What other games can learn from the Witcher (SPOILERS)

[gregski]

I think this calls for a separate thread - on the nature of RPGs.

There is one already, in the community section I think.

 

[Seboist]

One thing CDPR can learn from BW's mistakes with ME is that if you're going to create a series with choice and consequences then you need to PLAN things out in advance. It's because of this that ME is a series of semi-reboots with a loose continuity that's riddled with plot points and foreshadowing that go nowhere and the "plot clay' nature of certain key actors(Liara and Cerberus) who change roles on a whim.

It's funny how W1 and W2's plots are only nominally related but they have a better continuity than ME1 and ME2 or ME2 and ME3.

 

[luc0s]

they should be what the developers vision dictates, not the entitled gamers, who ruin franchises by demanding their every spoiled whim be sated.

So you're on the "developers should keep their artistic integrity" side?

I disagree completely. As a game-designer myself (game-design student to be more precisely), these "entitled gamers" mean anything to us. They do not ruin games, they simply voice their opinion. If the majority thinks 'X' sucks, than 'X' should be changed.

We as developers do not build games solely to express our "artistic integrity". No, the developers develop products for the players to enjoy. More importantly: We try to make a living out of it. If the players do not enjoy your product, than there are 2 things you can do:

1) Ignore the players who don't like your product and risk losing sales.

2) Listen to the players and change your product, but risk losing respect from other players.

Whether a developer should choose 1 or 2 depends on the numbers. In the end, a developer makes his decisions based on what will cost them the least and give them the most profit.


And yes, Alpha Protocol is an incredibly inconsistent mess. The gameplay was really boring while the roleplaying elements were extremely well done. The voice-achting was extremely good while the animations were a horrible mess. The levels-design was bad and the environments were extremely boring, but the story was extremely well done. In other words: An inconsistent mess.

 

[secondchildren]

Cholera! Why does EVERY thread on this forum turn into a discussion about Mass Effect and Dragon Age? It's fiendishly annoiying. Stop that.

Yes precisely. I've already said this in another thread, and I'm repeating here now. It's pretty annoying reading about DA2 and Bioware and ME3 every two posts in the forum. Or at least, do it into the appropriate place.

Also I would suggest you to have a bit of respect to those players who on the opposite love Bioware the same. They come here to talk about TW, not to see Bioware flamed (for that there is BSN).

You know, the funny thing is, it goes like this on the BioWare forum too, but exactly the other way around! Haha!

No it ain't funny. Not at any more.

I invite any users in the forum to stop.

 

[mrowakus]

Yes precisely. I've already said this in another thread, and I'm repeating here now. It's pretty annoying reading about DA2 and Bioware and ME3 every two posts in the forum. Or at least, do it into the appropriate place.

Also I would suggest you to have a bit of respect to those players who on the opposite love Bioware the same. They come here to talk about TW, not to see Bioware flamed (for that there is BSN).


No it ain't funny. Not at any more.

I invite any users in the forum to stop.

Well, in the thread about what other games may learn from TW and the other way round, it's hard not to mention certain games as examples and actively criticize this and that feature. I agree though, that the personal attacks on particular audience cannot be justified (even though - hypocritically - I do the very thing quite often).

 

[secondchildren]

Well, in the thread about what other games may learn from TW and the other way round, it's hard not to mention certain games as examples and actively criticize this and that feature. I agree though, that the personal attacks on particular audience cannot be justified (even though - hypocritically - I do the very thing quite often).

Mentioned\compared yes. Flaming, no thanks. This I mean

 

[gregski]

Well, in the thread about what other games may learn from TW and the other way round

Actually, it's not the other way round but I'm sure I don't need to quote the topic's title for you.

There were separate threads dealing with what The Witcher may learn from other games.

 

[mrowakus]

Actually, it's not the other way round but I'm sure I don't need to quote the topic's title for you.

There were separate threads dealing with what The Witcher may learn from other games.

Yes, you are right but... well, to be perfectly honest I can't think of any thing exclusive to the Witcher that other games should learn from. Everything that is in TW2 was somewhere else. I even played japanese action-adventure games with more extensive C&C than the ones we see in CDPRed's game. So I really could not say that the game XYZ could use feature B from TW2, because many other games did it before.

To my mind the strength of TW2 lies not in originality but in the quality of implementation - how everything fits and works seamlessly together. But that's the thing you can wish in every game, and it is so dependent on the vision of the product - what it aims to achieve - that copying-pasting exactly the same method TW2 devs used could have catastrophic results.

In the end the only two things I can say that other devs could learn from TW2's team are: 1) attention to detail and planning in advance. 2) DLC policy - if you want to make DLC - fine, but make it free. If you want to get paid for your work than make a fully-realised expansion that would actually be worth money paid for it.

 

[Blothulfur]

Sorry SecondChildren, you know me, I get a bit fierce when defending the Witcher from calls to streamline and become accessible. I'll be a touch more circumspect from now on.

 

[luc0s]

Yes precisely. I've already said this in another thread, and I'm repeating here now. It's pretty annoying reading about DA2 and Bioware and ME3 every two posts in the forum. Or at least, do it into the appropriate place.

Also I would suggest you to have a bit of respect to those players who on the opposite love Bioware the same. They come here to talk about TW, not to see Bioware flamed (for that there is BSN).


No it ain't funny. Not at any more.

I invite any users in the forum to stop.

You're right. I'm sorry SecondChildren. I guess I'm a little like Blothulfur, but on the opposite side of the fence (I don't like it to see BioWare fans getting flamed, as I'm a BioWare fan myself, even though they did majorly screw up with Mass Effect 3).


But perhaps we should stop comparing games altogether?

It's better to judge every single game on their own merits, I think. I love The Witcher for several reasons. I also love Mass Effect and Dragon Age for other reasons. Comparing those games is like comparing apples to oranges, but I only realize that now.

 

[Blothulfur]

Anyway, back on topic, and no more mention of lesser products.

Dungeons. There is only one that stands out for me as truly exceptional in Assassins of Kings, and that is the burned asylum. This tragic, haunted locale tells its tale in an organic and subtle fashion. This little place, tucked away in the forest hides so much within its illustrated walls. And though its prisoners and guards are either dead or long since fled, none can escape it. Because they cannot escape themselves.

Once again, this brilliantly crafted place illustrates the humanity that lies at the core of the Witchers writing. A place of grotesque hideousness, scorched by the fires of burning rage, at odds with the cooling wind that stirs the leaves of the Flotsam forest.

One of the finest "dungeons" i've ever had the pleasure to venture through, it makes its impact with subtle brilliance. From the broken man, curled up foetus like and hugging himself, in the midst of madness and the screams of echoing horror. To the moment when you see the writings that illustrate the walls again, and are left astounded at the implications.

And all of this is born of a few rooms and connecting corridors, fantastic design.

 

[n4meless1]

What other games can learn from The Witcher 2?

- Not to include: QTEs, Consolish boss fights (lessens the seriousness of the game), Kill cams (although flashy, it adds nothing to the gameplay, disorienting player instead, when it ends), too many cut scenes (it puts you out of the character, lessening your RP ability, reminding you that you're playing a game)..
- How not to design a good crafting, loot, system, PC UI..
- Not to dumb down some elements from previous games (alchemy, conversation tree, bigger locations, some side activities)..

Hmm, I guess that TW2 has 'learned' those things from the other games, so now they have to unlearn it, if they've to learn anything..

Incoming REDrones at 3..2..1..

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dungeons. There is only one that stands out for me as truly exceptional in Assassins of Kings, and that is the burned asylum. This tragic, haunted locale tells its tale in an organic and subtle fashion. This little place, tucked away in the forest hides so much within its illustrated walls. And though its prisoners and guards are either dead or long since fled, none can escape it. Because they cannot escape themselves.

Once again, this brilliantly crafted place illustrates the humanity that lies at the core of the Witchers writing. A place of grotesque hideousness, scorched by the fires of burning rage, at odds with the cooling wind that stirs the leaves of the Flotsam forest.

One of the finest "dungeons" i've ever had the pleasure to venture through, it makes its impact with subtle brilliance. From the broken man, curled up foetus like and hugging himself, in the midst of madness and the screams of echoing horror. To the moment when you see the writings that illustrate the walls again, and are left astounded at the implications.

And all of this is born of a few rooms and connecting corridors, fantastic design.

100% agreed, one of my favorite side quests. It uses supernatural elements ((ghosts) to convey human emotions and suffering (like the mist). And in addition to that, it added a very subtle characterization of Loredo's mom and by extension Loredo himself.
Furthermore, it started Geralt's exploration of the Wild Hunt.

It was still unrelated enough to be a sidequest, but ultimately still very relevant and with a piece of story to it that fits the whole puzzle. That's how I like my sidequests and dungeons.

 

[Soltblod]

What other games can learn from The Witcher 2?

- Not to include: QTEs, Consolish boss fights (lessens the seriousness of the game), Kill cams (although flashy, it adds nothing to the gameplay, disorienting player instead, when it ends), too many cut scenes (it puts you out of the character, lessening your RP ability, reminding you that you're playing a game)..
- How not to design a good crafting, loot, system, PC UI..
- Not to dumb down some elements from previous games (alchemy, conversation tree, bigger locations, some side activities)..

Hmm, I guess that TW2 has 'learned' those things from the other games, so now they have to unlearn it, if they've to learn anything..

Incoming REDrones at 3..2..1..

Hm. What were your problems with the QTEs and the Dialogue? I found the Dialogue rather goodly done, since it gives you an idea what you're actually going to say and makes it worthwhile for you to listen to the character saying what you just clicked.

 

[kitadol]

100% agreed, one of my favorite side quests. It uses supernatural elements ((ghosts) to convey human emotions and suffering (like the mist). And in addition to that, it added a very subtle characterization of Loredo's mom and by extension Loredo himself.
Furthermore, it started Geralt's exploration of the Wild Hunt.

It was still unrelated enough to be a sidequest, but ultimately still very relevant and with a piece of story to it that fits the whole puzzle. That's how I like my sidequests and dungeons.

As always, I agree 100% with you

 

[Username.]

There's definitely some truth in saying that in spite of all its glorious parts TW series could learn something from other games. I for one thing lament the fact that in a story-driven game, where the player/character's choices have so much impact on the world around you, the character progression within the frame of the story barely plays any role. I think TW could look into how Planescape:Torment, Mask of the Betrayer and Arcanum worked, and learn a lot from them.

What I wouldn't want is TW series learning from Bioware - at least the current one. The last thing this franchise needs is turning every area into a linear corridor where you smack hordes of clueless monsters, as you move from point A to B to C to D to E, with an obligatory cutscene at each point. etc.

I think this calls for a separate thread - on the nature of RPGs.

Making an Idiot Savant in Arcanum was awesome, my pc was unable to hold a proper conversation but was a genius at crafting.

 

[secondchildren]

Just saw this, and I have to say that I kinda agree (except for the fast travel). If you can handle with Angry Joe sillyness , I recommend (pretty funny imo)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZalDXnEC1cE&feature=g-vrec&context=G2d6252fRVAAAAAAAAAA

 

[gregski]

Just saw this, and I have to say that I kinda agree (except for the fast travel). If you can handle with Angry Joe sillyness , I recommend (pretty funny imo)

I love this guy. There's a lot of reason behind his apparent silliness

 

[thedagothur]

I love this guy. There's a lot of reason behind his apparent silliness

Of course, his angry self is just a Gimmick made to entertain, he is very reasonable and fair.

i met him, dude's awesome.

 

[thedagothur]

Yes precisely. I've already said this in another thread, and I'm repeating here now. It's pretty annoying reading about DA2 and Bioware and ME3 every two posts in the forum. Or at least, do it into the appropriate place.

Also I would suggest you to have a bit of respect to those players who on the opposite love Bioware the same. They come here to talk about TW, not to see Bioware flamed (for that there is BSN).


No it ain't funny. Not at any more.

I invite any users in the forum to stop.

This, not exactly fond of BW as of late but i do love some of their games, but regardless, i didn't come here for BW.

and if i REALLY needed to bitch about BW i'd blog it, not shove it on someone's throat.