My point isn't that some person may or may not be at the end of a side quest, or that later in the game you can find someone who was alive now dead. It's that the story for the side quest is 99% the same no matter how you play it, let alone tying into other side quests and that small detail that is in there is really bland an unimaginative.
I know me personally and I believe most people complaining about meaningless choices/ lack of consequences is we expected a completely different story to the side quests depending on choices you made. Just like they did in TW3.
Here's the problem. Users in this thread and in other threads claim that the quest The Package, which was shown in the demo, has choices and consequences while the rest of the quests don't.
So premise one is The Package is supposed to be the standard that the rest of the quests didn't live up to.
But I pointed out other quests that have the same level of choices and consequences as The Package. Now you say 99% is the same. Not gonna argue as it's not relevant what the percentage is. The relevant question is if The Package quest meets some required status then why don't the other quests when to me they are nearly identical.
I think you are arguing a totally different question. Do any quests, INCLUDING The package offer real consequences. But that is not the question here as the issue was the game doesn't meet the standards set in the demo as shown by the quest The Package.
Here's the problem. Users in this thread and in other threads claim that the quest The Package, which was shown in the demo, has choices and consequences while the rest of the quests don't.
So premise one is The Package is supposed to be the standard that the rest of the quests didn't live up to.
But I pointed out other quests that have the same level of choices and consequences as The Package. Now you say 99% is the same. Not gonna argue as it's not relevant what the percentage is. The relevant question is if The Package quest meets some required status then why don't the other quests when to me they are nearly identical.
I think you are arguing a totally different question. Do any quests, INCLUDING The package offer real consequences. But that is not the question here as the issue was the game doesn't meet the standards set in the demo as shown by the quest The Package.
Yeah, you're probably right that I'm arguing a different topic, as the way I see it, the package did have much better writing than other quests, but yeah, to me it is the same choice/consequence as all the others, practically nill. I expected more.
And I do agree with you in that comment you made about the ripper doc. I would have no problems if I punch the guy and he refuses to sell to me. (I actually think there's a couple gigs that do this with different vendors) Seems to be a case of some people wanting everything.
It's true you can't have sex in your apartment. And they showed someone naked leaving your bed. Other than that we have no idea what any of that means. You implied it meant you can have sex with randome people but there is no evidence for that. That could have been a quest that never went anywhere. They probably didn't want to show the UGLY choices you have now. Who knows. But it doesn't mean random sex with NPC's. That was 100% your interpretation.
Mature means naked and language, along with violence. Yes but that could have been a romance option where instead of at River's place you go to your apartment. Bottom line is this did not state ramdom NPC sex as you claim.
OK consequences which is something real. I've previous stated that the open world junk has no consequences outside of pay. So we agree there but I doubt if they meant that. Instead it's the gigs, side quests and main quests that should have consequences. Now you claim that only the mission shown in the 2018 video has choices/consequences. So my job is easy. Point to one or two more quests that do.
First up is I Walk the Line. There are many choices here and consequences just like in the quest The Pickup. You can side with Voodoo Boys, side with Netwatch, sneak through, fight the mini-boss, side with Voodoo Boys and still kill them afterwards. You can kill the animals or leave them in charge. So basically just as many choices on how to do the quest as The Pickup.
Now here is a side quest with many interesting choices to make. Actually it is a string of side quests. It starts out with I Fought the Law where you do some investigating for them. This then leads to Dream On. There are many choices here from not doing it to what you say to Elizabeth to what you say to Jefferson.
In Pisces quest you can agree or not with Maiko. This is an actual interesting choice as there is some interesting consequences. If you don't agree you kill the bosses and usually Maiko. But if you agree you actually get additional work from the bosses. You can even take money and kill any relationship with Judy. Choice yep. Consequences yep.
Now that is three. Do I really have to mention more? I can but your claim was there were none. I just pointed out two so that means you "none" statement is false.
I honestly have no clue where you are going with this. The clip at 7:19 syas "I think it's a really bold statement but if you don't believe me play our witcher games". Yea so? What is the context?
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Consequences. People claim they want them. But do they?
In a quest to find Evelyn you can punch a ripperdoc. It's a choice that is given. Now if you do you lose him as a ripperdoc and lose what he sells. I've read many a post where people got upset about this because he has some good tech that is no longer available.
Just one example where a real consequence results in plenty of complaints.
I think you may lack the knowledge about how writter design a choice.
Not every selection give you is a choice.
Actually, get killed at any fight also a choice, you made it, but does it any meaning?
You won't die because the result is unbalanced.
I can give you many example of fake choice, the point is, to make a choice work, you need to balance the result.
The choice at demo mission is real, because whatever which side you support, you will get its special reward.
Help Meredith you get the chance of ONS and an iconic weapon.
Let Royce alive allowed you get another iconic weapon.
The result is balanced on purpose. Not totally equal but you will get something unique.
And if you hit the ripperdoc at Evelyn mission is typical fake choice, the result is unbalanced so that the choice is meanless.
Judy will happy if V hit the ripperdoc, but she won't break off if V refused.
But V do lose the ripperdoc which sale many important item.
That's the "choice" which writter told you not to chose the wrong way.
Yeah, you're probably right that I'm arguing a different topic, as the way I see it, the package did have much better writing than other quests, but yeah, to me it is the same choice/consequence as all the others, practically nill. I expected more.
And I do agree with you in that comment you made about the ripper doc. I would have no problems if I punch the guy and he refuses to sell to me. (I actually think there's a couple gigs that do this with different vendors) Seems to be a case of some people wanting everything.
Oh, look at the merge part.
IMO, professional, the writter shows that they have the ability to made a world and story which is fill of real choice.
People don't know why the demo is so attractive only judge it by intuition, but they are right. Demo deserve the praise.
The writter of CDPR has proved that they know how to work, they are specialists. But the game finally released are not.
There must be something wrong.
I think you may lack the knowledge about how writter design a choice.
Not every selection give you is a choice.
Actually, get killed at any fight also a choice, you made it, but does it any meaning?
You won't die because the result is unbalanced.
I can give you many example of fake choice, the point is, to make a choice work, you need to balance the result.
The choice at demo mission is real, because whatever which side you support, you will get its special reward.
Help Meredith you get the chance of ONS and an iconic weapon.
Let Royce alive allowed you get another iconic weapon.
The result is balanced on purpose. Not totally equal but you will get something unique.
And if you hit the ripperdoc at Evelyn mission is typical fake choice, the result is unbalanced so that the choice is meanless.
Judy will happy if V hit the ripperdoc, but she won't break off if V refused.
But V do lose the ripperdoc which sale many important item.
That's the "choice" which writter told you not to chose the wrong way.
So your definition of a choice must be the outcomes are equal. I have a choice to rob a bank. I can get killed, get money or get sent to jail. It's still a choice because people make this decision in real life.
Equal outcomes is NOT a requirement for a choice. Is there any authoritative evidence for this hypothesis of yours?
How to achieve all possible outcomes in The Pickup job
www.pcgamesn.com
I can't find reference to an iconic weapon if Royce lives. Plus I always kill him so never experienced it any other way. Which reminds me. If you kill him you can get the iconic weapon AND keep the 10K eddies so they are NOT equal after all. 10K is a lot of money at that stage of the game.
So equal outcomes you say. Well that is what happens in I Walk the Line and Dream On. So please explain why The Package is Ok but these aren't. After all the results are basically identical.
So your definition of a choice must be the outcomes are equal. I have a choice to rob a bank. I can get killed, get money or get sent to jail. It's still a choice because people make this decision in real life.
Equal outcomes is NOT a requirement for a choice. Is there any authoritative evidence for this hypothesis of yours?
How to achieve all possible outcomes in The Pickup job
www.pcgamesn.com
I can't find reference to an iconic weapon if Royce lives. Plus I always kill him so never experienced it any other way. Which reminds me. If you kill him you can get the iconic weapon AND keep the 10K eddies so they are NOT equal after all. 10K is a lot of money at that stage of the game.
So equal outcomes you say. Well that is what happens in I Walk the Line and Dream On. So please explain why The Package is Ok but these aren't. After all the results are basically identical.
It's not the hypothesis. But the axiom of design.
I think I've told you that got killed is a choice but fake.
People sometimes do mad, but If you assume that people always unreasonable, you can do nothing.
Why the game engineer assume player would suicide everytime?
They would not able to finish the first mission. [Edited -- SigilFey]
BTW about Royce, if you save him and both keep Dumdum alive, you will meet them again at SECOND CONFLICT as the page said.
Then you have chance to get a very powerful iconic pistol of Dumdum.
I joined the Cyberpunk movement during my studies in Japan, it was the 1990s. I played a wargame, a "Cyberpunk" role-playing game. I'm 42 but still Rebel woman and Cyberpunk.
When the game came out, I was so happy to finally be able to virtually experience a movement that I love.
and, bang! it was a total defeat. Yes I was angry, but ramidily I started to analyze. How was this possible?
what deeply disappointed me was a wasted desire; the Cyberpunk world has been touched, ridiculed.
I hope for this game, I hope for the bugs, the boring crashes, in short, a Cyberpunk world, although virtual but a dream to my mind; Reality.
Please note we are talking about what was "promised" or shown back in 2018. Neither water physics or even walking was mentioned. You might want something, another game might have it, you might even say it's necessary. None of that matters. The topic is not what should have or should not have been in the game but what was said to be in the game and not.
You might even win this argument in a court yard by your rationale, even for a text only based game.
In the real world, however, people in 2020 have expectations like not having to start your car with a crank, electricity in your apartment and frikkin' water physics in open world games.
These are so fundamental, we do not care if these features are addressed in a promotional video or not.
They are considered for granted anyway, even if sleazy lawyers may be able to get a different ruling at court.
people in 2020 have expectations like not having to start your car with a crank, electricity in your apartment and frikkin' water physics in open world games.
These are so fundamental, we do not care if these features are addressed
Water physics we have in game allow player character to swim and dive that enabled me to ghost certain missions and access certain things located underwater.
Outside of features regarding water physics and water physics interactivity regarding game play / character interaction with environment, how do you define "basic water physics".
You also mention starting car with a crank and access to electricity as real life counterparts of lacking features of game, despite said features not being relevant to game at all. Then continue to address based on this, that there are fundamental lack of game features.
Your attempt to build something here, I don't know what it is, but I have a feeling that what you think you are doing and where you are aiming at, might be quite a bit apart.
It's not the hypothesis. But the axiom of design.
I think I've told you that got killed is a choice but fake.
People sometimes do mad, but If you assume that people always unreasonable, you can do nothing.
Why the game engineer assume player would suicide everytime?
They would not able to finish the first mission.
[...]
BTW about Royce, if you save him and both keep Dumdum alive, you will meet them again at SECOND CONFLICT as the page said.
Then you have chance to get a very powerful iconic pistol of Dumdum.
[Edited -- Sigilfey] I cited another quest that had equal outcomes and even pointed out where The Pickup does not have equal outcomes.
You also made further errors in that the gun is DOOM DOOM not DUM DUM. You have to not kill the NPC named Dum Dum in The Pickup. And you don't get the gun till much later, actually very close to the end, while doing the Second Conflict quest.
Plus you make another error. You have a choice of fighting or sneaking during the Second Conflict quest. So if you sneak you get NOTHING, even if you left Royce alive. So you might not even get theis so called "equal" reward.
So once again please tell me how they are equal, why equality matters, how others quests are not equal and most importantly why does The Pickup meet your criteria but NO other quest does?
CP2077 is just such a shame as it could of been so much better with another year or two in the oven.
The story of this game is cutting corners:
1st person only...only to save time
shorter story...only to save time
lack of/poor AI...not enough time to implement
and the list goes on and on.
I think the original story with the chip being a source of eternal life and the quest to get our hands on it would of been better than the whole Johnny story that felt rushed we ended up with. V is demoted to carrying the main protagonist around NC. As usual you look at the management and in 2018 when Adam came on the scene seems to be where things started going pear shaped. 1st person only announcement, shorter story etc...
Feels a lot like when Bioware moved away from their core RPG fans to try and capture the FPS/looter shooter crowd, it did not go well for them either.
With that rationale it could be defended if they released a text-only game.
You are aware that you are defending a game which does not even allow you to walk on PC and has no water physics, e.g.. *shakes head* There are so many things missing in this product, which should be taken for granted in 2020, which weren't even mentioned in the video.
"This is probably not the same game you’ll see on your screen when we launch"
www.polygon.com
Everything else is a lot of main stream media generate hype to drive clicks, I've watched the videos from CDPR channel prior to release and all of the things they talk about are in the game.
Now for poor mechanics, there's no argument, some of them are broken and/or imbalanced and I believe they're going to fix that, expecting a new game is out of the question.
This is not an open world sandbox game it was never advertised as that, it was advertised as a next-gen immersive (which is highly subjective since I find no problems with being immersed when stuff don't bug out) story driven open world where you play the role of the mercenary V.
General reminder to keep the discussion on the game. If you're not willing to listen to counter-arguments, then don't post an argument. Do not start making personal judgements of others' intelligence.
If it happens, we've got tons of marshmallow in ammunition tins I can't even lift by myself...just waiting to be sprayed...
it was advertised as a next-gen immersive (which is highly subjective since I find no problems with being immersed when stuff don't bug out) story driven open world where you play the role of the mercenary V.
I won't discuss how immersive the game is, it's highly subjective and I personally can get immersed in it quite easily too.
But.
Where is the next-gen part?
Is a game looking pretty the only thing required for a game to be "next-gen"? I think you'll be hard pressed to find someone who thinks so and it would be a very small minority.
What is CP2077 doing that makes it a next-gen game?
- The gunplay, while IMO very good, is nothing we haven't seen before.
- The driving? Been done better.
- The AI? Been done better too.
- Branching storylines? Nothing we haven't seen before, from CDPR too.
- World interactivity is non-existent.
- Open world activities? Limited to "go to X, kill y". Been done better before.
- RPG (stats, character building, etc) mechanics? Nothing to write home about, it's been done before.
- Loot mechanics? Nothing that wasn't done before and better.
- User Interface? Serviceable but we've seen better.
- Character customization is far below some of the better character creators we've seen in recent years.
- Water physics? Non-existent.
- World physics? The hitboxes are so messed up, it's a problem. Been done better.
- Gun customization? Done far better before
- Side quests vary greatly in quality.
I could keep going if I truly wanted to but you get the idea.
The only things CP2077 has to distinguish it from other games are it's pretty graphics, beautifully designed city and it's story (which is very controversial).
What about that, exactly, screams next gen to you?
I won't discuss how immersive the game is, it's highly subjective and I personally can get immersed in it quite easily too.
But.
Where is the next-gen part?
Is a game looking pretty the only thing required for a game to be "next-gen"? I think you'll be hard pressed to find someone who thinks so and it would be a very small minority.
What is CP2077 doing that makes it a next-gen game?
- The gunplay, while IMO very good, is nothing we haven't seen before.
- The driving? Been done better.
- The AI? Been done better too.
- Branching storylines? Nothing we haven't seen before, from CDPR too.
- World interactivity is non-existent.
- Open world activities? Limited to "go to X, kill y". Been done better before.
- RPG (stats, character building, etc) mechanics? Nothing to write home about, it's been done before.
- Loot mechanics? Nothing that wasn't done before and better.
- User Interface? Serviceable but we've seen better.
- Character customization is far below some of the better character creators we've seen in recent years.
- Water physics? Non-existent.
- World physics? The hitboxes are so messed up, it's a problem. Been done better.
- Gun customization? Done far better before
I could keep going if I truly wanted to but you get the idea.
The only things CP2077 has to distinguish it from other games are it's pretty graphics, beautifully designed city and it's story (which is very controversial).
What about that, exactly, screams next gen to you?
I'm curious as to what makes a ''next-gen'' game a ''next-gen'' game to you.
To me if we take the literal interpretation of the term, it's literally part of a next-gen lineup of videogames using next-gen tech architecture and technology.
In a more subjective term, the scale of the city is enormous, the way everything looks makes it seem believable in a way I've never seen before, that's part of the ''next-gen open world'' statement, I don't just mean the graphics but the aspect-ratio (?) of objects, they seem big somehow.
As for the mechanics, well then there's hardly any next-gen games out there since everything is an iteration of everything else.
But I'd add this:
And this:
I believe the thing that makes it next-gen to me personally is definitely the characters and they way they realistically portray body language (small ticks when they're nervous or emotional distress or angry etc.) and facial expressions just simply blow me away.
All that added to the fact that every localization has it's own facial animation behind it is absolutely staggering.
Also an overlooked fact is that the game world remembers the state of individual objects far beyond their use (starts at 15 minutes in the video)
I agree, the mechanics are lack-luster in a lot of places, but then again personally as a fan of Gothic, Elex, S.T.A.L.K.E.R. I can overlook that if the game delivers on other fronts (atmosphere, story, characters, gameplay).
So I suppose since there's no metric measurement of what makes anything next-gen I'll just leave it at, it's a sales pitch for anything ever that's being released at any given time...
For me there are 2 main next-gen features of this game that everyone seems to overlook, which are at the same time a central point of CDPR's narrative experience:
1. Absolute lack of loading screens - everything in the game is seamless and nothing takes you out of the experience, except the inventory/character screen. The streaming technology behind it - although not perfect, which is visible in texture streaming problems for example - is definitely an impressive, next gen feature.
2. Dialogue & "cinematic scenes" system - again, this builds on point number 1 - everything happens seamlessly, in real time, there are no cutscenes or weird "talking heads" dialogues. It also includes absolutely top notch character animation system - again, all in engine - and facial expression(Jackie blink FTW) + lip sync tech.
I'm curious as to what makes a ''next-gen'' game a ''next-gen'' game to you.
To me if we take the literal interpretation of the term, it's literally part of a next-gen lineup of videogames using next-gen tech architecture and technology.
In a more subjective term, the scale of the city is enormous, the way everything looks makes it seem believable in a way I've never seen before, that's part of the ''next-gen open world'' statement, I don't just mean the graphics but the aspect-ratio (?) of objects, they seem big somehow.
As for the mechanics, well then there's hardly any next-gen games out there since everything is an iteration of everything else.
But I'd add this:
And this:
I believe the thing that makes it next-gen to me personally is definitely the characters and they way they realistically portray body language (small ticks when they're nervous or emotional distress or angry etc.) and facial expressions just simply blow me away.
All that added to the fact that every localization has it's own facial animation behind it is absolutely staggering.
Also an overlooked fact is that the game world remembers the state of individual objects far beyond their use (starts at 15 minutes in the video)
I agree, the mechanics are lack-luster in a lot of places, but then again personally as a fan of Gothic, Elex, S.T.A.L.K.E.R. I can overlook that if the game delivers on other fronts (atmosphere, story, characters, gameplay).
So I suppose since there's no metric measurement of what makes anything next-gen I'll just leave it at, it's a sales pitch for anything ever that's being released at any given time...
Yet, all these things are all graphics. No one is debating that the game looks gorgeous. It looks amazing. Are the game's graphics next-gen level? You betcha. Is it enough to make the game as a whole a next-gen game? I'd argue that it's not.
The fact the game can remember objects is also completely irrelevant when it can't remember which car was behind you a second ago.
I'm not sure where you're getting that literal definition of the term since it's never been clearly defined. I'm sure you'd have a hard time finding someone who agrees with that definition. By that definition I could release a 16 bit game on a PS5 and call it a next-gen game.
Personally, I'd be willing to call it a next-gen had they managed to make all these mechanics and systems work at least on the same level (or close to) of what was previously done AND then manage to bring them all together in a cohesive, coherent and fun to play package. It's just never been done. It's something new.
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