What's up with the awful difficulty design now?

+
And I get that but realism isnt in the lexicon of most games unless you play sims like Arma 3 or MS flight simulator or something that explicity models itself after real things.

In Cyberpunk if you root yourself to the spot and stick your head out, its not particularly surprising to me that you get domed.

And its fine if you want to play like that because it is intuitive to seek cover when under heavy fire. You just have to accept that by doing this, you can be pinned down. By sitting behind cover you give up vision, mobility and your offense.

One of the best defensive tools you have is to make enemies dead, since dead dudes deal zero damage.

You give up your ability to take better terrain when it suits you. Instead you let enemies dictate where they can engage you. Even if you play assault rifles, you want it to be the other way around. You want to control when and where you engage them.

A lot of the time in games, defense doesnt mean giving up control of everything happening around you. It doesnt mean sitting still and holding block. That usually invites pressure onto you.

You dont need to play rushdown, but I guess the video shows how much gunfire you can soak even with no cover to protect you.
Since you refer to realism, I guess this refers to my comment.

To be clear, when I refer to realism, I do speak about real life scenarios in modern warfare, not the World War 1 trench warfare. Like I wrote, bottleneck, retreat, repeat. Assault weapons work the best when player keeps moving, as in real life and is even more important as excluding the Heist, there's no partner to cover V.

There are couple of scenarios in game where battle with assault weapons can be initiated from very good position as player can eliminate flanks very quickly and hostile NPC's has disadvantage for getting V's position. That also reflects to real life also in aspect how to move from there taking advantage of environment to get to enemy.

Reflexes / Assault skill progression rewards, Perks and that different assault weapons have practical differences, not unlike their IRL counterparts all build up to very consistent set, that is perfectly valid to solve combat scenarios in game. I did that on my second playthrough where I went with character with lot's of focus to Reflexes.

I have appreciated many posts you have made as they tend to be very informative and helpful. So I don't mean to be a dick exactly but please appreciate:

I'm no the one who is asking help here.
You are not any kind of authority of how to play the game. For all that reflects to practical gameplay, CDPR knew what they were doing here.
Also comparison to ARMA and such is outlandish in context of this game. CP 2077 doesn't need to go to such lengths, what they have is practically working, unless player tries to play WW 1 trench warfare scenarios. Well, in IRL that was abandoned for very good reasons.


If issue OP is having is related to assault weapons, it's possible that OP tries to turtle in scenarios, then solution would be to keep moving and study how to take advantage of environment.
 
I think, that the thread went into the "git gud" equivalent of Souls games few posts ago but if I can put my 2 cents... @Hayte post highlights the over/under leveled difference which is the key to op complain
You can compare that with Souls games where people do SL1 runs or now in Elden Ring RL1 runs started to appear...
imho, op "problem" is the degree of decoupling of player and character skills that is different in cp and souls games even if both are action RPGs (and RPG purists can argue that none of them are actually RPGs since player skills are very prevalent).
 
Since you refer to realism, I guess this refers to my comment.
I'm not telling you how to play the game! You can play the game however you want! If OP is dying there is a reason for that and this is all about trying to understand what that obstacles might be and how to overcome them. As far as I can tell, we aren't even in disagreement - you are using cover proactively and aren't getting domed by random headshots. Why are we even arguing?

GrimReaper801 was right. Its clear at this point the OP doesn't want to be helped, so all thats left is people trying to offer suggestions without the necessary information to fix the problem. And that just results in everyone taking issue with everyone else's attempt to rationalise the OP's problem. This is a waste of time.
 
Anyway, I think that a vast majority of players are at least ok (if not happy) with the changes added in 1.5. And I suppose if CDPR improve more the enemies AI in the futur updates, the game would be even more difficult. Maybe enemies will use the enviroment more efficiently, will only shoot when players aren't behind cover, netrunner maybe will use more QHs like Optic Reboot, Weapons Glitch or Cripple Movement... So I don't think that the game could become more "easy" in the futur :)
 
Reflexes / Assault skill progression rewards, Perks and that different assault weapons have practical differences, not unlike their IRL counterparts all build up to very consistent set, that is perfectly valid to solve combat scenarios in game. I did that on my second playthrough where I went with character with lot's of focus to Reflexes.
IMHO most of reflexes perks have close to no value. They improve given weapon category but they aren't build defining in any way (aside of maybe Comrades Hammer :D) Even with 3 reflexes you are as good with weapons as well you can handle them.

Paradoxically reflexes cyberware is way more build defining than the perks.

I would like to see that with very low reflexes you can use lower rarity hand guns while anything else you are quite clumsy (some absurd bad aim and so on). And with low body using a shotgun or a revolver/burya can result in hitting your face with the gun or something alike which would give same effect as flash grenades.
 
I think, that the thread went into the "git gud" equivalent of Souls games few posts ago
It's hard to avoid going there when the entirety of the argument presented is "it's not me, it's the game" whilst a dozen people are saying "no, it's not"

Git gud is essentially what this is starting to boil down to but it's unavoidable when someone refuses to listen to any advice.
 
Hmm don't know how about now, but I remember getting oneshotted on hard difficulty, kinda out of nowhere. Seemed like enemies are doing lot more damage than I do.

TBH I kinda would not need the entire RPG system in there - RNGs, crit, elemental damage etc. Bulletsponges untill you outlevel them etc etc. BUT hey we have mods for that.

So I'd recommend maybe Realistic combat overhaul. Turns it in to rainbow six - trivializes some encounters, but levels the playingfield. If you want fair I'd try this. Don't forget to grab the no level requirement mod so that now obsolete level does not restrict you from using the higher level gear.

Good luck.
 
Last edited:
getting oneshotted on hard difficulty, kinda out of nowhere.
That's usually an explosion or melee enemy hitting you. In 1.5 snipers also. You can even die from exploding turrets if you are to close :D

IMHO the game should have enemy level scaling so that so on hard they are always "orange" and on very hard they are always "red" vs your level. This prevents outgearing and also gives much more value to perks that increase damage (as level advantage is superior to those perks).
 
Perhaps if they ever decide to do a "Cyberpsycho" difficulty level above "Very Hard" - its quite easy to set enemy level scaling to player level + 3 (and there is already a mod that does this).

Level scaling like this just leans into the OP's criticism of the game's awful difficulty design by making it more awful. If you aren't getting one shot out of nowhere now then you will if everything is scaling to player level + 6.

Fighting that is going to make a lot of things useless so in terms of build variety you will have less viable options. Quickhacking will cost an enormous amount of RAM and your hacks will take forever to upload. Other than System Reset, your ultimate hacks won't kill anything, but will eat all your RAM anyway.

The unarmed stealth system may as well be deleted because you can't silent takedown enemies 6 levels above you (they will always break out of it).

The reality is you can't fix a complex system by changing one variable. You will just get a series of cascading, unintended consequences that eventually necessitate redesign.
 

GLN7

Forum regular
Take Souls games for instance. They're completely fair. Your death is your own fault. I don't think the difficulty was handled well in this game. They just turn NPC's into tanks and make you wet tissue paper. How is that more challenging? Souls, you hit hard and so does the enemy. If you get overzealous you can get owned by a scrub enemy. I'm able to get through the game fine but having to repeat an encounter cause some rando got a lucky crit on me is just plain stupid. The best way they could handle this in my opinion would be make enemies just as vulnerable as you. You hit hard, they hit hard. Then it's more about tactics and approaching a situation correctly.
How is it not your fault when you die in CP2077?

I never had these problems OP. Here's my playstyle -

Netrunner build, with some points in Cool. Approach the situation casually, scope out the area before there is any aggro on me. Try to identify snipers immediately, because it hurts when they shoot me. Go to cover, and start hacking - disable at least one sniper before combat actually begins. Damage any others if you can. They still don't know where you are, if you have remained in cover, but they will start hacking your location, so now you have to get mobile. This was the goal anyway, sitting in cover is waiting for death. It is used strategically and discarded as soon as possible. Hack them some more, and choose a duck to step on. Time slows every time you bring up your quickhacks, abuse it.

In short, yes, git gud. Nothing else to be said at this point, your complaints are falling on deaf ears and if you prefer Souls combat so much, perhaps go play Souls or Elden Ring. This difficulty is not going to change massively from here, so your option is git gud or move on. Either is fine.
 
Not an actual challenge to get one shot during a gun fight fyi. I've been full health and died with a lucky crit hit by some rando NPC. This is not good design. This isn't how you make something more challenging. The reason why Elden Rings difficulty works is simple. It's fair and once you realize the challenge you can over come it. There's nothing to overcome when you get downed by a hit scan enemy from 40 meters. Bad design, fix this CDPR.

I have a suspicion you are engaging with enemies of considerably higher level than you. This game does not have level scaling.


(even though the OP does seem like a troll.)
 
It's hard to avoid going there when the entirety of the argument presented is "it's not me, it's the game" whilst a dozen people are saying "no, it's not"

Git gud is essentially what this is starting to boil down to but it's unavoidable when someone refuses to listen to any advice.
Hmm, my interpretation of the OP's posts is they do not agree with the way difficulty is handled. Advice on builds, strategy, etc. is completely irrelevant to this criticism. The criticism is targeted at the fundamental operation of the game mechanics.

Where it flounders a bit is games are often setup this way for a reason. There is no intelligence to the NPC/combat behavior. Incidentally, the game requires a crutch of some sort to remain competitive. Well, I should say try to remain competitive. :)

Unfortunately the common practice is to tweak the numbers. The path of least resistance and all. The bad guys hit harder, the player is artificially gimped, or both. There are plenty of alternatives. Those alternatives carry their own set of pros and cons but they do exist. Whether they are a better concept or not depends. Apparently the OP thinks so. I can't say I disagree with them on this point.

The only part I don't see eye to eye with is the commentary related to critical hits. If something can one shot my character with a critical hit it can one shot my character. Character development and strategy are going to be based on the potential peak damage in the encounter (the crit). It becomes a "don't get hit" moment. The universal rule when one shot kills are in the equation.
 

GLN7

Forum regular
Really solid points there dingo!

There is a missing element of AI variety. Now, some characters do go all VTmB Celerity on us, but otherwise they are either melee or gun, and their affiliation doesn't change tactics or behavior. No "ranking" enemies really either, mini-boss types. The weapons give some of the NPC combatants variety by using the weapon they are armed with, but it could be deeper.

This is not a unique criticism for CDPR, this formula has been used again and again and again. Just saying, that would be a nice tweak down the road, if their combat AI has a codebase to build something of the sort.

I hope the OP isn't trolling, and has taken the better advice of the thread and got on with their game. This is just the nature of the game for now and the foreseeable future.
 
Hmm, my interpretation of the OP's posts is they do not agree with the way difficulty is handled. Advice on builds, strategy, etc. is completely irrelevant to this criticism. The criticism is targeted at the fundamental operation of the game mechanics.

I disagree with this statement, because I think it is relevant. Highly relevant. Random damage calculated on certain variables has been part of RPGs since... well, pretty much forever. The primary ways of dealing with that have always been build, equipment and strategy.

To use the example of Souls games again (because why not?), these games have been known for their difficulty for over a decade now. The entire difficulty curve of the games is based around dying over and over again until you learn the specific patterns and attacks of whatever is stopping you at the moment so that you can eventually overcome it to get to the next thing that will absolutely wreck you. If I bought Elden Ring and complained about the very basics behind this, I'd either get told off or be offered advice on how to deal with this.

It is my responsibility to realize I can either accept the advice and adapt to the genre or that the genre isn't for me. This advice will be all about build and strategy. It's literally the only things a player has power over to mitigate the game's difficulty. If I decide to ignore all advice that would severely mitigate my issue and press forward because I want to play a certain way that simply isn't viable in these games, I'm the issue. Not the other way around. I wouldn't be asking FromSoftware to change their recipe because I happen to not like it and refuse to consider anything outside of my play style while million of others do and this is essentially what we're seeing here.

Furthermore, you say most games take the easy road and simply pump up/down numbers for enemies, the player or both. That is entirely right. There is no perfect alternative. That's where difficulty options come into play. If the pumped up numbers are putting you down, lower the difficulty.

It is that simple.

As a side note, Elden Ring is an amazing game.
 
I disagree with this statement, because I think it is relevant. Highly relevant. Random damage calculated on certain variables has been part of RPGs since... well, pretty much forever. The primary ways of dealing with that have always been build, equipment and strategy.
The OP does not appear to be confused on how to deal with it though. I get the impression they already know how to do so. They're saying the way difficulty is setup in this game is not to their liking. Why is this not a valid criticism? Company makes product. Customer doesn't like an aspect of the product. It's normal to voice those concerns.
To use the example of Souls games again (because why not?), these games have been known for their difficulty for over a decade now. The entire difficulty curve of the games is based around dying over and over again until you learn the specific patterns and attacks of whatever is stopping you at the moment so that you can eventually overcome it to get to the next thing that will absolutely wreck you. If I bought Elden Ring and complained about the very basics behind this, I'd either get told off or be offered advice on how to deal with this.
The behavior where the player identifies the patterns and finds a way to beat them applies to every game where the player is pitted against something. The only real difference with Souls games is they make the room for error smaller and the punishment for it worse. This isn't really franchise defining either. The number of games where you can push the envelope and create this scenario for yourself is quite large.
It is my responsibility to realize I can either accept the advice and adapt to the genre or that the genre isn't for me. This advice will be all about build and strategy. It's literally the only things a player has power over to mitigate the game's difficulty. If I decide to ignore all advice that would severely mitigate my issue and press forward because I want to play a certain way that simply isn't viable in these games, I'm the issue. Not the other way around. I wouldn't be asking FromSoftware to change their recipe because I happen to not like it and refuse to consider anything outside of my play style while million of others do and this is essentially what we're seeing here.
Only if the extremely specific manner this particular game uses to manage difficulty is genre defining. It is not for CP.
Furthermore, you say most games take the easy road and simply pump up/down numbers for enemies, the player or both. That is entirely right. There is no perfect alternative. That's where difficulty options come into play. If the pumped up numbers are putting you down, lower the difficulty.
The game could include more hostiles within it's encounters. Add more variety to the constituent parts of those encounters. Provide more to those encounters. More consumables, the ability to use them, better equipped gear. It could slow the rate of progression for the player (a number tweak perhaps... arguably a better way to handle it though). There are many ways to adjust difficulty beyond simple number tweaks.

Again, the impression is this is the heart of it. A player upset with the way it's handled is being confused with a player upset they can't handle it. Those are very different complaints. "This is not fair, I can't beat it" is where advice on builds, gearing and strategy are useful. Telling someone to use a better build, gear or strategy isn't accomplishing much if they're complaining about the design of the mechanics.
 

GLN7

Forum regular
Ok, now you lost me dingo.

That's a lot of reaching. I appreciate your sympathetic position, but if OP doesn't like how video games work (because this is an example of how many many many games work, have worked will work) then [...]

You are too charitable imo. If you want to reach to make OPs point valid, go for it. They aren't fooling me.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I agree and at the same time disagree with OP. I disagree that CP 1.5 is in any way difficult. As far as I saw (bc who's got time between Sifu, Dying light 2 and Elden), there's been improvements but AI is abusable as ever, and gamebreaking stuff like Sandevistan or tech cover abuse is still there. I agree, however, because crit headshot rng is just annoying.

Random damage calculated on certain variables has been part of RPGs since... well, pretty much forever. (...)
Elden Ring is an amazing game.

Contradicting yourself there. Dmg numbers in Elden Ring are constants. Always been in Souls.

Anyway, it's not about IF calculate rng but HOW calculate rng. Imo CP is still wacky in that department.

if OP doesn't like how video games work (...) then [...]

If people never spoke out like OP, you'd still have all the base game memes like 300% crit chance on items, 8k armor invincibility, 100 mil crits, etc.

[...]

Netrunner build (...)

In short, yes, git gud.

Saying git gud after describing self as doing stealth in CP strikes me as a little frisky... Stealth is trivial in CP. One of the things that was hardly addressed in 1.5 (except the biggest abuses like Contagion, ofc).
 
The OP does not appear to be confused on how to deal with it though. I get the impression they already know how to do so. They're saying the way difficulty is setup in this game is not to their liking. Why is this not a valid criticism? Company makes product. Customer doesn't like an aspect of the product. It's normal to voice those concerns.

I disagree with a lot of your post but, frankly, most of it is goes very off-topic. It's an entirely different conversation that could be worth exploring but would only get this thread closed. Plus we're probably already veering into what the moderators will consider personal skirmishes, especially with the last two posts getting edited this thread is now, probably, higher up on their watch list now.

So I'll address this part as simply, concisely and succinctly as I can since I think this is where we diverge in opinion and the source of our little back&forth.

Yes, it can be very valid criticism. Customers voicing their concerns to a company about whatever product is fine and something to be encouraged, when it's done in a way that provides data a company can actually use to make their product better. That's not what the OP is doing. Read the OP again and it goes "I died, I don't like it, it sucks, change it". There is nothing in there I would consider as valid criticism. How do you analyze such feedback? You can't, it sounds like an overly emotional reaction to dying. Most probably on very hard difficulty because I don't think you could ever get one shotted on anything but very hard. So, the difficulty that's meant to kill you as much as possible works but you don't like it because you die?

On top of that, no further information was provided. Plenty of people asked for more but none was provided. Just more "I don't like it". You say build advice is irrelevant but it isn't. To use Elden Ring as an example again, if I get to level 78 dumping all my points into arcane, I have no right to complain about dying in a single hit from even the most common of high level mobs. I screwed the pooch. Same goes if I decide I want to play the game with no dodging at all. I will block everything with my claymore! Including bosses! Then keep dying over and over because it's just not feasible. I gimped myself. I have no business complaining. It's literally not how the game is meant to be played.

So how is a company supposed to interpret criticism such as the OP's? No information on build, no information on actions, no information on equipment. Nothing. So who's to say the OP isn't just screwing up? How is a company supposed to know?

Additionally, you think the OP knows how to deal with it but frankly I don't think so. Especially when you can literally turn off the unfair, pumped up RNG number by simply lowering the difficulty if you don't like them. That's literally what the difficulty options are about. If you want to feel the full effect of those pumped up numbers then you really should be willing to deal with the consequences (death) and the necessity of improving yourself (build, strategy, etc).

Didn't turn out so succinct...

Contradicting yourself there. Dmg numbers in Elden Ring are constants. Always been in Souls.

No, I'm not. I said it's been a part of RPGs since forever. Not part of every RPG since forever.

There are other examples besides the Souls series I am certain of it. It doesn't negate the fact.
 
I'm hoping for the day where there is an option to even out area difficulties in the game and have enemie's level adapt more to Vs level all around the map. To prevent, closer to the end game, having a lot of "very easy" fights on the one hand but also and especially to navigate the city in different ways across a playthrough. Not always leave city center gigs and ncpd calls for last, or be able to go to Heywood and get into some messes early game (especially if you are street kid, you grow up there, then can't visit the hood without running away from everyone)...
I know this is normal for a lot of rpgs, the Witcher 3 was like that as an examplr but I don't think it serves cyberpunk 77' replayability and it doesn't adhere to a city such as Night City as it does a medieval/fantasy setting for example. In a medieval set story characters are usually travelling great distances on rudimentary vehicles or horses... it doesn't ask to be back and forth between areas usually. In Night City you want to go back and forth across all town, so this system seems especially gamey and again, to the detriment of gameplay (creates more similar playthroughs).
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom