Simple! If I go first as ST, I can play a Whisperer or some other engine that benefits from my spell casting (which they are many), so now, when the MO plays Self-Eater on second, I can nuke it quickly and generate huge value on my board.

I think what is going on, is that MO are garbage from behind, and oppressive when in front. I think a more appropriate change to Thrive would be something that scales relative to the opponent's board level. For example, thrive should stop if a thrive card grows larger than any of the opponents cards. But if the thrive card is smaller than the opponents tallest card, it should grow at 2 per thrive. This way, thrive from behind becomes quite good, but thrive when ahead in points is significantly weakened and slower, allowing opponents a chance to react.

Such a change would help MO on second, and nerf them on first. Then you would see winrates for MO go from being 70-37% (first-last winrates) to hopefully something like 55-45%. Decks that play small units would inherently nerf thrive decks, and make it so the meta isn't just about spamming the biggest numbers possible.
 
I think she who knows is a ridiculous card. To get resilience and an 8 power point card in Ciri :nova you need to not have any cards over 10 cost. She who knows you just play her in a monster deck which is already hard to deal with and you need to remove her or lock her (then hope they don't use that purify relic card) otherwise they have a 10 point (or more if they get that other relic card that gains base power) for the next round.
 
If MO have their new cards nerfed they will go back to being trash,
Go back to being trash? I went pro rank in just a few hours last season with relicts, and it was the easiest most faceroll pro rank I've ever achieved, many times I caught myself feeling bad for my opponents.

It was stupid before, it's even worse now.
 
By removal engines, I meant "board control", when MO go first 70% of opposing players lose board control and it grows wildly out of reach.

Conversely...



Simple! If I go first as ST, I can play a Whisperer or some other engine that benefits from my spell casting (which they are many), so now, when the MO plays Self-Eater on second, I can nuke it quickly and generate huge value on my board.

I think what is going on, is that MO are garbage from behind, and oppressive when in front. I think a more appropriate change to Thrive would be something that scales relative to the opponent's board level. For example, thrive should stop if a thrive card grows larger than any of the opponents cards. But if the thrive card is smaller than the opponents tallest card, it should grow at 2 per thrive. This way, thrive from behind becomes quite good, but thrive when ahead in points is significantly weakened and slower, allowing opponents a chance to react.

Such a change would help MO on second, and nerf them on first. Then you would see winrates for MO go from being 70-37% (first-last winrates) to hopefully something like 55-45%. Decks that play small units would inherently nerf thrive decks, and make it so the meta isn't just about spamming the biggest numbers possible.
Yeah, well, I went back to that Tournament page and looked through the winners bracket just for kicks and giggles. ST and MO met 8 times, ST went 1-7 vs MO, with 4 of those losses coming on Blue coin, so... I guess the Whisperer strategy didn't work for them.
 
I think she who knows is a ridiculous card. To get resilience and an 8 power point card in Ciri :nova you need to not have any cards over 10 cost. She who knows you just play her in a monster deck which is already hard to deal with and you need to remove her or lock her (then hope they don't use that purify relic card) otherwise they have a 10 point (or more if they get that other relic card that gains base power) for the next round.

I'm coming round to the idea that MO isn't broken at all, just powerful. SWK is 13 prov, so in the current state it's a potential game winner. alongside Kelly and Rience. If you have no answer and it gets put down R1, you make sure you win that round even if sacrificing a card advantage. Or banish it, not as if Heatwave ever bricks. I mean, let's face it - there's worse mechanics out there than big Monsters. Most NG decks are horrible, and seeing the incredibly dull and repetitive SY LP land time and time again is beyond insufferable.

I've played against this MO deck with a homebrew SK self-wound (Olaf, Vidkaarl, etc.) + Melusine. Their lack of removal means that kind of deck can out-score them believe it or not! As a final two cards, I've played Melusine early as possible R1 (they have NO removal and Melusine can't be locked by Dorregay, who they ALWAYS play *yawn*), then just let it build over 15+rounds to get a base strength up at 20+, damage it once, use Hym, then Restore or Bekkers Mirror. I've played for 42 points on Melusine last play. Puts Aglais to shame. Spell'a'tel if played correctly can out-point them. Traps can do a decent job, as can movement.

The main prob with MO is that it benefits - like SY - because the cards are more consistent at low provs, whereas ST, SK and NR all tend to be about set up. For a decent ST spell round, I need 3 elf cards to stay on the board at the same time. MO throws down BLAM 6 STR self eater. Miss that and BLAM it's a 9 point deploy that synergises with Mamunna effortlessly and now there's three self eaters on the board!! It's not 'fair'.
 
Yeah, well, I went back to that Tournament page and looked through the winners bracket just for kicks and giggles. ST and MO met 8 times, ST went 1-7 vs MO, with 4 of those losses coming on Blue coin, so... I guess the Whisperer strategy didn't work for them.

Even if ST has a tough time against monsters, it does not change the fact that monsters win way more on blue than not. Was the one ST win against a second player monster?
 
Hi, sorry it's a noob question.

I don't understand when i have 25 points on the first line, i can't create a copy of a bronze unit from my cemetery with mamuna. What do i do wrong? Does the 25 points from sabath needs to be from relics only? Sometimes it works., sometimes not... 🙄
 
Hi, sorry it's a noob question.

I don't understand when i have 25 points on the first line, i can't create a copy of a bronze unit from my cemetery with mamuna. What do i do wrong? Does the 25 points from sabath needs to be from relics only? Sometimes it works., sometimes not... 🙄
You do not create with Mamunna, you pull a copy from your deck. f you have no additional copies in your deck you get no additional bronze unit.
 
What needs to happen to fix Nilfgaard?
Now it's the main headache

The only one new card that must to be reworked it's Mammuna on Monster's deck. 11 provision and 1 or 12 and 3
 
The game is good and has a lot of potential but the current meta only has 3 playable decks if you want to rank up. Making the game extremely boring and unplayable. I have rarely seen a multiplayer game in such a bad state as gwent. It take cdpr too long to come up with patch updates, like how is mamuna still not nerfed? And expantions are always powercreep, making older decks completely unplayable.
 
Sabbath row-locked might be a right choice.

Sabbath requirement should only work, IF the row where cards is, has Sabbath value.

This allows for some counterplays, like filling rows, movement, removal.

Right now Sabbath is far too easy to achieve.
 
Selfeaters suck since the latest patch.
[Prove me wrong]

IMO we either need new 4-provision relicts instead of Kikimore Worker and Elder Bear, or Selfeaters need to get buffed to 5-povisions.
 
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I don't think selfeaters suck. I think it's that people are so afraid they will get out of their control that players will do anything to eliminate them on the spot. That being said, there's just more of a necessity, and a challenge, to protect them if you want them to work now is all, but that would require tech options which you may not want to run in a pure relict deck.
 
Wild hunt units is total garbage compared to ranked tier decks, need a total rework. A shame that monster faction leader theme deck is so poor.
 
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