What players think of combat system and different classes of firearms?

[CS554]

Again, as I said, that is because most game DEV do not know how to properly utilize shields in games. So yes I can see why you think this. One of the features of using a shiled most games do not apply is the lack of perception while blocking. If someone is hiding behind a shield they are much easier to maneuver around to hit them in the back. But you never see this in games. I know this can be done in games, as I have done this in the combat mods I have made for games like Oblivion and Skyrim based on my 40 years of real life medieval martial arts experience.

Yeah I remember you mentioned your experience with medieval martial arts in other topic and I can understand experience you describe but I just think it's very unlikely that CDPR would implement that and that is because of most players would just pick and stick with Tech weapons and shoot trough shields.

Player using shield then, you actually said that. SWAT operates as a team, and person using a shield always has their back covered. Also, they are commonly used in entry situations via doorway and such, narrow passages.

In CP 2077 V is alone and there are certain things in NPC combat AI that would make it work for now. See this:

	NPC gunner
		|
NPC moving to pincher (melee)	NPC with melee weapon moving to attack	| <- wall | |
		|
	V with a gun

Above scenario is from game version 1.3 at normal difficulty against Tyger Claws. So gunner is blocked by their melee guy, other melee guy is not engaged yet, neither is one rushing towards V. So while there's 3 NPC's there, situation is practically 0 - vs V as V used a gun in this scenario. (I posted this months ago in other topic and gave different numbers and nobody bothered to correct that, but this is IMO important).

So now I hope they would enhance combat at CDRP is that Tyger Claws could have throwing knives or grenades, especially NPC moving to pincher would be a big threat with grenades.

Now apply shield to this scenario, it might be that V wouldn't even see that NPC coming, much less where grenade came from.

Other way around, if two Tyger Claws would had shields, V could just fire through them with Tech weapon and NPC's were limited to one handed weapons, excluding assault weapons and shotguns that might actually do damage.

So I don't know, like I wrote I think it's unlikely they implement shields in game, I have some hope that they would give some more options to NPC AI but even that remains to be seen.

 

[SpookyFX]

Yeah I remember you mentioned your experience with medieval martial arts in other topic and I can understand experience you describe but I just think it's very unlikely that CDPR would implement that and that is because of most players would just pick and stick with Tech weapons and shoot trough shields.

Player using shield then, you actually said that. SWAT operates as a team, and person using a shield always has their back covered. Also, they are commonly used in entry situations via doorway and such, narrow passages.

In CP 2077 V is alone and there are certain things in NPC combat AI that would make it work for now. See this:

	NPC gunner
		|
NPC moving to pincher (melee)	NPC with melee weapon moving to attack	| <- wall | |
		|
	V with a gun

Above scenario is from game version 1.3 at normal difficulty against Tyger Claws. So gunner is blocked by their melee guy, other melee guy is not engaged yet, neither is one rushing towards V. So while there's 3 NPC's there, situation is practically 0 - vs V as V used a gun in this scenario. (I posted this months ago in other topic and gave different numbers and nobody bothered to correct that, but this is IMO important).

So now I hope they would enhance combat at CDRP is that Tyger Claws could have throwing knives or grenades, especially NPC moving to pincher would be a big threat with grenades.

Now apply shield to this scenario, it might be that V wouldn't even see that NPC coming, much less where grenade came from.

Other way around, if two Tyger Claws would had shields, V could just fire through them with Tech weapon and NPC's were limited to one handed weapons, excluding assault weapons and shotguns that might actually do damage.

So I don't know, like I wrote I think it's unlikely they implement shields in game, I have some hope that they would give some more options to NPC AI but even that remains to be seen.

You make some very good points.

 

[Didacgomez]

Taking into account that the game is not a full shooter or a "true" RPG I think weapons and combat work quite well, you can choose your favorite way of combat and be viable... then you OP and are a walking god of destruction and since level cap is too high you can be OP in another weapon, but this is a problem of the character progression system not the combat/weapon system-I've found myself enjoying more the game being a jack of all trades character, so spreading thin my progressin to keep the difficulty-.

What I meant by "true" is that when you add directly player control on actions-opposed to something purely turn-based where you instruct the character to perform an action- you have a problem of how to translate progression... which in computer RPGs is basically the center of design.

In a turn-based RPG you can spec attributes,skllls,perks to influence only your chance to hit/aim with precision... in action-RPG, designers try to avoid that because it causes oddities like hitting (visually) a target and registering 0 damage (because your character skill is too low and even if you should hit the rules say that you fail). Then the only way to add progression to the system and avoiding this disconnect for the player is too add the progression in things like reducing recoil,sway and damage increments...so you end with the unrealistic feature that a level 50 character and a level 1 character with the same weapon make different damage, which for a melee weapon might make more sense(or we are willing to ignore that more willingly) but with bullets or energy weapons always feels a little off.


And I don´t think that the impact of "level-scaling" items is that big or the culpritt of ALL that feels wrong-I would have preferred fixed damage per weapon,but I don´t think is that evil-.

Even in "shooter" RPGs without item scaling, the damage of the weapon is not by any means the same for a level 1 character and a level X character... for example in Fallout New Vegas your damage is calculated as :
"
Final damage=Damadjusted2×SA×LM×AM×DM×Perks×Chems
Damadjusted2=max(Damadjusted1×0.2,Damadjusted1−DTadjusted)
DTadjusted=max(0,DT×AmmoDTmult−AmmoDT)
Damadjusted1=(Dam×Special+isCrit×CritDmg×CritPerks)×DR
Dam=Dmg×Skill×Cond×Power+Bonus
"
The weapon and the ammunition used itself modify damage but there is a plethora of "non-weapon" damage modifiers and multipliers related to character progression (SA is multiplier by sneak attack that is 2x + guaranteed critical, so a bullet from stealth causes more damage...)... just "Dam" can swing between 50% to 150% of the weapon base damage(Dmg) based on your character skill with that weapon.

The game at the end was not announced as a tactical-shooter(kind of Swat3/4,Rainbow Six,Ghost Reconn) where you can expect semi-realistic combat or pure shooter like Quake,Unreal,Doom where you aim for frenzy combat.

 

[Feline_Witcher]

At least half your issue is the misconception of "silenced" weapons. There's no such thing. Suppressors lessen the noise of a firearm, but do not eliminate the sound completely. As for the rest, you basically answered your own question. You missed, and the round hit something. Unless they're deaf as a post, anyone nearby would go "What the fuck was that?" and look into it. Also, a lot of areas are fairly acoustic (inside buildings, etc) so while muffled to an extent, there'd still be some echo from the shot.

Guns were never meant to be noiseless anyway

Post automatically merged: Jan 28, 2022

LOL... normal people do not carry around rocket launchers and chain guns:

View attachment 11274730

I want THIS craziness in CP2077

 

[BabaBooey88]

Post automatically merged: Jan 28, 2022

I want THIS craziness in CP2077

Agreed.

Combat; It's OK I guess. I feel the only reason you can pick your "play style" is because there aren't any costs or benefits to making a serious choice. Enemies don't issue response to how you engage them and gang/faction attributes are sorely lacking. Some of the guns feel appropriate for their purposes, while there are other that still feel like pea shooters - largely a feedback issue I think (sound design, recoil, reloading speed,etc). Since 1.3, it seems the enemies have increased damaged and HP and use cover more... Perhaps this is a bandaid until, hopefully, the AI is sorted out. As of right now, the already insanely level scaling feels like an uphill climb. I can take out a fully loaded squad of Militech soldiers, flanked by droids, but wandering into the wrong section of Valentino territory sends me out in a body bag within mere seconds. They don't see through walls as often, but sometimes I'll walk right up to them and they are looking for me as if I am cloaked... I dunno.

 

[Mobster100]

How do players feel about combat and weapon / weapon classes (pistols, shotguns, submachine guns, rifles, etc.)?

There's some conflicting information about how combat works and I wonder how much confirmation bias has to do with that. Further I have been thinking about conversation in other topic which prompted more questions. For me weapon classes work and I have been able to find a right weapons to do my playing style and also mixing things up a bit. I'm not interested about having entirely new features such as different ammo types but wonder what could be done with what there's in game now.

This is not a suggestion but I hope players would share their thoughts in context of what is above.

Im not sure this is exactly what you mean, but for me the weapons as such are fine, meaning that I can find one that I enjoy or think fit the style of the V I want to make. I do have issues with the smart and tech weapons (those that can shoot through walls) or maybe its more correct to say how ping/tagging works as it makes these weapons to strong.

I will consider the psychic abilities as weapons as well, and also here I think some of them are way to strong.

Alternative the AI is to weak to be able to deal with these weapons, so it depends how or which part of the game one look at I think.

Another issue is the skill system itself, to me the majority of these are not interesting, this is obviously a highly personal view, but for me in FPS like this, skills that adjust weapon damage etc. doesn't really do anything for me. Because I don't get the impression or care if I have a skill that increases pistol damage by 5% or whatever. I shoot enemies until they die, I don't really care to keep track of my damage as I would in a game like Diablo or POE.

So were the skill damage increases simply added to the weapons through upgrades, attachments and customization and all the skills removed that targeted specific weapons, it would work just fine for me. Basically having your "skill points" invested in the weapons you like to use and you could visually see the changes, upgrades etc. when you use it, would work better for me in games like this.

Skills should focus on dealing with tasks in the game, giving you access to new options, how to do deal with situations, things that would help you define the personality of your character. Are you better at convincing people, blackmail them for information, hacking etc. It could maybe give access to abilities you can activate that last for a given point of time etc.

So all in all, I think the weapons as such are fine and I do enjoy shooting with them etc. But I think its more the other aspect of the game that causes issues here.

 

[forest_spirit]

I think the shooting is generally okay, yeah.

But I wish melee had a bigger focus than hacking away.

I mean, despite ranged spells, Geralt used 99% melee for the past two games (witcher 1 was mechanically more cludgy RPG than action-rpg) so I was hoping for a bit more nuance in this regard.

 

[medion_no]

If have to choose a firearm, I prefer the power ones you hold down and heads fly. Btw does anyone know why smart weapons never hit tigers claws even with the legendary smart link? It was something that happened with the tattoo of the gang but with the smart link too? Its another bug?

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Btw does anyone know why smart weapons never hit tigers claws even with the legendary smart link? It was something that happened with the tattoo of the gang but with the smart link too? Its another bug?

Some Tigers have the tattoo (the same as Wakako offer you) and are almost immune to smart weapons
Tattoo: Tyger Claws Dermal Implant

While this cyberware is installed, enemies utilizing Smart Link will be unable to target you with their Smart weapons.

 

[medion_no]

Some Tigers have the tattoo (the same as Wakako offer you) and are almost immune to smart weapons
Tattoo: Tyger Claws Dermal Implant

loool

 

[Notserious80]

If have to choose a firearm, I prefer the power ones you hold down and heads fly. Btw does anyone know why smart weapons never hit tigers claws even with the legendary smart link? It was something that happened with the tattoo of the gang but with the smart link too? Its another bug?

Tiger claws has the same tech so they have resistance vs smart wepons, kinda.

Edit: too slow me.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

loool

Not a joke, some are immune as V if they have this cyberware installed
(exactly like some "ninja" guys can avoid bullets because they use sandevistan)
It's not 100% bullet proof, but almost all miss the target. Some screenshots on me with the tattoo.

 

[BabaBooey88]

loool

It's true. Unfortunately I did not notice any similar traits for the other gangs. There are mods that do this though. There's one mod that even adds skill stats and associations for the clothing you wear. You know... like the impressions we got from several trailers, even some just before release. There is also one mod where you can remove clothing mods, soooo you could wear the clothes you want, armor up, change clothes depending on the mission, etc.

 

[CS554]

Combat; It's OK I guess. I feel the only reason you can pick your "play style" is because there aren't any costs or benefits to making a serious choice. Enemies don't issue response to how you engage them and gang/faction attributes are sorely lacking.

Scavengers in Southern Pacifica always went from their guns to their melee weapons if my V attacked them using blade, knife or katana on 1.3 normal difficulty.

For me it was a bit pity as I hoped that at least some of them would kept sticking to their guns.

Another issue is the skill system itself, to me the majority of these are not interesting, this is obviously a highly personal view, but for me in FPS like this, skills that adjust weapon damage etc. doesn't really do anything for me. Because I don't get the impression or care if I have a skill that increases pistol damage by 5% or whatever. I shoot enemies until they die, I don't really care to keep track of my damage as I would in a game like Diablo or POE.

So were the skill damage increases simply added to the weapons through upgrades, attachments and customization and all the skills removed that targeted specific weapons, it would work just fine for me. Basically having your "skill points" invested in the weapons you like to use and you could visually see the changes, upgrades etc. when you use it, would work better for me in games like this.

This has been brought up earlier and while I prefer to discuss about game we have, I gotta say I might had preferred something like what you describe as well. That wouldn't even make Perks in weapon skill trees entirely redundant as reload speed could had been left and there could have been something new like hip firing accuracy as new item. That said, while I'm on Xbox I do hope for those on PC there someone would make a mod like that.

I left topic a quite open to discuss about things that players feel might not be intuitive and share information about how in-game mechanics translate into actual game experience and if there are bottlenecks there. I think silenced weapons are one, role of submachine guns is other.

Then in bigger picture game is actually very good to play at least on normal difficulty without focusing to Tech/Crafting as there's good enough loot available from NPC's to keep up with level scaling and that's huge help for players whom don't want to spent their time to loot everything to break into components and that. Possible bottleneck there is that there's really no way of knowing that before hand. I went to (Don't Fear) the Reaper ending on my last playthrough, very little invested in Tech/Crafting and spent 20 minutes+ to fiddling with menu to upgrade what I had and then run in weapon stores to get more components before I gave up on that. Then when get to game play it turned out I didn't need that legendary light machine gun after all. LOL. It's not terrible system but in-game economics, lack of transparency for top level equipment costs make planning ahead a guessing game and that in turn reflects to non Crafting builds perhaps unintuitive choice and I hope CDPR tweaks to in game economy regarding that.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Scavengers in Southern Pacifica always went from their guns to their melee weapons if my V attacked them using blade, knife or katana on 1.3 normal difficulty.

For me it was a bit pity as I hoped that at least some of them would kept sticking to their guns.

I'm sure that the "big" Tigers dudes switch between guns and melee weapons in function of the distance between them and you
(I have a very hard time to make these dudes to jump-attack on me with melee weapon because they often switch to guns when I was too far)

 

[CS554]

I'm sure that the "big" Tigers dudes switch between guns and melee weapons in function of the distance between them and you
(I have a very hard time to make these dudes to jump-attack on me with melee weapon because they often switch to guns when I was too far)

That's interesting. I wonder if that's something to do with selected difficulty level? There's scenario from game ver. 1.3. with Tyger Claws on normal difficulty in a table I posted earlier and contributing factor to 3 hostile NPC's being present but scenario being in practice 0 vs V is happened partially because Tyger Claws didn't change their melee weapons to guns.

There's particular location where I have tested that in game ver. 1.24 too. Can't just remember the name.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

That's interesting. I wonder if that's something to do with selected difficulty level? There's scenario from game ver. 1.3. with Tyger Claws on normal difficulty in a table I posted earlier and contributing factor to 3 hostile NPC's being present but scenario being in practice 0 vs V is happened partially because Tyger Claws didn't change their melee weapons to guns.

There's particular location where I have tested that in game ver. 1.24 too. Can't just remember the name.

Yep maybe the difficulty. I'm always in very hard (so I don't know on lower difficulties).
But I remember this dude because it was a real pain to take the screenshot. Too close he don't jump with his melee weapon and too far he use his smart gun (and with my +/-500 armor, he almost one-shot me). I spent easily 30 min to take this 2 screenshots

 

[Salvador_Constante]

I really like the combat, but i would like it more if it , somehow, made you use more than one weapon style.
the classic formula but on steroids; you have a normal regular fight, use a gun. you have a bulky enemy infront use a shotgun, you have a semi crouded place , use a machine gun. things like that, but in a way that make it feel like you HAVE TO, not only for style points or something like that, example you can kill a cyberspycho with a gun, or a shotgun or a sniper and it takes almost the same time, it should be like "5 minutes with gun, 3 with shotgun, 1 with a good sniped shot" something like that, im not that good of a "programmer" or "designer" so i cant give more than that, but thats what i think it would make the combat better.

 

[Qoric]

How do players feel about combat and weapon / weapon classes (pistols, shotguns, submachine guns, rifles, etc.)?

There's some conflicting information about how combat works and I wonder how much confirmation bias has to do with that. Further I have been thinking about conversation in other topic which prompted more questions. For me weapon classes work and I have been able to find a right weapons to do my playing style and also mixing things up a bit. I'm not interested about having entirely new features such as different ammo types but wonder what could be done with what there's in game now.

This is not a suggestion but I hope players would share their thoughts in context of what is above.


Silenced weapons / stealth.

While silenced handguns work very well in single headshot elimination, there are factors that could be perhaps improved.

Noise

Silenced handguns:

Weapon noise: Missing a shot from relative far distance should not alert enemies, unless...
Bullet: missed bullet going near enemy NPC causing pressure wave that can be felt, bullet hits hard surface or other objects causing noise that can be heard by enemy NPC's. For example, even if bullet hits a wall far from intended target, there might be other enemy NPC's near that wall alerted by noise.


Silenced submachine guns:

Thinking two power SMG's, Darra Polytechnics DS1 Pulsar and Militech M221 Saratoga, with fire rate of 8.89 for Pulsar and 6.90 rounds for M221, even with M221 that would leave 0.14 seconds for reacting to first bullet and 0.28 secs when second one hits and 0.42 secs for third.

I tried looking up information regarding detection time and found out only that detection time gets shorter by difficulty level, not exact time in seconds. That leaves rest of this a bit difficult to debate but: If silenced SMG should be powerful enough to eliminate enemy with two headshots (0.28 secs window) or even with 3 shots in case of M221 without alerting rest of enemies and with related damage perks, also regarding taking advantage of cover and Skull Skipper (Each headshot reduces recoil with Rifles and Submachine Guns by 5% for 10 sec. Stacks up to 5 times).

Silenced submachine guns would be intuitive choice for ranges between a pistol and assault rifle as typically lower caliber is associated with bullets not penetrating enemy target completely (and causing noise, hitting another NPC).


Silenced assault rifles:

AFAIK there's only one silenced weapon that can headshot high level enemy NPC's from far distance and that's Ajax assault rifle obtainable only by crafting.

There's couple of things with that making that bit unintuitive choice. First, assault rifles and high caliber sniper rifles tend to be suppressed rather than silenced. I don't know if there's international consensus about terms but suppressing sound doesn't usually mean silenced, but that it makes it difficult to locate where sound of shot came from.

Second, while it makes sense such technology to exists in CP 2077 universe, silencer with assault rifle is doing quite a few things, also reducing velocity of bullet to level where it doesn't break the sound barrier

Third, I don't know if silenced assault rifle shots do penetrate enemy NPC or not. With assault rifles and sniper rifles, intuitive way to think of them is that bullet is likely to penetrate target completely. What that means for stealth, is that while enemy is single shotted, bullet might still hit solid object causing noise or other NPC.


Silenced sniper rifle, custom (Overwatch):

There's only one silenced sniper rifle in game. Overwatch has built in silencer but silencer doesn't appear to be working, at least all the time. I have read conflicting reports from here and LowSodiumCyberpunk regarding that.

With Overwatch similar questions regarding silencing it apply as with silenced assault rifles, but description says silenced so there it is. However feature isn't working which leads to other thoughts:

• Description meant to say suppressed instead of silenced, but that wouldn't achieve anything as AFAIK there's no known difference at the moment at least, between silencing and suppressing that would make practical difference to NPC reactions.
• Is Overwatch working as intended regardless of what description says?

SMG:s still have utility especially for low Body characters as they are lighter than assault rifles. SMG's can be great backup but I'm uncertain, if there's gameplay scenario where silencer with them has practical value in gameplay terms.

I might be wrong with details here, so I would like to know what people think and if there's something that could be made to feature suggestion.

Satori, dived we stand and overwatch. fully upgraded the best set up easily