What needs to happen to fix Monsters

[rrc]

what do you think about my proposed witch apprentice change? would kind of "fix" how easy sabbath is to achieve without changing it. combined with general nerfs to overtuned golds I think sabbath can stay as it is. it might be that people end up ditching witch apprentice but on the other hand you need relicts in this deck and the choice is limited

I really like the proposal for apprentice. IMO, Witch Apprentice along with Selfeaters are the best bronze in the game. The bronze card which can get +2 per turn even after passing and comes to board with 6 points is just too much. It should come to board at 5 points. And it being a Sabbath enabler is also a very nice idea, while other cards benefit out of Sabbath, this can help in getting it faster. But the only issue is, Mo already doesn't have problem reaching Sabbath. Most of the games I play, Sabbath is reached in the 3rd card or at the most 4th card.

How they fix this, I don't know. But Apprentice should come to board at 5 strength. These MO cards make the SK cards look weak, something I never thought would happen in Gwent. Selfeater can get HUGE point swing and it comes to board with 6 power. Compare it to Greatsword! It comes to board at 4 points and has a cap of 10 which itself was supposed to be a very good value. Selfeater should come to board at 4 strength; making it high risk and high reward.

 

[DC9V]

What if Mistress would spawn a new 1-powered Token that doesn't have Thrive, and Gerni's Sabbath would be triggered by a new tag which includes both Gerni's Fruit and the new Token? The tag could be called Breed. Alternatively, remove the Thrive from Gerni's Fruit and add a new Token called Ysgith's Fruit which does have the Thrive.

 

[Celadyl]

That isn't possible, you're suggestion would make the game more binary than ever because some decks would automatically be an auto loss against others since a counter they need may be a card in another archetype. That's already the case to some extent but if we force archetypes into a box then counter play would be severely restricted.

I didnt mean it like that. "counter" cards usually fit in every deck anyway, be it heatwave, CoC, bekkers, any 5p removal, yenvo etc., no synergy needed. what I mean is I think it's pretty sad that new archetypes rarely seem to create a new way of playing. we dont all of a sudden see decks that go all in on bounties, or salamandra before that. same with NG spies, we dont see a full spy list enter the meta. the old decks just take the best from every expansion and evolve, like we still see MO koshchey, just some cards have changed, we still see NG ball, just with blightmakers and maybe the new 12p mage, we still see foltest NR, just with some new OP 4p cards added, we still see almost the same cleaver/whoreson deck just with scoundrel and witchfinder added. I could go on for a while.
After every expansion I'm having a ton of fun for a week maximum before it's back to the old meta with 1-2 cards changed per deck. older archetypes keep falling to the wayside, like we dont see any frost MO, we just saw auberon being played until some better card came.
my criticism is I feel like every new set of cards just gets shoehorned into the existing meta decks and the cards that dont fit are basically discarded, and it leads to a super boring meta. I havent been in pro rank for like half a year because I'm just not interested in playing the same matches over and over. I have an absurd amount of games with meme decks like NR knights or failed archetypes like wild hunt and I'd love to see more support for those that dont just end up in the top tier deck and leave behind their archetypes anyway.

one reason for this, imo, is that archetypes arent differentiated enough in most factions, like you can fit foltest and dun banner in every deck, it doesnt need to have swarm or boost synergy. you can fit masquerade ball in any deck, as every functioning NG archetype is about status and thinning to some extent. you can mash up any of the best SY cards into the best deck since they all use coins.
good examples for good archetyping imo are vampires and frost, both of these are very different from MO pointslam/thrive stuff. sadly, those archetypes arent competetive enough mostly.

this is already a wall of text, I could go on for hours I guess, sorry for digressing

 

[KaynOfNosgoth]

That isn't possible, you're suggestion would make the game more binary than ever because some decks would automatically be an auto loss against others since a counter they need may be a card in another archetype. That's already the case to some extent but if we force archetypes into a box then counter play would be severely restricted.

I think what Celadyl was trying to say in the post above is more or less the same with what i said. He and i (and i'm guessing other likeminded people) are sick of seeing the same 1-2 meta mish-mash decks that each faction has over and over again and we would love to see decks that focus on specific archtypes compete with the top tier mish-mashers but those decks simply can't keep up.

Again, i'm gonna mention my idea in the hopes someone will actually say what they think about it...

New keyword similar to devotion but instead of getting a bonus for sticking to your faction you get the bonus for sticking only to your archtype.

Let's call the keyword Affiliation for the sake of argument. And let's take a useless card like Wolf Pack as an example.

It would go something like this:
Wolf Pack:
Deploy: Damage a unit by 2
Affiliation Beasts: Boost self by 2 and damage a unit by 3.

This way, an otherwise useless card can compete with top tier 7 points for 4 provision cards if it's used in decks that focus only on beasts.

You can still use it in other decks if you choose too. But if i wanna build a beasts deck then i can AND i get that extra points that i need to compete with the top tier mish-mash decks.

Obviously this was just a easy, simple to understand example to make my point. Abilities and buffs for decks that focus around specific archtypes can be as crazy as the devs want them to make them.

 

[Guest 4375874]

I really like the proposal for apprentice. IMO, Witch Apprentice along with Selfeaters are the best bronze in the game. The bronze card which can get +2 per turn even after passing and comes to board with 6 points is just too much. It should come to board at 5 points. And it being a Sabbath enabler is also a very nice idea, while other cards benefit out of Sabbath, this can help in getting it faster. But the only issue is, Mo already doesn't have problem reaching Sabbath. Most of the games I play, Sabbath is reached in the 3rd card or at the most 4th card.

How they fix this, I don't know. But Apprentice should come to board at 5 strength. These MO cards make the SK cards look weak, something I never thought would happen in Gwent. Selfeater can get HUGE point swing and it comes to board with 6 power. Compare it to Greatsword! It comes to board at 4 points and has a cap of 10 which itself was supposed to be a very good value. Selfeater should come to board at 4 strength; making it high risk and high reward.

I agree it needs a nerf but the SK comparison isn't accurate. The Greatsword synergy with the other cards is beyond anything MO can achieve currently. You're assessing the MO bronze cards as part of Sabbath but then assessing Greatsword by itself. SK has numerous ways to resurrect...very cheaply, just removing Greatsword once isn't enough by comparison to selfeater.

I doubt very much that there are SK decks currently losing to MO, SK itself is overtuned but it isn't reliant on one or two cards. Their entire deck is too consistent to the point that they can't misdraw.

I'm all for these MO cards being nerfed but it's disingenuous to pretend other factions aren't in need of balancing. SK, NG and SY to name a few. The ST spellatell cards are also right up there.

Post automatically merged: Aug 7, 2021

A sabbath is a gathering of witches, so it should strengthen cards, not weaken them.

The sabbath is Witch themed, witches are about control and manipulation so the Sabbath effect really doesn't make sense if we go with your suggestion. Relicts would have been the perfect opportunity to give MO some control. I mean Miruna was one of the most popular relicts the faction had in the past. Bleeding Effigy (while clunky) is the direction they should have gone. Graveyard manipulation would have been perfectly fitting, not just mindless Mamunna boost and more tall play.

 

[Celadyl]

The sabbath is Witch themed, witches are about control and manipulation so the Sabbath effect really doesn't make sense if we go with your suggestion. Relicts would have been the perfect opportunity to give MO some control. I mean Miruna was one of the most popular relicts the faction had in the past. Bleeding Effigy (while clunky) is the direction they should have gone. Graveyard manipulation would have been perfectly fitting, not just mindless Mamunna boost and more tall play.

necrophages are the perfect fit for graveyard manipulation I'm pretty sure we'll see more at some point. I agree sabbath is rather uncreative so far, and its probably not going to change with the last 4 cards

 

[Guest 4375874]

necrophages are the perfect fit for graveyard manipulation I'm pretty sure we'll see more at some point. I agree sabbath is rather uncreative so far, and its probably not going to change with the last 4 cards

Necrophages are consumption much like Mamunna, they feed off the dead so that makes sense but not so much control or manipulation.

Instead of Mamunna's current ability for example it could instead select a bronze card from your graveyard and transform an enemy unit into that unit. You could stop a powerful gold card but at a cost since your bronze might be taller depending on what you have in the graveyard or you cut down a tall unit's points without complete removal. Just interesting ideas, not just boost.

 

[Unkn0wn0ne]

Shabbat shalom, my friend. A sabbath is a day of rest after a week (6 days) of work.
What you are refering to would be a Black Sabbath or a Witch(es) Sabbath like the day of Walpurgis, celebrated each year at the mountain of Brocken.

My apologies, and noted.

The sabbath is Witch themed, witches are about control and manipulation so the Sabbath effect really doesn't make sense if we go with your suggestion. Relicts would have been the perfect opportunity to give MO some control. I mean Miruna was one of the most popular relicts the faction had in the past. Bleeding Effigy (while clunky) is the direction they should have gone. Graveyard manipulation would have been perfectly fitting, not just mindless Mamunna boost and more tall play.

I'm not sure I understand. What did you think my suggestion was?
I certainly wasn't saying MO needed less control.

 

[rrc]

I played MO after a long time. It should be at least 1 year but I assume it could even be 2 years since I played MO. I might have played a game or two in last two years, but I don't remember when I last played MO.

I feel really sad for player playing anything other than MO. The amount of points MO can put on the board is simply disgusting. I find facing NG-Enslave or ST-PS a little hard since they are heavy control and can manage to not allow Sabbath in R1. But even then, it is no big deal. If Sabbath can't be achieve, we can do pointslam instead of engines.

I just opened the deck builder, selected most cards from PoP expansion, searched for Relits and added Pellar+Heatwave for Defender+Foltest/Melusine and Lambert for Whisperers nonsense. Just when I am writing this post I realise that MO has an offense 5 for 5 purify which I could have used instead of pellar. That is my working knowledge of MO. And I can just breeze through the games. I faced an SK warrior deck and I won with 30+ points difference when I hadn't used my last card. This is just absolutely unacceptable amount of pointslam/engine value. That too from a super-unoptimised deck from somehow who hasn't played MO in years. If ST reached this level of brokenness, it would be put into dumpster for an year at least.

Of all the cards of MO, I find Apprentice and Selfeater the most broken cards in the game. Most of the time Self eater reaches close to 20 points and I have had a 25 poins Selfeater in R1 with a 9 point selfeater in the GY for Mamuna to consume and pull the other Selfeater. I actually feel like I am cheating in Gwent playing Mo.

In this game Selfeater has already played for 19 points. Most games, on red coin, I win on even and most of the times get 2-0 wins. Even SK was never at this level. If I am on the receiving end, I will probably take a break after every MO encounter as it is absolutely hopeless. With this much level of oppressiveness, it is not good for the game. People will lose interest in playing the game. I really wish the devs find the right balance in next patch before it goes out of control in the next patch after that with new cards.

I never had this many 2-0 wins in last many season combined when I was playing ST.

 

[KaynOfNosgoth]

If ST reached this level of brokenness, it would be put into dumpster for an year at least.

Except it is on that level. I lost games against ST that used Precision Strike and played a Simlas in the last round that pulled around 6 Waylay from the deck. The control in that deck is insane.
I've also lost matches against ST decks that used Nature's Gift because i couldn't outpoint combos like Whisperer and Seer into Orb of Insight.
They also had Hamadryad so the ammount of vitality and points they were producing each round was way too much.

As for SK i lost games against Melusine. Quite a few actually. All you need is Dagur and a Defender and you can easily outgreed that deck.

So yeah, there are definetly decks that can compete point for point with this one. Play some more, find some more combinations and stop asking for nerfs for a faction after the patch has been out for less than a week.

 

[Celadyl]

Except it is on that level. I lost games against ST that used Precision Strike and played a Simlas in the last round that pulled around 6 Waylay from the deck. The control in that deck is insane.
I've also lost matches against ST decks that used Nature's Gift because i couldn't outpoint combos like Whisperer and Seer into Orb of Insight.
They also had Hamadryad so the ammount of vitality and points they were producing each round was way too much.

As for SK i lost games against Melusine. Quite a few actually. All you need is Dagur and a Defender and you can easily outgreed that deck.

So yeah, there are definetly decks that can compete point for point with this one. Play some more, find some more combinations and stop asking for nerfs for a faction after the patch has been out for less than a week.

ST can somewhat compete with MO because MO is complete solitaire and spellatael is one of the greediest decks to ever see the light of day in gwent. as soon as the meta shifts more towards control á la SY or NG the current ST deck will have no more merit imo

 

[KaynOfNosgoth]

ST can somewhat compete with MO because MO is complete solitaire and spellatael is one of the greediest decks to ever see the light of day in gwent. as soon as the meta shifts more towards control á la SY or NG the current ST deck will have no more merit imo

The same can be said about MO.

 

[Celadyl]

The same can be said about MO.

yes but I think MO is much harder to control than current ST. ST puts multiple 3-4p bodies on the board and hope they stick for the big swing, MO just slams a ton of points each turn

 

[KaynOfNosgoth]

yes but I think MO is much harder to control than current ST. ST puts multiple 3-4p bodies on the board and hope they stick for the big swing, MO just slams a ton of points each turn

I don't agree. As far as bronze engines go MO have Selfeater and Witch Apprentice.
ST has Hamadryad (6 points right off the bat, just like Selfeater), Whisperer, Elven Seer and these 3 are only the most powerful ones that need immediate attention.
If they also add a Vernossiel's Commando or Elven Swordmasters that's already 5 engines that you have to deal with.

As far as gold engines go, MO have only Gerni. I guess you could include SWK in there but no one actually plays her because she's more or less useless.

ST has Gezras, Francesca (impossible to lock, you have to damage her or use Korathi on her), Dunca, and lately i saw Vanadain gets quite some value in certain decks.

Here i only included the cards i saw being played lately. Obviously not every deck will have all those but my point is that there are more engines that need "controlling" on ST than MO.

And if the meta shifts toward control decks i bet we'll see tons of locking NG stuff so yeah... when that happens MO will have the short stick since ST has more units with veil and more engines.

 

[Celadyl]

I don't agree. As far as bronze engines go MO have Selfeater and Witch Apprentice.
ST has Hamadryad (6 points right off the bat, just like Selfeater), Whisperer, Elven Seer and these 3 are only the most powerful ones that need immediate attention.
If they also add a Vernossiel's Commando or Elven Swordmasters that's already 5 engines that you have to deal with.

As far as gold engines go, MO have only Gerni. I guess you could include SWK in there but no one actually plays her because she's more or less useless.

ST has Gezras, Francesca (impossible to lock, you have to damage her or use Korathi on her), Dunca, and lately i saw Vanadain gets quite some value in certain decks.

Here i only included the cards i saw being played lately. Obviously not every deck will have all those but my point is that there are more engines that need "controlling" on ST than MO.

And if the meta shifts toward control decks i bet we'll see tons of locking NG stuff so yeah... when that happens MO will have the short stick since ST has more units with veil and more engines.

mate you cant compare 1 deck to an entire faction, I havent seen any gezras in spellatael at all, nobody plays hamadryad or natures gift for that matter, not even francesca is included in the up-to-date meta list. also cards like swordmaster dont need "immediate attention", its not like it generates 2 points passively every turn like witch apprentice (and its also not a good choice for spellatael). its funny you mention vernossiels commando and hamadryad in the same section btw, as they dont work together.

the spellatael that is played relies VERY heavily on elven seer (if she dies you lose a massive amount of orb points) and whisperer, who also gives explosive points when all the counter spells replay themselves (unless seer died then whisperer also loses a lot of points). scribe isnt even that important and could almost be considered removal bait. sorceress can be important but only if your other engines stick, otherwise she plays for maybe 10 if youre lucky.

in MO if your witch apprentice dies it hurts but you usually dont lose any value from other cards. if your selfeater dies it sucks but you still have overtuned golds to win the game (how in the world did you forget to mention koshchey but mention gezras for spellatael, like whut?).
MO has some supporting engines but is mostly point slam. crones, gan ceann, mamunna, rat catcheress, kiki worker etc all just play for points.
ST on the other hand has immense problems when you kill seer or whisperer or even both and will lose in probably 9/10 games.
granted, ST can somewhat circumvent this problem by preparing counters and then tutoring one of those with oneiro, call or even council. but the point still stands.

 

[KaynOfNosgoth]

mate you cant compare 1 deck to an entire faction, I havent seen any gezras in spellatael at all, nobody plays hamadryad or natures gift for that matter, not even francesca is included in the up-to-date meta list. also cards like swordmaster dont need "immediate attention", its not like it generates 2 points passively every turn like witch apprentice (and its also not a good choice for spellatael). its funny you mention vernossiels commando and hamadryad in the same section btw, as they dont work together.

Ok, a few things to mention here:
1. I already said you won't see this in all decks. I was just pointing out the difference in engines between the 2 factions and that overall ST would still have more options than MO. Not to mention Dryad's Caress which also removes a few locks if needed. MO has only 1 purifying card at most. I for example don't have a purify card in my MO deck but i do have Aguara to remove a lock for certain special ocasions.

2. I played i think around...6-7 matches against ST in comp until i got to pro and 5 of those were Precision Strike decks that focused heavily on control but the other 2 were Nature's Gift decks that had both Hamadryad and Gezras. The first one i lost because it was the first time i encountered the deck and i was caught off guard by the points it generated but i won the second time i fought that deck.
So yeah, those decks do exist and are quite good. Idk how you never saw one but ok... maybe they are not that popular?

In MO if your witch apprentice dies it hurts but you usually dont lose any value from other cards. if your selfeater dies it sucks but you still have overtuned golds to win the game (how in the world did you forget to mention koshchey but mention gezras for spellatael, like whut?).
MO has some supporting engines but is mostly point slam. crones, gan ceann, mamunna, rat catcheress, kiki worker etc all just play for points.
ST on the other hand has immense problems when you kill seer or whisperer or even both and will lose in probably 9/10 games.
granted, ST can somewhat circumvent this problem by preparing counters and then tutoring one of those with oneiro, call or even council. but the point still stands.

Actually if my selfeater gets locked before it splits that slows me down quite a bit. It's not so insignificant. But yeah witch's apprentice is not that big of a deal though it still counts in a long round.
As for Koshchey yeah i totally forgot about him my bad. I don't use him in my deck because i already fill the board so there's really no room for him that's why he sliped my mind.
But overall again, i don't think the golds are that overtuned. Except when i use caranthir and iddarran to get 3 copies of each. Then yes, that's a game breaker.

Overall i think there are pros and cons to both factions. MO has more point slam like you mentioned so control overall won't affect all of them but has very few engines and stopping those will hurt in a long round.

ST doesn't have so much point slam but has more engines and ways to purify and buff them to make them harder to remove so that compensates.

When the control meta gets here both factions will be in deep trouble that's for sure.

 

[Celadyl]

Ok, a few things to mention here:
1. I already said you won't see this in all decks. I was just pointing out the difference in engines between the 2 factions and that overall ST would still have more options than MO. Not to mention Dryad's Caress which also removes a few locks if needed. MO has only 1 purifying card at most. I for example don't have a purify card in my MO deck but i do have Aguara to remove a lock for certain special ocasions.

2. I played i think around...6-7 matches against ST in comp until i got to pro and 5 of those were Precision Strike decks that focused heavily on control but the other 2 were Nature's Gift decks that had both Hamadryad and Gezras. The first one i lost because it was the first time i encountered the deck and i was caught off guard by the points it generated but i won the second time i fought that deck.
So yeah, those decks do exist and are quite good. Idk how you never saw one but ok... maybe they are not that popular?


Actually if my selfeater gets locked before it splits that slows me down quite a bit. It's not so insignificant. But yeah witch's apprentice is not that big of a deal though it still counts in a long round.
As for Koshchey yeah i totally forgot about him my bad. I don't use him in my deck because i already fill the board so there's really no room for him that's why he sliped my mind.
But overall again, i don't think the golds are that overtuned. Except when i use caranthir and iddarran to get 3 copies of each. Then yes, that's a game breaker.

Overall i think there are pros and cons to both factions. MO has more point slam like you mentioned so control overall won't affect all of them but has very few engines and stopping those will hurt in a long round.

ST doesn't have so much point slam but has more engines and ways to purify and buff them to make them harder to remove so that compensates.

When the control meta gets here both factions will be in deep trouble that's for sure.

well it is said that control beats engines, engines beat pointslam and pointslam beats control and St is definitely more engine heavy like you showed yourself. but obviously no deck in gwent is 100% one of those things anymore. I think the problem rn now is that engines can barely beat pointslam, which is why control also has trouble due to people not playing it as much. but tbh the meta can shift very quickly during the first week, so maybe people play different things by now, I havent rly played for 2 days

 

[Guest 4375874]

mate you cant compare 1 deck to an entire faction, I havent seen any gezras in spellatael at all, nobody plays hamadryad or natures gift for that matter, not even francesca is included in the up-to-date meta list. also cards like swordmaster dont need "immediate attention", its not like it generates 2 points passively every turn like witch apprentice (and its also not a good choice for spellatael). its funny you mention vernossiels commando and hamadryad in the same section btw, as they dont work together.

the spellatael that is played relies VERY heavily on elven seer (if she dies you lose a massive amount of orb points) and whisperer, who also gives explosive points when all the counter spells replay themselves (unless seer died then whisperer also loses a lot of points). scribe isnt even that important and could almost be considered removal bait. sorceress can be important but only if your other engines stick, otherwise she plays for maybe 10 if youre lucky.

in MO if your witch apprentice dies it hurts but you usually dont lose any value from other cards. if your selfeater dies it sucks but you still have overtuned golds to win the game (how in the world did you forget to mention koshchey but mention gezras for spellatael, like whut?).
MO has some supporting engines but is mostly point slam. crones, gan ceann, mamunna, rat catcheress, kiki worker etc all just play for points.
ST on the other hand has immense problems when you kill seer or whisperer or even both and will lose in probably 9/10 games.
granted, ST can somewhat circumvent this problem by preparing counters and then tutoring one of those with oneiro, call or even council. but the point still stands.

While I agree with you that some MO cards need balancing, I think the same goes for ST and SK. When this mess started I played ST and I removed every seer and whisperer they played and still lost. As it is now they don't need R3 to play Gord for massive value. I've now noticed most players will go for 2-0 because they now can thanks to Simlas. In fact I had a match where I passed R1 because I knew what was coming and I did not draw the counters I needed. The player kept playing all their spells regardless and won despite being two cards down.

No question the MO cards need some balancing, and I've said Sabbath is the real problem but that aside...ST, SK and SY are hiding behind MO. They are just as broken.

 

[Celadyl]

While I agree with you that some MO cards need balancing, I think the same goes for ST and SK. When this mess started I played ST and I removed every seer and whisperer they played and still lost. As it is now they don't need R3 to play Gord for massive value. I've now noticed most players will go for 2-0 because they now can thanks to Simlas. In fact I had a match where I passed R1 because I knew what was coming and I did not draw the counters I needed. The player kept playing all their spells regardless and won despite being two cards down.

No question the MO cards need some balancing, and I've said Sabbath is the real problem but that aside...ST, SK and SY are hiding behind MO. They are just as broken.

which only leaves NR, which personally I think is very underrated

 

[rrc]

I don't agree. As far as bronze engines go MO have Selfeater and Witch Apprentice.
ST has Hamadryad (6 points right off the bat, just like Selfeater), Whisperer, Elven Seer and these 3 are only the most powerful ones that need immediate attention.
If they also add a Vernossiel's Commando or Elven Swordmasters that's already 5 engines that you have to deal with.

As far as gold engines go, MO have only Gerni. I guess you could include SWK in there but no one actually plays her because she's more or less useless.

ST has Gezras, Francesca (impossible to lock, you have to damage her or use Korathi on her), Dunca, and lately i saw Vanadain gets quite some value in certain decks.

Here i only included the cards i saw being played lately. Obviously not every deck will have all those but my point is that there are more engines that need "controlling" on ST than MO.

And if the meta shifts toward control decks i bet we'll see tons of locking NG stuff so yeah... when that happens MO will have the short stick since ST has more units with veil and more engines.

Hammadryad comes to board for 4. She goes to 6 with 33% of the leader commitment. Elven Seer is not an engine. Sorceress is not an engine. Whisperer is an engine and a dangerous one I agree, but quite easily removable by 4P cards. Francesca is not an engine. Francesca is like Manuna, but a delayed awkward Manuma who will play for much less value and much much harder to pull.