What weapons do you want to see in the game?

[chriswebb2020.736]

Well, looking at the trailer, the cases that th cops are using do not look like brass but steel, (available in 2020 but not without its issues.) They also look crimped in the same way as blanks. I was wondering about that little red bad on the casing, perhaps a signifier for what type of round it is, or a manufacturer?

I expect cased ammo in 2077 to use a brass alternative, probably a synthetic compound. Cheap, easy to produce and not likely to cause sparks.

Many of the 2020 weapons, particularly the more common ones, were based around traditional platforms, (like the AK47and the AR15.) Many of them were basically rebuilt in a bullpup layout and feed swapped for caseless. Not much difference beyond that.

when you think about it, when 2020 was written, the M16 had only really been around for about 20 years. Also, prior to the M16 the US had replaced its standard issue rifle about 3 times in 40 years. It wasn't unreasonable to expect the trend to continue. The XM8 was supposed to fill the role in real life until they worked out the cost...
Hindsight is always 20/20...


Oh, and the .50 BMG ETE is 9D10 as Wis pointed out, and counts armour as half...

Damn I miss Axl's custom built semi-auto .50 ETE carbine with easy change barrels...

 

[Sardukhar]

Well, looking at the trailer, the cases that th cops are using do not look like brass but steel, (available in 2020 but not without its issues.) They also look crimped in the same way as blanks. I was wondering about that little red bad on the casing, perhaps a signifier for what type of round it is, or a manufacturer?

Well, red often means AP or Incendiary.

Oh, and the .50 BMG ETE is 9D10 as Wis pointed out, and counts armour as half...

Okay, but where do you get that from? Street Weapons says one thing about big guns, Chrome 2 another.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Well, red often means AP or Incendiary.



Okay, but where do you get that from? Street Weapons says one thing about big guns, Chrome 2 another.

Didn't look like AP rounds in the trailer, nor incendiary. They look like FMJs. Actually, do FMJs constitute armour piercing?

And I can't remember which rules I used.

 

[dragonbird]

I wouldn't make too many assumptions about the game based on the trailer anyway, it was too early in the design process.

 

[Decatonkeil]

Didn't look like AP rounds in the trailer, nor incendiary. They look like FMJs. Actually, do FMJs constitute armour piercing?

And I can't remember which rules I used.

Weren't the bullets in the trailer frangible rounds? I don't know jack about ammunitions, but for what I understand frangible rounds are ammunition that shreds when impacting on hard surfaces as to not ricochet on them and harm an unwanted target, and so they could be useful in situations like the one depicted in the trailer.

 

[Suhiira]

FMJs are definitely NOT armor piercing rounds.
They're Geneva Convention standard since they don't mushroom as much as pure lead rounds thus are "more humane".
Most militaries use them not so much because of the Convention but because they pierce light cover better, are less inclined to damage from rough handling then a lead bullet, tend to foul the barrel less, and a few other things.
Armor piercing rounds usually have a steel or tungsten core, and usually have a black tip (that's NATO standard).

Those may have been frangible rounds, but I strongly suspect they were just normal rounds shattering on her body armor.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Weren't the bullets in the trailer frangible rounds? I don't know jack about ammunitions, but for what I understand frangible rounds are ammunition that shreds when impacting on hard surfaces as to not ricochet on them and harm an unwanted target, and so they could be useful in situations like the one depicted in the trailer.

That is a good observation, though I don't believe they are. Frangible rounds do indeed shatter when they hit a hard surface, this is to prevent over penetration and potentially lethal collateral damage, (like piercing the skin of an aircraft you are inside of.)

But the rounds in the trailer appear to have a full copper jacket. They may be some sort if expanding round, or partially frangible.

Heck, I may well be wring and you may well be right.

Looks damn cool though.

And in my experience CDPR are nothing if not observant, creative, devious and masters of using hidden details. I'm sure there is quite a bit in the trailer that we have yet to recognise and/or deceminate.

 

[wisdom000]

What -is- the damage on a .50 BMG? 20mm EHI is 4d10 +6 but armour is 1/4, damage is not, making it equal to 16D10+24..

50 BMG is 12.7 mm...I used to know this. Isn't that a base 9 or 10D6? IIRC, D10 damage weapons typically at least 1/2 SP and keep penetrating damage, so would 50 BMG be 6D10 or 10D6?

Then you ETE it....so 9D10? 15D6?

Yikes.

.50 BMG dose 6d10 damage, ETE bumps that to 9d10.

the 4D10 20mm is a light underpowered version of the 20mm, which normally does 8d10.

 

[Sardukhar]

.50 BMG dose 6d10 damage, ETE bumps that to 9d10.

the 4D10 20mm is a light underpowered version of the 20mm, which normally does 8d10.

Yeah, yeah, but where do you get this from?

See, there are contradictory numbers in Chr 2 vs Street Weapons.

The main book lists the standard B-A 20mm as 4D10AP, armour is dropped 2 pts per hit.

For reference, the Chr 2 Colt-Mauser20mm, not underpowered, does 4d10+6 EHI. Armour is 1/4. The 30mm does...6D10+12 per hit. EHI.

Neither of those is referenced as underpowered. Both 20mm and 30mm is much larger than a .50 BMG, which is 12.7mm.

EHI rounds are Depleted Uranium, (we called them Thumpers, from teh sound they made hitting metal. Originally in a CP2020 fanzine), 1/4 armour, full damage.

In Blackhands Street Weapons, they dispense with the ( much superior) anti armour rule and just make the Colt Mauser and The Militech AM Rifle stupid amounts of D10 instead. Ignores overpenetration, which the EHI rule covered, but whatever.

So which rule? And, how will it apply in 2077? 20 and 30mm is designed to engage armour, but will it also be a one-hit kill in 2077 on everything else? Like a super-bazooka?

 

[wisdom000]

KISS


Blackhands was written after Chrome 2, it corrects the data...

Blckhands also lines up with Max Metal, which has the optional penetration rules.

 

[blank_redge]

20 and 30mm is designed to engage armour, but will it also be a one-hit kill in 2077 on everything else? Like a super-bazooka?

20mm / 30mm *should* be a one-hit kill to any squishy target.


cased vs. caseless

Do you suppose that cased ammo, as written in canon 2020, is the same as what we'd expect today?

The idea of no ejection port for fouling / jams is counter-intuitive to me. It'd make sense to me if the propellant were baked or otherwise formed around the round, aping brass cased ammo, and possibly providing firearms the option of using both cased or caseless ammo.

 

[wisdom000]

20mm / 30mm *should* be a one-hit kill to any squishy target.


cased vs. caseless

Do you suppose that cased ammo, as written in canon 2020, is the same as what we'd expect today?

The idea of no ejection port for fouling / jams is counter-intuitive to me. It'd make sense to me if the propellant were baked or otherwise formed around the round, aping brass cased ammo, and possibly providing firearms the option of using both cased or caseless ammo.

That would make far more sense....

 

[ReptilePZ]

.50 BMG dose 6d10 damage, ETE bumps that to 9d10.

the 4D10 20mm is a light underpowered version of the 20mm, which normally does 8d10.

http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Angurvadal

Spoiler

 

[blank_redge]

That would make far more sense....

That's the way I'm running caseless ammo in my games, unless the firearm *specifically* says it uses caseless only (ie, the "old style" of caseless ammo, as we know it now.)

 

[blank_redge]

-spooky double post-

 

[Sardukhar]

20mm / 30mm *should* be a one-hit kill to any squishy target.


cased vs. caseless
and possibly providing firearms the option of using both cased or caseless ammo.

An interesting idea, although one of the nice things about no ejection port and no chunks of metal flying about is that less things to go wrong. Anyone having had a failure to feed because of this knows what 'm talking about.


The Blackhand's rules for the 20 and 30mm do less damage to armoured targets than Chr 2 on average and have less minimum damage. So although they will typically splatter you, as you say, they might not. It's just a bunch of D10s instead of some D10s plus a minimum to damage.
They also don't have anything interesting like DPU rules. High-speed, high-density rounds wouldn't increase wound trauma to a live target particularly - they don't tumble or open up but go straight through.

This is relevant in terms of armour penetration and post-penetration damage. Shooting a borg with 9D10 damage is weaker than 4d10+6 1/4 armour, full penetrating.

I hope that CDPR does separate gross damage from particular, armour-piercing damage, especially on certain rounds. In short, I hope they go with Chrome 2 and not Blackhand's.


Max Metal rules - the rules part, not the great background and tech - kind of made me laugh since I saw Toughness for power armour.

 

[blank_redge]

An interesting idea, although one of the nice things about no ejection port and no chunks of metal flying about is that less things to go wrong. Anyone having had a failure to feed because of this knows what 'm talking about.

I hear you; in theory, no brass and no ejection port means no stovepipes or similar badness. I'm just trying to wrap my head around what a failure to feed in a caseless ammo firearm would look like, and how you'd clear it.

 

[Sardukhar]

I hear you; in theory, no brass and no ejection port means no stovepipes or similar badness. I'm just trying to wrap my head around what a failure to feed in a caseless ammo firearm would look like, and how you'd clear it.

Well, let's see. Failure to feed comes from a poor headspace mating; weak spring/poor seating or other error in magazine; improper or insufficient breech closure; overpressure error; metal fatigue; whatever I'm forgetting.

Many of those would still occur, of course. Clearing them - hmm. Depends on how much of the caseless matrix was intact. I'd presume most or all, otherwise you'd likely have a catastrophic failure in the chamber, making it a moot point. Clearing with an intact round probably the usual slap-pull-and-clear....which means you would need an ejection port for emergencies?

Dunno how they fixed caseless rounds to make them reliable.must have been pretty clever, huh?

 

[blank_redge]

Dunno how they fixed caseless rounds to make them reliable.must have been pretty clever, huh?

Rather.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Well, let's see. Failure to feed comes from a poor headspace mating; weak spring/poor seating or other error in magazine; improper or insufficient breech closure; overpressure error; metal fatigue; whatever I'm forgetting.

Many of those would still occur, of course. Clearing them - hmm. Depends on how much of the caseless matrix was intact. I'd presume most or all, otherwise you'd likely have a catastrophic failure in the chamber, making it a moot point. Clearing with an intact round probably the usual slap-pull-and-clear....which means you would need an ejection port for emergencies?

Dunno how they fixed caseless rounds to make them reliable.must have been pretty clever, huh?

Well, now I think about it, caseless uses an electric charge instead of a bolt and pin. The weapons would not necessarily operate by gas or recoil, maybe an electric feed like a minigun?

If there is no ejection port I guess the only other option would be to take out the mag and eject that way.

At least hang fires would be far less lethal, what with no brass to contain the combustion gases...