What's up with the awful difficulty design now?

[SpookyFX]

The RNG falls a little short here. The damage variance only matters if it prompts spur of the moment changes in approach. This generally doesn't happen when wild swings capable of causing a death are involved. For shooter style combat in particular. In those cases even when an initial hit is at the low end the player knows a subsequent hit at the high end may kill them. The approach to block LoS and recover remains unchanged.

If the variance goes the other way and isn't important then it's pointless. A build setup to shrug off hits is closer to this state. The player doesn't pay attention to the RNG because it takes roughly 4+ hits to kill them. Alternatively, various overpowered abilties are active/available to render it moot. I'd wager exactly 0 people think "I have to reduce my exposure to return fire by 100ms if any of the 4 incoming hits crit" before poking their head out.

Here is where we get to what's on paper vs how it plays out in practice. The RNG would be more realistic vs a simple system without it. It's completely academic if the potential advantages aren't realized in the gameplay.

I may need to sober up and read this again, but I did not understand any of that (see above) which you just said.

Anyway I will let others step in on this thread as I am not all that passionate on this subject except to encourage all PC game DEV to do what they have always done for over 25 years now (and the table top war games for many decades or more) that is to include RNG in their combat formulas.

 

[starrzz]

Ofc a degree of RNG should be implemented in any RPG mechanics. But not like THIS. Lvl 15, 200+ health, max armor at this point, and sometimes 2 bullets from an SMG from the same enemy do 20-30 dmg, sometimes two-shot for 200+dmg. Sometimes you rambo though 5 guys carefree with nary a scratch. Sometimes you get clipped before it's humanly possible to react, from a guy spraying blind from cover 50m away, while yourself merely sticking an eye out of cover for a fraction of a second.

Mechanics and the whole gameplay design is still a total mess.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

I may need to sober up and read this again, but I did not understand any of that (see above) which you just said.

I'm saying the variance on damage in this game doesn't do a good job providing any of the advantages offered by randomization.

Anyway I will let others step in on this thread as I am not all that passionate on this subject except to encourage all PC game DEV to do what they have always done for over 25 years now (and the table top war games for many decades or more) that is to include RNG in their combat formulas.

It is no doubt a common practice to include variance. What sounds good on paper may not translate to the gameplay at all or nearly as well. The concept is the concept. The implementation is the implementation. IMO, the implementation here isn't very good. It's the same deal with the difficulty sliders.

 

[R001c]

SO I rolled a Rifleman. Just Me and an AR and a machine gun for up close and personal work. I went looking for this 'random death'. I didn't overly prepare for a fight other than picking an approach that gave the best sight lines. I used cover sparingly. I used way less stealth and hacks very sparingly.

I couldn't find it. I started messing about a bit to give the enemy time to hit me. No one shot deaths! Even the Snipers did not one shot me. At lvl 23 She has 280 HP. I am currently considering the cyberware for stopping any kind of death once but I'm not sure its not a waste of a slot.

Unless I ignored my Level and picked a fight where I shouldn't. Then It was death on a stick. Still one shot deaths were very rare and I had to encourage it by being a bit daft about where I stood or by really rushing in blind. So I am lost trying to understand the argument as it applies to this game because, honestly, its like some people are playing a different game than I am? or are they just ignoring or unable to recognise the difficulty of the fight. maybe CDPR need to go through the game and make fights difficulty more apparent.

In some ways, I can see how players get dragged into fights because the questline drags you to places you may not be ready for yet. This is not immediately obvious since all the main quest specific combats are matched to your current level(or just too easy I'm not totally sure either way). I have NEVER had any trouble with these fights apart from the bosses who, love it or hate it, are meant to be hard. BUT, the streets stuff is not levelled to you. It's down to you to decide if you can win the fight or not. If we were talking about normal difficulty this would be a different thread but we are talking about a difficulty put there for people who are very familiar with the game. If you Trawl back thru this thread you will find someone(sorry I forget who) posted the levels of each area.

There is a market for hack and slash FPSs, I enjoy them myself on occasion, but that's not the market Cyberpunk was aimed at. The combat in this game could use improvement but 1.5 was a step in the right direction. The combat went from being a snooze fest to actually being difficult in places. Even at level 23 that immortal feeling is beginning to creep up on me.

Maybe if people put some context in their posts like build, hit points, level, where you were and what you were doing at the time we could get to the bottom of this?

 

[Hayte]

Maybe if people put some context in their posts like build, hit points, level, where you were and what you were doing at the time we could get to the bottom of this?

I don't think many people in this thread want to be helped, kinda like the OP. Its the reason why this thread keeps going round and round in circles.

 

[SigilFey]

This is the thing I don't understand. If you neglect hp/mitigation/armour and build for stealth, then get detected causing you to take fire and die, then the problem is...you are playing a stealth build thats getting detected? How much hp do you have and what level are you?

I don't care if the character has 100 HP or 5,000 HP. I doesn't matter if the character is built to be a tank with the ability to regenerate health every 5 seconds, or if they're a stealth build armed only with a knife. It doesn't make one whit of difference if a character is Level 1 dressed in rags, or if they're Level 30 with legendary gear.

Player characters should never be killed based on RNG without the player having a chance to react.

This is a totally separate consideration than a game like Elden Ring, in which the player is meant to die instantaneously to things, testing their timing and memory over subsequent attempts in order to 100% avoid that situation. It's a totally separate consideration for a game like ArmA, in which the point is to be a realistic simulation of combat scenarios.

But like every other player in the game, by the time I was Level 30+, I didn't have a mere handful of HP, I had a lot. And it would still happen. Plus, I'll say again, I did not have any personal problem with it. I definitely rolled my eyes when it happened, but I was able to figure things out relatively quickly each time. It was still quite silly, IMO, but it only happened rarely. Definitely not enough to ruin my own, personal experience with the game.

I'm not addressing this topic because it was a problem for me. I'm addressing the topic because it is very easy for me to objectively support the OP's post and understand the complete validity of the complaint.

If it happens, it's a silly, trifling, utterly frustrating result that robs the player of progress with no chance for them to react. If it happens too much, it can and will destroy any sense of progression and enjoyment. Not really caring about it personally (for CP2077) does not negate the validity of the rationale. Neither does saying, "The problem is you need to deal with it until you're higher level. Or just make sure you don't engage in certain playstyles."

If a game offers a style of play, it should be as valid an approach as any other. No RPG is going to do well if only Warriors and Rangers can take multiple hits; all the other classes can be one-shot, so you need to play as a Warrior/Ranger if you don't want to constantly reload. It's a very simple concept: if I force you to randomly lose, without you being able to do something to counter it, that is the sheer definition of a "cheap shot". A "sucker punch". The player is "blindsided".

There's no challenge or sportsmanship in that sort of scenario. That's not a "game". It's a lottery.

I am curious, if the game showed you how and who killed you would that be good enough for you? That kind of thing can be done in games several do that already.

I did also want to mention that using DICE for damage and other parts of the game did not start with D&D. D&D was adapted from table top war games (that use dice) that go back more than 100s of years. Some speculated such war games go back even to 3100–2400 BC. Random crap happens this is why they still use some RNG even in today's combat simulators for the military.

Again I agree it should maybe not be in Esports where I get the contestants may want a competition void of luck (although random does not seem to bother pro poker players) but I do want SOME RNG to some degree in my free time for fun games because I like my games to be unpredictable so it feels more like the RL combat I am use to. As long as the RNG is balanced and fairly applied to the player and NPC.

I also realize that I have no problem reloading as long as the save game polacy is reasonable. That may make it harder for me to empathise with players that find it irritating. I get that is something players today may not be so comfortable with especially if it is shocking them out of the immersion today's games excel at.

That's what I'm arguing. It shouldn't ever come out of nowhere. There should always be some indication of what the game is about to throw at you. A challenge -- just like in PnP! -- where the game will present the player with a scenario, and the player will have to decide how best to handle that scenario based upon the strengths and weakness of their character.

When a player in a video game simply falls over dead, that's the same as a GM handling a PnP session like this:


GM: "Okay, fighter, you're up first. What do you do?"

Fighter: "Alright, I'll raise my shield and advance through the door slowly."

GM: (Rolls dice.) Nope. You're killed.

Fighter: "What?"

GM: "I said you're killed. You died."

Fighter: "What happened?"

GM: "Well...that's kind of hard to know when you're already dead. That wouldn't be realistic."

Fighter: "Realistic? It's a game...I'm only imagining it to begin with. Why can't I know what killed me."

GM: "Those are the rules. What? All RPGs are like this. The dice came up bad, and now you're dead. Combat in this game is really dangerous."

Fighter: "So, what was I supposed to do?"

GM: "You need to learn to be more careful."

Fighter: "I was walking through the door slowly, with my shield raised, specifically looking for threats."

GM: "Maybe, but obviously that wasn't good enough."

Fighter: "How am I supposed to figure out what to do if even noticing it is based on a dice roll?"

GM: "I don't get what your problem is. Do you understand how RPGs work? Whenever you want to do something, you have to roll the dice to see if it works or not. If the dice don't come up in your favor, that's just how it goes."

Fighter: "So, now, my character is just dead -- for no apparent reason -- and what now?"

GM: "How about you try again?"

Fighter: "Okay, fine. I raise the shield and look as carefully as I can through the doorway, checking for absolutely anything that might look dangerous."

GM: (Rolls dice.) "Sorry, you die."

Fighter: "Are you joking? What happened?"

GM: (Laughing.) "You've got to be kidding, we just talked about this."

Fighter: "This is utterly stupid. What does killing me instantly like this do for the game, the story, or the campaign?"

GM: (Shrugs.) "This is what RPGs are all about. The other stuff doesn't matter right now. Right now, you're in a combat situation, so it's all about dice rolls."

Fighter: "This is ridiculous. Is there anything that I can do to ensure I don't die immediately going through that door."

GM: "You need to either be stronger, or you need figure out what's killing you."

Fighter: "How can I do either if I'm just killed instantly, and you won't tell me what's happening?"

GM: "That's the game. I don't know what to tell you. You wanna try again?"

Fighter: "Fine, last time."

GM: "Whatever. You're choice."

Fighter: (Sighs.) "Same as before, since I have no idea what the hell is happening. I go the door, shield raised."

GM: (Rolls dice.) "Oof -- you get hit with an arrow from directly above you. There's an archer up there on a balcony covering the door. Lose 45 HP."

Fighter: "Are you kidding!? How was I supposed to figure that out?"

GM: "You need to pay attention and scout your surroundings first."

Fighter: "That's exactly what I was doing. Wouldn't it make more sense to just drop some hints to let me know that the archer is there?"

GM: (Laughing again.) I did let you know he was there!

Fighter: "No, you just killed me two times out of nowhere, and there was no indication of anyone being there. The only reason I know about it now is because I was simply lucky enough to live through the attack. What the heck is a situation like this even for? It's just wasting my time!"

GM: "Bro, this is what RPGs are. This is how they work. You need to win dice rolls in order to win fights. I don't know what you expect me to tell you."

Fighter: "Let's just move on with it. I'll use a throwing knife to attack the archer." (Rolls dice.) "Oh, for the love of...it missed."

GM: (Rolls dice.) "Archer hits for 70 damage. You die."

Fighter: "Ugh. Again? Friggin...I'll go again, I guess?"

GM: "If you want."

Fighter: "I'll go through the door, shield over my head, and I'll get the throwing knife ready now."

GM: (Rolls dice.) Nope. The archer gets you. You died.

Fighter: "I'm done." (Gets up to leave.)

GM: "What? Come on! You just need to improve your character and roll better!"


^ That is what a video game does if it one-shots your character based on RNG. It's just stalling progress and adding needless frustration. If RNG is going to be used, then it needs to be balanced in such a way that the player has a pathway forward. If the player dies, they should understand what happened and what they can do to get by it. If it all comes down to simple RNG, then it's simply breaking up the pacing of the game, and wasting the player's time.

 

[SigilFey]

SO I rolled a Rifleman. Just Me and an AR and a machine gun for up close and personal work. I went looking for this 'random death'. I didn't overly prepare for a fight other than picking an approach that gave the best sight lines. I used cover sparingly. I used way less stealth and hacks very sparingly.

I couldn't find it. I started messing about a bit to give the enemy time to hit me. No one shot deaths! Even the Snipers did not one shot me. At lvl 23 She has 280 HP. I am currently considering the cyberware for stopping any kind of death once but I'm not sure its not a waste of a slot.

Unless I ignored my Level and picked a fight where I shouldn't. Then It was death on a stick. Still one shot deaths were very rare and I had to encourage it by being a bit daft about where I stood or by really rushing in blind. So I am lost trying to understand the argument as it applies to this game because, honestly, its like some people are playing a different game than I am? or are they just ignoring or unable to recognise the difficulty of the fight. maybe CDPR need to go through the game and make fights difficulty more apparent.

In some ways, I can see how players get dragged into fights because the questline drags you to places you may not be ready for yet. This is not immediately obvious since all the main quest specific combats are matched to your current level(or just too easy I'm not totally sure either way). I have NEVER had any trouble with these fights apart from the bosses who, love it or hate it, are meant to be hard. BUT, the streets stuff is not levelled to you. It's down to you to decide if you can win the fight or not. If we were talking about normal difficulty this would be a different thread but we are talking about a difficulty put there for people who are very familiar with the game. If you Trawl back thru this thread you will find someone(sorry I forget who) posted the levels of each area.

There is a market for hack and slash FPSs, I enjoy them myself on occasion, but that's not the market Cyberpunk was aimed at. The combat in this game could use improvement but 1.5 was a step in the right direction. The combat went from being a snooze fest to actually being difficult in places. Even at level 23 that immortal feeling is beginning to creep up on me.

Maybe if people put some context in their posts like build, hit points, level, where you were and what you were doing at the time we could get to the bottom of this?

Very good, if so! As stated, I only encountered it in rare, odd spots, and it never held me back for long. With the changes made to the combat overall since release, hopefully it will become even more rare, or just no longer a thing. I'm actually hoping the next run will be significantly more difficult overall. I liked the way Hard worked, but after about Level 10 or so, I never really felt like I was under serious threat. As I may have mentioned, I hardly ever used healing stims during my playthrough.

 

[SpookyFX]

I don't care if the character has 100 HP or 5,000 HP. I doesn't matter if the character is built to be a tank with the ability to regenerate health every 5 seconds, or if they're a stealth build armed only with a knife. It doesn't make one whit of difference if a character is Level 1 dressed in rags, or if they're Level 30 with legendary gear.

Player characters should never be killed based on RNG without the player having a chance to react.

This is a totally separate consideration than a game like Elden Ring, in which the player is meant to die instantaneously to things, testing their timing and memory over subsequent attempts in order to 100% avoid that situation. It's a totally separate consideration for a game like ArmA, in which the point is to be a realistic simulation of combat scenarios.

But like every other player in the game, by the time I was Level 30+, I didn't have a mere handful of HP, I had a lot. And it would still happen. Plus, I'll say again, I did not have any personal problem with it. I definitely rolled my eyes when it happened, but I was able to figure things out relatively quickly each time. It was still quite silly, IMO, but it only happened rarely. Definitely not enough to ruin my own, personal experience with the game.

I'm not addressing this topic because it was a problem for me. I'm addressing the topic because it is very easy for me to objectively support the OP's post and understand the complete validity of the complaint.

If it happens, it's a silly, trifling, utterly frustrating result that robs the player of progress with no chance for them to react. If it happens too much, it can and will destroy any sense of progression and enjoyment. Not really caring about it personally (for CP2077) does not negate the validity of the rationale. Neither does saying, "The problem is you need to deal with it until you're higher level. Or just make sure you don't engage in certain playstyles."

If a game offers a style of play, it should be as valid an approach as any other. No RPG is going to do well if only Warriors and Rangers can take multiple hits; all the other classes can be one-shot, so you need to play as a Warrior/Ranger if you don't want to constantly reload. It's a very simple concept: if I force you to randomly lose, without you being able to do something to counter it, that is the sheer definition of a "cheap shot". A "sucker punch". The player is "blindsided".

There's no challenge or sportsmanship in that sort of scenario. That's not a "game". It's a lottery.



That's what I'm arguing. It shouldn't ever come out of nowhere. There should always be some indication of what the game is about to throw at you. A challenge -- just like in PnP! -- where the game will present the player with a scenario, and the player will have to decide how best to handle that scenario based upon the strengths and weakness of their character.

When a player in a video game simply falls over dead, that's the same as a GM handling a PnP session like this:


GM: "Okay, fighter, you're up first. What do you do?"

Fighter: "Alright, I'll raise my shield and advance through the door slowly."

GM: (Rolls dice.) Nope. You're killed.

Fighter: "What?"

GM: "I said you're killed. You died."

Fighter: "What happened?"

GM: "Well...that's kind of hard to know when you're already dead. That wouldn't be realistic."

Fighter: "Realistic? It's a game...I'm only imagining it to begin with. Why can't I know what killed me."

GM: "Those are the rules. What? All RPGs are like this. The dice came up bad, and now you're dead. Combat in this game is really dangerous."

Fighter: "So, what was I supposed to do?"

GM: "You need to learn to be more careful."

Fighter: "I was walking through the door slowly, with my shield raised, specifically looking for threats."

GM: "Maybe, but obviously that wasn't good enough."

Fighter: "How am I supposed to figure out what to do if even noticing it is based on a dice roll?"

GM: "I don't get what your problem is. Do you understand how RPGs work? Whenever you want to do something, you have to roll the dice to see if it works or not. If the dice don't come up in your favor, that's just how it goes."

Fighter: "So, now, my character is just dead -- for no apparent reason -- and what now?"

GM: "How about you try again?"

Fighter: "Okay, fine. I raise the shield and look as carefully as I can through the doorway, checking for absolutely anything that might look dangerous."

GM: (Rolls dice.) "Sorry, you die."

Fighter: "Are you joking? What happened?"

GM: (Laughing.) "You've got to be kidding, we just talked about this."

Fighter: "This is utterly stupid. What does killing me instantly like this do for the game, the story, or the campaign?"

GM: (Shrugs.) "This is what RPGs are all about. The other stuff doesn't matter right now. Right now, you're in a combat situation, so it's all about dice rolls."

Fighter: "This is ridiculous. Is there anything that I can do to ensure I don't die immediately going through that door."

GM: "You need to either be stronger, or you need figure out what's killing you."

Fighter: "How can I do either if I'm just killed instantly, and you won't tell me what's happening?"

GM: "That's the game. I don't know what to tell you. You wanna try again?"

Fighter: "Fine, last time."

GM: "Whatever. You're choice."

Fighter: (Sighs.) "Same as before, since I have no idea what the hell is happening. I go the door, shield raised."

GM: (Rolls dice.) "Oof -- you get hit with an arrow from directly above you. There's an archer up there on a balcony covering the door. Lose 45 HP."

Fighter: "Are you kidding!? How was I supposed to figure that out?"

GM: "You need to pay attention and scout your surroundings first."

Fighter: "That's exactly what I was doing. Wouldn't it make more sense to just drop some hints to let me know that the archer is there?"

GM: (Laughing again.) I did let you know he was there!

Fighter: "No, you just killed me two times out of nowhere, and there was no indication of anyone being there. The only reason I know about it now is because I was simply lucky enough to live through the attack. What the heck is a situation like this even for? It's just wasting my time!"

GM: "Bro, this is what RPGs are. This is how they work. You need to win dice rolls in order to win fights. I don't know what you expect me to tell you."

Fighter: "Let's just move on with it. I'll use a throwing knife to attack the archer." (Rolls dice.) "Oh, for the love of...it missed."

GM: (Rolls dice.) "Archer hits for 70 damage. You die."

Fighter: "Ugh. Again? Friggin...I'll go again, I guess?"

GM: "If you want."

Fighter: "I'll go through the door, shield over my head, and I'll get the throwing knife ready now."

GM: (Rolls dice.) Nope. The archer gets you. You died.

Fighter: "I'm done." (Gets up to leave.)

GM: "What? Come on! You just need to improve your character and roll better!"


^ That is what a video game does if it one-shots your character based on RNG. It's just stalling progress and adding needless frustration. If RNG is going to be used, then it needs to be balanced in such a way that the player has a pathway forward. If the player dies, they should understand what happened and what they can do to get by it. If it all comes down to simple RNG, then it's simply breaking up the pacing of the game, and wasting the player's time.

ummm... so that is a yes? (I.E. if the game shows the player how and who killed them that would also solve the issues for "us".)

Edit: I 100% agree that it would be nice if snipers had a tell such as in half life where you could see their red laser searching for targets. Or a flash of light that is presumably light reflecting off their scope as is seen in other FPS. I am not as much a fan of the first shot misses but warns you mechanic but that would probably not be too hard to do in a mod for this game.

Dam I wish the 1.5 game would not crash on launch. All this talk makes me want to play with the new stuff. I just tried some more "fix" such as turning off the xbox bar (WTF is that on by default MS ? ) and loaded in the 32 bit version of c++ (I already had the 64 but some read I found advised both to be installed). However I still do not have the heart to "upgrade" back to 1.5 and try it. I just got my game working again by downgrading it to befor 1.5.

 

[SigilFey]

ummm... so that is a yes? (I.E. if the game shows the player how and who killed them that would also solve the issues for "us".)

Edit: I 100% agree that it would be nice if snipers had a tell such as in half life where you could see their red laser searching for targets. Or a flash of light that is presumably light reflecting off their scope as is seen in other FPS. I am not as much a fan of the first shot misses but warns you mechanic but that would probably not be too hard to do in a mod for this game.

Dam I wish the 1.5 game would not crash on launch. All this talk makes me want to play with the new stuff. I just tried some more "fix" such as turning off the xbox bar (WTF is that on by default MS ? ) and loaded in the 32 bit version of c++ (I already had the 64 but some read I found advised both to be installed). However I still do not have the heart to "upgrade" back to 1.5 and try it. I just got my game working again by downgrading it to befor 1.5.

Not "yes" if I just die over and over to RNG. I mean, a camera that shows me an "instant replay" of my character dying to completely random RNG doesn't help. Being placed against an enemy by the game when it's simply possible for the enemy to kill me in two hits, even though I'll need to hit them 5 or more times, and there's no way around it, is equally dumb.

Conversely, if the game is trying to let me know that I'm not ready for this or that area, that's fine. In TW3, for example, If I charge against an enemy whose name is in red and there's a little skull icon next to them...I've been warned! Yes, being one-shot in that situation is the game saying: "No, seriously, player. You're not meant to be doing this yet. Red letters! Skull icon!"

But that's not what happened in the situations I've described. We're talking about level-accurate missions, common enemies, and scenarios that were just out-of-balance. I mean, like I've mentioned before -- c'mon -- yeah -- stuff like that is going to happen. It's a gigantic game.

But --

We can work in failsafes to prevent it relatively easily. Just a simple rule that means players can never go all the way from full health to zero in a single attack. Or other aspects that prevent the RNG from directly overruling and overwriting player agency. RNG is meant to add excitement and unexpected outcomes -- not provide "game-over" scenarios.

_______________


As for the crashing, CP2077 works fine for me, but I have had some common crashing with a couple of other titles. I cleared up both by disabling cloud saving. That might be worth a shot.

For C++ and Visual Studio -- be sure you have both the x86 and the x64 versions of each edition. That's necessary for games to have all kibbles they may want to chew while running Windows 64-bit. MS Redistributables being incomplete or corrupt can be the cause of a lot of crashes.

(And I'm totally with you about Microsoft's invasiveness with Xbox bar, trying to force Internet Explorer / Bing, etc. It's pretty annoying to have to convince the computer, "No, thank you," only to have it pester you again with almost every Windows update.)

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Just a simple rule that means players can never go all the way from full health to zero in a single attack.

I'm against that, because it could happen even by removing all type of "RNG" in the game.
(Like RNG on weapon damages which is not really important anyway in Cyberpunk in my opinion and can be "removed")

My today's death by a single shoot :
Some infos (which could explain why I died...) :
I'm level 44, about 380HP, less than 1K armor. An event with enemies in the "highest level" area (so around level 30-34). So I'm at the very minimum, 10 levels above enemies.

I "jump" in this event in "open combat" (former "NCPD Star" event), full of confidence with my knife... A valentinos one shoot me with an Overture who deal around 400-450 damages at the very minimum.

So obviously, I die directly because :
- My "weak" build.
- An enemy with a very powerful weapon (high damage per hit).
- My mistake and my excess of confidence.
That's all...

It's "fun" for me. At least, it feel more "dangerous". Because, anyway, if I don't die in one bullet, generally, I don't die at all...*
"Fun", at least when you don't encounter the bug which make enemies can "see" you and attack you from far, through walls and without any warning (no detection bar, cyberwares inactive,...)

* it would make the game damn easy even in very hard**. For example, after that you get hit the first time (and indeed, didn't die), you simply spam health items and it's fine.

** edit : In the current state of the game. Because health items can instantly restore 40/60/80% of HP. If only Bounce Back were available (instantly restore 15/20/25% HP and an additional 3/4/6 HP per second for 30 seconds), I could agree more

 

[SigilFey]

My today's death by a single shoot :
Some infos (which could explain why I died...) :
I'm level 44, about 380HP, less than 1K armor. An event with enemies in the "highest level" area (so around level 30-34). So I'm at the very minimum, 10 levels above enemies.

I adress this just above, actually. You're significantly under-leveled for that area, definitely. Great risk. One-shot deaths possible. And the game specifically lets you know when you're facing enemies that out-class your character. Fair enough.

And again, I'm talking about being level 25, going into an area that's level 15-20, and getting vaporized instantaneously from behind by some random grunt. Not because I'm under-leveled, but because that NPC happened to get a lucky crit with a shotgun or something. (Most of the scenarios I experienced, it was actually sniper rifles or assault rifles that were the main offenders.)

It's "fun" for me. At least, it feel more "dangerous". Because, anyway, if I don't die in one bullet, generally, I don't die at all...
"Fun", at least when you don't encounter the bug which make enemies can "see" you and attack you from far, through walls and without any warning (no detection bar, cyberwares inactive,...)

Yeah, me, too! I do the same thing with TW3. On my present run, I did one of the fiend quests in Skellige at around 8 levels below. I knew it was pushing it, and the sucker could easily one-shot or two-shot me. I just wanted to finish it while I was in the area. Took a few tries, even though I knew the fight.

The issue is when the player is not expecting it, and there's no sign. Or they're doing something they should be able to do, and it's happening anyway. If I'm in an area that's at my level -- nothing is going to one-shot me. The challenge very much should be balanced. If it's not...then that's a balancing issue.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I adress this just above, actually. You're significantly under-leveled for that area, definitely. Great risk. One-shot deaths possible. And the game specifically lets you know when you're facing enemies that out-class your character. Fair enough.

And again, I'm talking about being level 25, going into an area that's level 15-20, and getting vaporized instantaneously from behind by some random grunt. Not because I'm under-leveled, but because that NPC happened to get a lucky crit with a shotgun or something. (Most of the scenarios I experienced, it was actually sniper rifles or assault rifles that were the main offenders.)

I was not "under-leveled" at all, I'm level 44 in a level 34 area
In this area like in the whole map when you reach the level 34, enemies threath are always in "yellow", so meaning "average threath" (if not "grey" > "low or very low threath")
At level 50, I'll have at max 420-450 HP at the very maximum, but not much more (I never invest any point in BODY attribute). So the result at level 50, would be the same (this dude with his Overture which would be slightly more powerful, would kill me in one shoot too).

At least, I can't say it for sure (if someone really know it, I'll be happy), if enemies can deal crit damages. For me, all the NPC "RNG" only concern weapons damages RNG (min-max damages) and if they deal a headshot, bodyshot or "limbshot".

Yeah, me, too! I do the same thing with TW3. On my present run, I did one of the fiend quests in Skellige at around 8 levels below. I knew it was pushing it, and the sucker could easily one-shot or two-shot me. I just wanted to finish it while I was in the area. Took a few tries, even though I knew the fight.

The issue is when the player is not expecting it, and there's no sign. Or they're doing something they should be able to do, and it's happening anyway. If I'm in an area that's at my level -- nothing is going to one-shot me. The challenge very much should be balanced. If it's not...then that's a balancing issue.

In all the builds that I "tried", if I invested at minimum in BODY attribute (let's say 12), boosted my health (by using Perks/Cyberwares), stayed in areas at my level, it was "very hard" to die (in very hard difficulty, it seem weird^^).
Except with few enemy types, like snipers if I let them aim (and stay stupidily in their line of sight^^) and those with Grad sniper rifles which are the deadliest weapons in the game (even with more than 1.2K health you can die in one shot).

Now in 1.5 (the bugis fixed, at least never happen to me in 1.5 for me), you always have the little "detection" sound, the icon above emeny's head and most important, the timer (at the very minimum if you don't have any Cyberwares like Synaptic Accelerator), That's let you "time" to do something and know where is the enemy who try to spot you. So even if a sniper start to "spot" you from very far, you can't miss him (you know where he is and have a bit of time to react).
But if you are already in a combat, a sniper could kill you with a single shot with no warning, nothing changed (but in combat, it's already a "warning" situation, so it doesn't count in my opinion^^).

At the right time (just for example about the sound, icon and timer) :

Spoiler

But I'm quite confident that if you play the game again in 1.5 (in hard or very hard), you should notice the changes. You should probably die more often than before, maybe even more often with a single shoot, but at least it should be no longer out of nowhere

 

[Hayte]

I was not "under-leveled" at all, I'm level 44 in a level 34 area
In this area like in the whole map when you reach the level 34, enemies threath are always in "yellow", so meaning "average threath" (if not "grey" > "low or very low threath")
At level 50, I'll have at max 420-450 HP at the very maximum, but not much more (I never invest any point in BODY attribute). So the result at level 50, would be the same (this dude with his Overture which would be slightly more powerful, would kill me in one shoot too).

You can pick up the common version of Synaptic Signal Optimiser from Instant Implants in Kabuki. Gives +20% more hp for 3200 eddies and has no body requirement.

Use Health Booster (consumable). They give +20% more hp for 30 minutes (!) and you can buy them at Medpoints. They cost 1800 eddies. I re-up at the Corpo Plaza/Ring Road medpoint.

You also get another 5% hp for 450 seconds from eating food.

This should get you to 559 hp at level 50 with 3 body.

Now in 1.5 (the bugis fixed, at least never happen to me in 1.5 for me), you always have the little "detection" sound, the icon above emeny's head and most important, the timer (at the very minimum if you don't have any Cyberwares like Synaptic Accelerator), That's let you "time" to do something and know where is the enemy who try to spot you. So even if a sniper start to "spot" you from very far, you can't miss him (you know where he is and have a bit of time to react).
But if you are already in a combat, a sniper could kill you with a single shot with no warning, nothing changed (but in combat, it's already a "warning" situation, so it doesn't count in my opinion^^).

At the right time (just for example about the sound, icon and timer) :

Spoiler

But I'm quite confident that if you play the game again in 1.5 (in hard or very hard), you should notice the changes. You should probably die more often than before, maybe even more often with a single shoot, but at least it should be no longer out of nowhere

Between Threat Detector, the eye indicators and the incredibly annoying (and loud) alert sound, I have no idea how people are getting ganked by snipers in this game. I barely even see any snipers. The only one I can think of is Nash? I can't remember any generics off the top of my head.

Sight radius is pretty much the limit of an enemy's range, and thats not very far.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

It's "fun" for me. At least, it feel more "dangerous". Because, anyway, if I don't die in one bullet, generally, I don't die at all...*
"Fun", at least when you don't encounter the bug which make enemies can "see" you and attack you from far, through walls and without any warning (no detection bar, cyberwares inactive,...)

* it would make the game damn easy even in very hard**. For example, after that you get hit the first time (and indeed, didn't die), you simply spam health items and it's fine.

Hmm, this is a succinct way to describe the issue. The player never dies unless random pulls a high roll out of a hat and throws wild burst damage or an instant kill at the player character. It's possible I'm in the minority. I wouldn't consider this good design. To each their own I guess....

 

[Notserious80]

So did they change how enemys HP scale? Havent played in quite some time but remember that there HP scale way higher then the player ever could achive. Thats why the 100% crit 300% dmg overture builds were so popular.

 

[Iferrebee]

So did they change how enemys HP scale? Havent played in quite some time but remember that there HP scale way higher then the player ever could achive. Thats why the 100% crit 300% dmg overture builds were so popular.

you can still hit for 20-60k on the overture
Takes a sniper to hit over 1 million now but still very doable

 

[Notserious80]

you can still hit for 20-60k on the overture
Takes a sniper to hit over 1 million now but still very doable

At 50 im guessing? Last i played i feelt very underpowered with assault rifles/shotguns. Was fairly low level tho and dident really go all in with gear.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

You can pick up the common version of Synaptic Signal Optimiser from Instant Implants in Kabuki. Gives +20% more hp for 3200 eddies and has no body requirement.

Use Health Booster (consumable). They give +20% more hp for 30 minutes (!) and you can buy them at Medpoints. They cost 1800 eddies. I re-up at the Corpo Plaza/Ring Road medpoint.

You also get another 5% hp for 450 seconds from eating food.

This should get you to 559 hp at level 50 with 3 body.

I know (I will but mainly for "Beat On The Brat" fights).
But like I said, I have no problem to be killed in one shoot due to my "weak" build
(It's just my choice and I can't blame the game nor difficulty because I die "easily"^^)

Between Threat Detector, the eye indicators and the incredibly annoying (and loud) alert sound, I have no idea how people are getting ganked by snipers in this game. I barely even see any snipers. The only one I can think of is Nash? I can't remember any generics off the top of my head.

Sight radius is pretty much the limit of an enemy's range, and thats not very far.

Just examples which indeed, doesn't happen anymore in 1.5.

During "Life During Wartime", there is two snipers on the roof of the gas station (around the AV). In one of my playthrough in 1.31, one of this sniper akways "saw" me, entered in combat and shooted on me instantly when I got out of the bike on the top of the hill even before that Panam finished her dialogue lines (so it's far, even very far). So no "warning", no sound, no timer, no icon and the Synapse Accelerator did not even trigger... I simply take the bullet and die. The only way to avoid that, was to run on the left very fast (to avoid the bullet), hide behind the big rocks and launch "System Reset" on him (quite a hard time to launch System Reset, the scanner don't really slowing time when enemies are very far... And worst for me, stealth totally impossible). It was just a mess...

The same kind of thing also happen to me in the GIM (I Walk The Line), as soon as I entered in the building (by the "normal" quest entrance), an Animal on the other side of the building (the one near the turret) saw me through walls and indeed, all the enemies entered in combat right away... A shame for a stealth "quest".

In the example that I posted previously (here), if a player encounter the bug by unluck, the sniper would see and kill him almost right at the entrance of the area whitout any warning (and any possibility to use Ping, nor study the area).

And it was random, it could happen in GIGs, Quests, NCPD Scanner events and reloading a previous save didn't change anything.

But it was a bug (annoying like all the bugs), so nothing "intended" in the gameplay and it's fixed now in 1.5

So did they change how enemys HP scale? Havent played in quite some time but remember that there HP scale way higher then the player ever could achive. Thats why the 100% crit 300% dmg overture builds were so popular.

Very nerfed.
Before almost all the weapons could "one-shot" enemies (like Kongou or even Dying Night), which is no longer the case. Now, Overture is now the only option to properly (and be sure) to do it.

 

[SpookyFX]

But it was a bug (annoying like all the bugs), so nothing "intended" in the gameplay and it's fixed now in 1.5


Very nerfed.
Before almost all the weapons could "one-shot" enemies (like Kongou or even Dying Night), which is no longer the case. Now, Overture is now the only option to properly (and be sure) to do it.

What!!?? Well now I am less excited for the new updates. So other Sniper riffles no longer can get one shot head shots on the NPC (by the player)? For GOD sake that is stupid.

This entire discussion reminds me of something I heard recently about Pinball games in New York. They made them illegal at one time in the past as they were comparing them to Pachinko machines (gambling). The people that wanted them legalized as a skill game had to go to court and prove (with an expert "pinball wizard") that you could in fact direct where the balls go and that it was not just all "random".

 

[LeKill3rFou]

What!!?? Well now I am less excited for the new updates. So other Sniper riffles no longer can get one shot head shots on the NPC (by the player)? For GOD sake that is stupid.

Yep they can (only talk about handguns) to answer about 100% crit chance + Overture build
Nekomata, Ashura, Grad can for sure without any problem (and probably SOR-22 too). Even, without any bonuses added by perks, mods or Cyberwares.