Where are you going with cyberpunk ?

[GogRelvas]

Damn. I can't really disagree with any of that. Jesus really IS in the toast...

I still don't think that works completely though because after the prologue that's no longer what the story is focussed on.
The prologue totally follows that arc, sure - they're shooting for immortality, they reach the proverbial fountain of youth, but then Jackie dies and V ends up with a couple weeks left. They could've done an epilogue right after that and rolled the credits then and there.

But they don't; instead the meat of the story begins and it's no longer about achieving immortality. The goal has completely changed. Now what's the point in doing that with your story if it's not going to make a significant difference? I mean, here's the timeline with a 6 month ending:

(Prologue) = quest for immortality --> jackie dies and V's lifespan is cut to a couple weeks (/prologue)
(Bulk of story) = quest to find a cure ---> ends up with 6 months instead (/bulk of story)

To me, that means V's practically ended up right back to where the main story started. And for what? What's the point then?

I stick with my previous interpretation on this matter. Even on a videogame, where a story is delivered through an interfaceable manner, the main themes of the story don't need to be delivered from the perspective of the player. All it needs to do to is make the player reflect on such themes.
If Johnny takes over V's bofy he may aswell be immortal for all we know; or does the relic fix the host organism considering a human's lifespan? So V might be dealing with an engram in his/her head which will reach immortality if he gives up his/her mortality. Saburo is trying to reach it and it is the technology he patronized that may achieve it.
The choice to turn the perspective from the protagonist being in the center of the story to many times more a spectator of it is what makes V a common person protagonist. That doesn't mean the main theme is not being dealt with somewhere else. It rings very inline with our real world.

 

[CS554]

Here, I have to disagree. I don't think the game did anything to "deconstruct" the classical themes. They simply re-explored them in a new setting with new characters. I can find nothing -- not one example from anywhere in the story -- that deviates from the classic "Quest For Immortality" theme. Nothing. At the same time, I can run down the list and tick off all the boxes that line up nicely with every other piece I've ever read surrounding this. I can even applaud the beautiful nuance of using existing elements of Cyberpunk 2020 to blend this story in seamlessly. We have the trusted friend lost on the path...we have the supernatural messenger...we have sudden realization that grasping at power -- not wanting it -- is the critical mistake...we have the final choice and sacrifice. Every part of the motif is there. All of it. Everything.

What I will readily admit is: I can wholeheartedly agree this was probably not the best direction to take the game as a first outing for the IP. I think that a more open-ended, sandbox approach would have worked much better for one reason alone:

The Cyberpunk RPG has been a cult hit pretty much since its inception. As such, many people have taken it in their own directions. For the game to have created such defined lines, thematically and gameplay-wise, was almost guaranteed to alienate a big segment of the audience. I think an approach that let the player create any sort of character they wanted (choose whatever class, be a lingering paragon of hope, a ruthless ganger, cold-logic merc out for eddies, or anything in-between) would have gone over much better. Then, you have the run of Night City.

Trouble is...that sort of game could not have a carefully crafted narrative. And that's what CDPR has always been noted for. Frankly, the game was exactly what I was expecting, a little lackluster in some areas, but surprisingly better than I was expecting in others. I loved the story. Beautiful blend of gritty, surreal, and quirky.

Classical idea and their method to do stuff, it looks like they loaned stuff. For me Devil ending hit like a ton of bricks and later it made me think it's like some ancient Greek level horror story and look what I found: here. What I don't mention there is that Cronus was god of chaos, left that for curious people to find out on purpose. A lot could be accidental, but even that, thinking about what you learn about Saburo if you keep your eyes open. What this leaves open is I guess how much using that as useful piece can tell or doesn't how writers of CP 2077 sees things.

Another classic piece comes down with Panam. It was so good that it was ridiculous, explained here and you can see I'm not alone with my point of view there. It's just that certain things are difficult to express and some people get them and some not. If any CDRP writer saw that, I'm sure they knew what I mean LOL

Then on more serious tone, there is Judy and existential depression. I made a topic about that here. All the material you need to do your own peer review is linked in that post and I really recommend checking that one out for general reasons too. Very good read. I had this funny feeling about Judy, where her head is at from IRL experience working with very talented people and most of the time being the gonk in the room. Summary linked is something I happen I thankfully happened to come by as I was going nuts about if I was seeing things and if I should write about that aspect of Judy's character or not.

There's a ton of this stuff in game. One or two I could take just as good kind of accidents, but this stuff is all over the game and that's what makes it good.

Like I wrote, they threw Freud at Shakespeare (and like), something very grounded to Nietzsche and Heidegger (I wonder what response were been if they were used Sartre's absurdism ) and to immortality in general, that's Jackie true purpose, he died trying to reach that legend status, become one though, but then.. so what? That's one of the questions game asks. Great works of fiction do this.

EDIT: Added missing link.

I wouldn't say your point of view and yours, CS554 are very different overall; more the "deconstruct" term discussion so common in the arts world. I personally prefer reconstruct as a lot (most?) Ideas have been explored, we can ultimately find our authentic way of pondering upon and expressing them, inline with the available technology and influenced by it's contemporary society, culture, zeitgeist.

We were earlier discussing about cultural gaps, you mentioned and it's a good and very relevant topic. What is happening here and you can distill from a some of the feedback, there were people who wanted "the formula" but that's not what we got except on some level, (Don't Fear) the Reaper ultimately? I don't know, perhaps it's like that sometimes people say they want something new but they really want same stuff but different color? Then sometimes, for some people it's something else, like say tv-show the Expanse, I don't give a fuck about spaceships to be honest but scenarios in show are very relevant to our history and today and I sort of lament that we can't for some reason make more grounded drama about things that are REAL. Maybe someday. But it's kinda scary how we (people in general) are influenced so much by media around us and vice versa because we won't find true answer from fiction made by that feedback loop. It's of course that it's not entertainment industry and artists in that aspect of that to educate but to entertain, but still...

CP 2077 writing can be seen quite punk actually if you think that one reason why punk was born was idea that nothing of value cannot be made and there's no value of expression if it's not copy or similar of some classic. For cyberpunk literature, punk element comes from rebellion against stale state of science fiction that cyberpunks felt was not perhaps science grounded but magic in form of technology to create some sort of pipe dream scenario possible. Say if we had a colony ship, unless we can solve energy problem on Earth how is that really solving a problem but just escaping that? And cyberpunk was about breaking away from that to something more grounded and actually to do with the human condition and game does that exactly.

How we see our entertainment, I kinda tried to explain this in reply, some evaluate their entertainment how it compares to other entertainment, say classic works of fiction. Some evaluate it versus real life, even if scenario is absurd on face value (retro-futuristic city, mantis blades, etc.) if that manages to explain real things. These are difficult things, we can all be anyone in the internet but say maybe I have something published but fiction, no, I don't have anything to do with that. For influences, I actually studied philosophy, only one course but still and few other things along my main and I had to because you can't understand someone like Christopher Lasch if you don't understand Freud, for example. I can watch or read something lighthearted and silly but really invest time like playing CP 2077 entirely, it has to be good on my terms to be worth that and for my terms too, V can be let to become an NCP like I wrote earlier because for what's relevant for V has been covered and V has become in intellectual sense irrelevant even though, I don't see that opinion being popular for emotional reason, I can actually also understand, I just don't necessarily see how that would work.

Post automatically merged: Dec 13, 2021

Damn. I can't really disagree with any of that. Jesus really IS in the toast...

I still don't think that works completely though because after the prologue that's no longer what the story is focussed on.
The prologue totally follows that arc, sure - they're shooting for immortality, they reach the proverbial fountain of youth, but then Jackie dies and V ends up with a couple weeks left. They could've done an epilogue right after that and rolled the credits then and there.

But they don't; instead the meat of the story begins and it's no longer about achieving immortality. The goal has completely changed. Now what's the point in doing that with your story if it's not going to make a significant difference? I mean, here's the timeline with a 6 month ending:

(Prologue) = quest for immortality --> jackie dies and V's lifespan is cut to a couple weeks (/prologue)
(Bulk of story) = quest to find a cure ---> ends up with 6 months instead (/bulk of story)

To me, that means V's practically ended up right back to where the main story started. And for what? What's the point then?

Or in other words, they can let V die, but that wont actually achieve anything. Wicked product this is

 

[GogRelvas]

Classical idea and their method to do stuff, it looks like they loaned stuff. For me Devil ending hit like a ton of bricks and later it made me think it's like some ancient Greek level horror story and look what I found: here. What I don't mention there is that Cronus was god of chaos, left that for curious people to find out on purpose. A lot could be accidental, but even that, thinking about what you learn about Saburo if you keep your eyes open. What this leaves open is I guess how much using that as useful piece can tell or doesn't how writers of CP 2077 sees things.

Another classic piece comes down with Panam. It was so good that it was ridiculous, explained here and you can see I'm not alone with my point of view there. It's just that certain things are difficult to express and some people get them and some not. If any CDRP writer saw that, I'm sure they knew what I mean LOL

Then on more serious tone, there is Judy and existential depression. I made a topic about that here. All the material you need to do your own peer review is linked in that post and I really recommend checking that one out for general reasons too. Very good read. I had this funny feeling about Judy, where her head is at from IRL experience working with very talented people and most of the time being the gonk in the room. Summary linked is something I happen I thankfully happened to come by as I was going nuts about if I was seeing things and if I should write about that aspect of Judy's character or not.

There's a ton of this stuff in game. One or two I could take just as good kind of accidents, but this stuff is all over the game and that's what makes it good.

Like I wrote, they threw Freud at Shakespeare (and like), something very grounded to Nietzsche and Heidegger (I wonder what response were been if they were used Sartre's absurdism ) and to immortality in general, that's Jackie true purpose, he died trying to reach that legend status, become one though, but then.. so what? That's one of the questions game asks. Great works of fiction do this.

EDIT: Added missing link.

We were earlier discussing about cultural gaps, you mentioned and it's a good and very relevant topic. What is happening here and you can distill from a some of the feedback, there were people who wanted "the formula" but that's not what we got except on some level, (Don't Fear) the Reaper ultimately? I don't know, perhaps it's like that sometimes people say they want something new but they really want same stuff but different color? Then sometimes, for some people it's something else, like say tv-show the Expanse, I don't give a fuck about spaceships to be honest but scenarios in show are very relevant to our history and today and I sort of lament that we can't for some reason make more grounded drama about things that are REAL. Maybe someday. But it's kinda scary how we (people in general) are influenced so much by media around us and vice versa because we won't find true answer from fiction made by that feedback loop. It's of course that it's not entertainment industry and artists in that aspect of that to educate but to entertain, but still...

CP 2077 writing can be seen quite punk actually if you think that one reason why punk was born was idea that nothing of value cannot be made and there's no value of expression if it's not copy or similar of some classic. For cyberpunk literature, punk element comes from rebellion against stale state of science fiction that cyberpunks felt was not perhaps science grounded but magic in form of technology to create some sort of pipe dream scenario possible. Say if we had a colony ship, unless we can solve energy problem on Earth how is that really solving a problem but just escaping that? And cyberpunk was about breaking away from that to something more grounded and actually to do with the human condition and game does that exactly.

How we see our entertainment, I kinda tried to explain this in reply, some evaluate their entertainment how it compares to other entertainment, say classic works of fiction. Some evaluate it versus real life, even if scenario is absurd on face value (retro-futuristic city, mantis blades, etc.) if that manages to explain real things. These are difficult things, we can all be anyone in the internet but say maybe I have something published but fiction, no, I don't have anything to do with that. For influences, I actually studied philosophy, only one course but still and few other things along my main and I had to because you can't understand someone like Christopher Lasch if you don't understand Freud, for example. I can watch or read something lighthearted and silly but really invest time like playing CP 2077 entirely, it has to be good on my terms to be worth that and for my terms too, V can be let to become an NCP like I wrote earlier because for what's relevant for V has been covered and V has become in intellectual sense irrelevant even though, I don't see that opinion being popular for emotional reason, I can actually also understand, I just don't necessarily see how that would work.

Post automatically merged: Dec 13, 2021

Or in other words, they can let V die, but that wont actually achieve anything. Wicked product this is

I agree 100% about V's future and the rest of the thread. And I think it's impossible to not have these conceirns right now. Covid-19 and specially the answers to it, plud much more kinda came to put a lot of things to perspective didn't it?

 

[CS554]

I agree 100% about V's future and the rest of the thread. And I think it's impossible to not have these conceirns right now. Covid-19 and specially the answers to it, plud much more kinda came to put a lot of things to perspective didn't it?

Honestly, difficult to say. Game is going to be a classic, perhaps controversial one but it definitely is going to be one once they smooth out certain technical issues some people will love it even more, as there were a lot of posts during early days saying "the best game I have ever played". It's going to continue to have appeal and in long term, they should just keep doing what they do. Then how much pressure there is and possible influence of that... Then management matters. I don't know if you checked the posts I linked to part of my reply to SigilFey but maybe check them out... I added a link I forgot. But someone had to have brains and guts to greenlit all that and all things like that is what makes CP 2077 to stand out from most of other games (the Outer Worlds is only contender in that sense really) and now it's a matter if who ever stepped in those shoes has same brain and guts and vision for CDRP to continue to do what they did with base game to expansions. Because this all Covid and that, will be over, graphics get outdated but things like animation (not just body language but including facial animation, micro expressions and all that) and voice acting and writing, that combination won't get outdated anytime soon and my best guess is that good expansion would build from those strong points.

They could try to change their story within story approach for sequel, I mean Outer Worlds got away with that. Then it also looks like core audience don't talk about certain things, real climax of game so to say where it comes to topic of loss of shared reality is a real world thing, and that didn't perhaps help that game to reach new audiences where I think it could have been very well received but I don't know really.

But CP 2077 and expansion(s) IMO they should just keep going and doing what they do, because that's awesome.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I stick with my previous interpretation on this matter. Even on a videogame, where a story is delivered through an interfaceable manner, the main themes of the story don't need to be delivered from the perspective of the player. All it needs to do to is make the player reflect on such themes.
If Johnny takes over V's bofy he may aswell be immortal for all we know; or does the relic fix the host organism considering a human's lifespan? So V might be dealing with an engram in his/her head which will reach immortality if he gives up his/her mortality. Saburo is trying to reach it and it is the technology he patronized that may achieve it.
The choice to turn the perspective from the protagonist being in the center of the story to many times more a spectator of it is what makes V a common person protagonist. That doesn't mean the main theme is not being dealt with somewhere else. It rings very inline with our real world.

In my opinion, the current endings as they currently are, follow this mortality/immortality plot

So in endings where V go in Mikoshi, V accept :
- Go with Alt behind the black wall and not dying.
- Return in his/her body and dying (6 months remaining).

In Devil ending :
- Sign the Arasaka's contract, go in Mikoshi and not dying.
- Don't sign the Arasaka's contract, return on earth and dying (6 months remaining).

In all case, V know "well" the consequences of his/her decisions and by consequence accept them.

V goes behind the Black Wall / in Mikoshi > Immortality and cheat the death but loose everything that he/she have in the "real/organic" world ("immortality" who also could be matter of debate because Alt said you could "die" behind the black wall and I suppose that Arasaka can also "erase" you in Mikoshi if they want).
V come back into his/her body > Mortal (but V earn again 6 months more, instead of dying right away...) and can "enjoy" life, family, LI.

 

[CS554]

V come back into his/her body > Mortal (but V earn again 6 months more, instead of dying right away...) and can "enjoy" life, family, LI.

Knock Panam up... to use English expression, survive by Panam and...

 

[Restlessdingo32]

• V and Jackie are trying to get to the "Big Leagues" -- a direct metaphor to achieving eternal glory in Night City.
• They specifically head to a bar called "The Afterlife" and ask about "how you get a drink named after you" (which is a direct, literary analogy for living forever -- "my name shall live forever" -- as occurs throughout [especially] Western literature.)
• They are told that the only way is to die -- the classic paradox of immortality. It's juxtaposition of the concept of actual immortality with metaphorical, achievable immortality. Again, a classic thematic of the quest for immortality.
• They then encounter a man (Arasaka) who has come up with a way of prolonging his life indefinitely, but it requires an inhuman cost. Again, a classic, literary motif. (Over three thousand years of this stuff exists.)
• The "immortal" is then slain -- another classic element of the motif that foreshadows the inevitable.
• V receives aid from a "supernatural guide" we can't be sure is on his side. Classic character for the literature: Utnapishtim, Mephistopheles, Merlin, Cornelius Agrippa, Lestat...
• V grasps at the "Wheel of Fortune" and is inevitably crushed by it. We see it in every, single literary piece that deals with the motif: Gilgamesh, Sisyphus, Beowulf, Le Morte d'Arthur, Dracula, Frankenstein, The Mortal Immortal, Interview With the Vampire...frig, even Star Wars goes there...

That's not seeing a deity in my Cheerios. That's recognizing clearly established literary theme based on thousands of years of classical art, as universally depicted around the world, and recognized as a core tenet of literature itself.

The theme is there. Whether the theme is there isn't under question. It's whether the game narrative is intended to primarily be about that theme. Is it the entire premise and purpose of the story? How does V feel about all of this? There are many other themes in the game. It's a long list. Your examples provide supporting evidence immortality is one of them.

Let's try it this way. I'll present how I saw the game and you can point out the errors.

Spoiler: Warning. Text Wall with Spoilers

First playthrough, Streetkid. I spent about 40 hours playing the game from the prologue through the Heist in nearly every conceivable way imaginable. Mostly for curiosity. In any case, the first "real" playthrough I started as a Streetkid. For whatever reason it felt like V was kinda pushed toward Streetkid. That path felt like it fit the narrative the best to me. So Streetkid it will be.

I get to the part where Jackie mentions reaching the big leagues. Queue the eye roll. The big leagues, the tippy top. Yes Jackie. You do you. I'll carry the team with more practical considerations and, in spite of your amateur, arguably childish outlook, keep us moving in the right direction. I've lived the Street thug life and, let me tell you, it doesn't go anywhere. Thoughts of achieving figurative immortality are not in that equation. It rarely lasts for forever. Thus, it's not immortality in the first place. Towers and programs were blown to bits years prior and it amounted to little more than a delay. Skynet is inevitable.

Fast forward a bit and we're at the Afterlife. Ooh, ahh, the Afterlife. Some fancy club. I don't care. I don't care about famous past mercs. I don't care about other current mercs. I care about V. Drink names. Queue another eye roll. Yes, let's pick up an insane job, fail at it but go out in a blaze of glory so we can be remembered. We saw how that worked out for Johnny (who? who is this Johnny fella asks the NPC?).

Onto Dex. Let's step in the vehicle. Nice sales pitch Dex. Night City, the city of dreams. Let's be famous. Not buying it Dex, sorry. No, my immediate and unshakeable thought was this guy is setting me up and will eventually fuck me. I'll steal the thing and he'll double-cross. Write it down. Fortunately I am prepared for and can do something about it (nope).

Yes, I will take the job. Primarily because my options are take the job or take the job. We can pass this off as narratives must take control of events to progress themselves. We're stealing a biochip. What does it do? I don't know. I saw a TV ad for some secure your soul program. It sounded too good to be true but maybe that is what we're stealing. For fame and glory? To achieve immortality? Eh, no thanks. I'll steal it to get paid and achieve early retirement on the closest analogue to a tropical island in the world of 2077. As a Streetkid I've been living in this shithole for long enough.

There is an Arasaka coup underway. I don't care. It doesn't impact my plans of a tropical paradise. Jackie dies, fuck. That's unfortunate. Relic in head. Why? Because stories. Lets go meet Dex. Alert, alert, the fuckery is about to unfold. Here it comes. We knew it was coming. We're prepared and can do something about it (nope). Ambush, shot in the head, dead, wake up, Johnny, watch Takemura make Dex's head disappear, in and out of consciousness, at Vic's clinic, still in and out, wake up.

We've arrived at the "real" story finally. V, you're dying. That thing you stuck in your head? The thing you didn't even want to put in your head (stories....)? Yeah, it's overwriting you with a Rockerboy from the past with no current relevance. Well shit. This puts a hamper on the tropical island plans. Vic, fix me. Sorry V, beyond my abilities. Okay, it's fine. We'll find another way. All isn't lost.

Takemura wants to meet. We're getting somewhere. Progress people. We can fix this. The options are track down Evelyn, Hellman or meet Hanako. Let's explore them all. We got time. Find Hellman. Dead end. Okay, Evelyn. Dead end. Well that was an epic waste of time. It's okay, door number 3 remains. We still got time. But first..... She doesn't want anything to do with us.

We meet Alt along the journey, of course. Hello there Alt. You're very colorful today. What, I'm screwed? Damnit. But wait... If I help you with this thing you might know a way? Let's do it. Surely you're not content to get what you want then suddenly recall I am a tiny human. It's a dystopian hell hole. Everyone is perfectly honest and upfront. The city of dreams.

Returning to Takemura. Tak, how do we get to Hanako? Let's meet her associate. Whoops, he told us to fuck off. No meet. Tak, how do we meet Hanako? Oh, an elaborate plan to smash some snipers, avoid detection and jump on a float? Sign me up. Queue the drama followed by we're on the float. Lady Hanako, I apologize. I wanted to be blessed with your presence but you wouldn't see me. So we had to improvise. I realize I stole your shit but can you fix me anyway? Bygones? Of course V, just solve this internal coup for me.

At this point I'll mention I did all of the side content before the elaborate float plan. The Nomads, we're family. Rogue, I'll take that mantle from you. Johnny, what happened to you in the past? Extreme tragedy, that's what. Much of it self-induced. I also romanced Judy. A real heart warmer that one.

Now that this is out of the way. The moment of truth. What shall henceforth be referred to as The Phonecall. I can call the Nomads, Rogue or Hanako. Unfortunately I missed the sailboat on V entering Arasaka tower like the Terminator by a hair. Wait, I can only call one group? I can't reenact the scene from The Professional with Gary Oldman and bring everyone? Bummer. So let's weigh our options.

Arasaka? The megacorp I stole from. That's what got me into this mess. They're just as likely to backstab or turn me into a lab rat. Trusting them seems smart. Fuck those guys. They can burn with the city. Burn all the things. My tropical paradise awaits. Night City does not need to exist in that equation. Nor does Arasaka. Nah, let's break into their tower and take whatever the hell we want. The little cupcakes can't stop me. I'm the Terminator.

Rogue? The Nomads? Well, the plan of a tropical island paradise doesn't care. Either works. Although, I am on team Nomad. Do I really want to put them in harms way? Plus, Rogue and Johnny have a better understanding of Arasaka tower. Since, you know, they've done this before. They did fail but didn't have the Terminator along. We will make it work. Rogue it is. Let's do this thing. And Weyland. Don't forget that beautiful Jamaican whirlwind of destruction.

But wait... What if there is more in play here? What if.... What if that call recipient is supposed to be a snowflake representative of some theme? If so, what does Rogue represent? Fame and glory? Oh, well, I've already spent 30 minutes trying to decide. Screw it. Let's stick to the original selection. Let's do this thing Weyland. Rogue, you devil you. You've had these neat toys at the push of a button all along? Get to the choppa. Man oh man that ride to the tower was a cinematic masterpiece. Well played CDPR. You nailed that part.

In the tower we go. Kill a dozen or so Arasaka guards protecting invaluable tech. Surprise, Smasher. Wait, who the fuck is Smasher? Oh, right. Tin man. The nemesis of Johnny. The big bad who had a one liner about slabs of meat written for him. Out of a bush he comes. That bastard is always hiding in the bushes. Oh no, Rogue!!!. Well that's unfortunate. Thankfully I only just met her.

The epic battle begins. Whoops, Smasher got stuck on a rock. Let's LoS him while he indiscriminately fires at the objects I am putting between us. Step out, pop, pop, pop. Step back behind the protective barrier. Rinse/repeat. He's almost down, we're doing it. Hmm, this isn't satisfying. I can't just shoot him over and over. No, I can't let a rock take my glory. Out come the Mantis Blades. I want to see the look in his eyes up close and personal. Jump out, bum rush him, stabby stabby. Die motherfucker. Damn, that was a little anticlimatic. Oh well, big bad down.

Mikoshi, we've arrived. Rogue, we did it. Oh wait, you're dead. Weyland, we did it. Alt, rejoice. Into Cyberland whilst riding a Cyber Unicorn. "I removed Johnny from you V". Victory. Play the Final Fantasy battle victory music. We're almost to retirement. "Wait, I forgot you were human V". What the fuck Alt? How the hell could you possibly forget that part? We still got a ways before Skynet. So 6 months with body or, uh, what exactly? Do I remain in Cyberland with my trusty Unicorn or do I like, merge with you? What does it all mean Alt?

Well, 6 months is maybe enough time. A solution might still be out there somewhere. The tropical paradise isn't lost. 6 months of tropical paradise retirement seems more valuable than a life-time of Night City. Tossing aside my humanity for immortality? Not even in the thought process. Of course, it's really up to Johnny. He's actually in control now. Johnny, gimme my body. "Okay V, it was a fun trip". Bye Johnny, I'll remember you for some interval of time. I promise.

Now we're at the epilogue. Wake up. Ooh, penthouse. Nice. Judy? Hi Judy. "V we're breaking up". Huh? "You won't talk to me and I want to leave NC". But... I can't talk to you. There isn't an option for it. What the hell is going on here? I romanced Judy expecting to leave NC with her. 6 months might still be enough to find a solution in a foreign land far, far away. Alright, fine. There goes that relationship. I only knew Judy for a couple weeks so I guess it's good to get out early.

Surprise. You own the Afterlife. Woooo. Best merc in all the land. Uh, nope. Tropical island. Stay on point. I don't really... want the Afterlife. Maybe I can sell it to further the tropical island goals. Throw money at someone to find a cure? I heard Militech isn't friendly with Arasaka. How abouts we pawn that puppy off to them and throw in everything we know about the internal politics of Arasaka as icing on top? Surely Militech could use this information and help us out for it. I think they even have a tower next to the one I just ransacked. Maybe the Nomads have options? We'll see when we meet them.

V, go meet this mysterious fella to get another job. Okay, maybe this guy knows something. Let's meet him. Blue Eyes? Hey buddy. Space and Crystal Palace? Uh, why? I guess those could lead to something of value. A potential cure even. I don't have much choice but let's arbitrarily decide what it all means outside of the game in my head. The imagination. That thing I can use to arbitrarily change any detail I want in my head for every game with a story ever created.

And here we get to the real kick in the balls. Leave with the Nomads? Nope. Can't do that. Keeping things with Judy going? As mentioned, can't do that either. You can't leave with the Nomads, Judy wants out of NC. While you can exit the atmosphere the Nomads are the only exit strategy for the city. You just busted into a megacorp tower and smashed faces to dust on a whim but a border wall is an insurmountable challenge. Very large walls work. Remember the Great Wall of China?

Sorry for the long story. Getting to the short version.... Immortality was an afterthought for 100 percent of my playthrough. If I could pick any "theme" and say it feels like the best fit for my view of the story it would be one of survival. Nearly the entire story post-Heist, or reason my V performed any of the steps encountered during the journey, is to survive and make it another day. It's important to note a variety of other themes could sit here. Immortality is one of them.

In regards to how this fits into the actual thread topic. I don't know how a continuation can work for me given how this played out. I could move details around in my head to minimize the dissonance and impact of being barred from desired choice pairings. It still pissed me off. It was irritating to feel forced into doing this. I'm not sure I can get past it.

It is directly established with the existence of Mikoshi tech. That's what it is. You "Secure Your Soul" by becoming a digital construct like Johnny. That's not "interpretation" -- it's clearly and directly defined by the game.

It's questionable because the game does a poor job of sealing the deal for V specifically. Sacrificing humanity for immortality certainly could fit there. It's a good bet including that theme in the mix was a goal. Claiming it can fit and claiming it's the only fit are two very different claims.

By the way, the secure your soul program isn't about immortality. It's about exploitation. The Relic and entire concept of digital engrams is in part about immortality. Those aren't one trick ponies. They have many applications.

Those weren't directed at your comments. For the "Let's just ignore the story and do it differently," I'm addressing the general consensus among people that want to say the story is unqualified or forced. I argue it's not -- it's inherent in the arc created. "Changing it" isn't really possible -- not without disqualifying what has been strongly established.

Let's go with this explanation. A literary theme explored for thousands of years must be handled the same way, every time, without fail. Let's also assume this is the story in the game. It can still create the sense for the player they've been boxed into a corner. It's inherent to the arc, as you say. In an interactive video game with a partial focus in choices and consequences. Think about the decision to use such a story in such a game for a moment.

Personally, I don't think the game was about the quest for immortality because it wasn't definitively about any given theme. Instead the game provides a framework of many themes, each consistently explored at various points throughout the game, and offers the player opportunities to decide how they wish to view them. How they fit into the overall story. The main driving force of the story. It's not unquestionably about any one of those themes. It could be about any of them.

That's hard to get right. It's difficult to maintain direction with so many moving parts while also providing the flexibility for the player to decide what it means to them. No matter what you have to admire CDPR for trying. Unfortunately this is where it didn't work all the way throughout for me. At times it worked brilliantly. In others it didn't work at all. It may have worked brilliantly all the way through for some. That's great. I'm not one of them.

 

[GogRelvas]

Honestly, difficult to say. Game is going to be a classic, perhaps controversial one but it definitely is going to be one once they smooth out certain technical issues some people will love it even more, as there were a lot of posts during early days saying "the best game I have ever played". It's going to continue to have appeal and in long term, they should just keep doing what they do. Then how much pressure there is and possible influence of that... Then management matters. I don't know if you checked the posts I linked to part of my reply to SigilFey but maybe check them out... I added a link I forgot. But someone had to have brains and guts to greenlit all that and all things like that is what makes CP 2077 to stand out from most of other games (the Outer Worlds is only contender in that sense really) and now it's a matter if who ever stepped in those shoes has same brain and guts and vision for CDRP to continue to do what they did with base game to expansions. Because this all Covid and that, will be over, graphics get outdated but things like animation (not just body language but including facial animation, micro expressions and all that) and voice acting and writing, that combination won't get outdated anytime soon and my best guess is that good expansion would build from those strong points.

They could try to change their story within story approach for sequel, I mean Outer Worlds got away with that. Then it also looks like core audience don't talk about certain things, real climax of game so to say where it comes to topic of loss of shared reality is a real world thing, and that didn't perhaps help that game to reach new audiences where I think it could have been very well received but I don't know really.

But CP 2077 and expansion(s) IMO they should just keep going and doing what they do, because that's awesome.

I haven't yet. I'll save now the links. My comings here have been very chaotic in terms of when I come, been doing it on small intervals from irl things, so sorry. Thanks.

 

[Yllana_Ardais]

The theme is there. Whether the theme is there isn't under question. It's whether the game narrative is intended to primarily be about that theme. Is it the entire premise and purpose of the story? How does V feel about all of this? There are many other themes in the game. It's a long list. Your examples provide supporting evidence immortality is one of them.

Let's try it this way. I'll present how I saw the game and you can point out the errors.

Spoiler: Warning. Text Wall with Spoilers

SNIP

Spoiler: Warning. Text Wall with Spoilers

I love your wall of text summary. Felt similar to my playthrough, except I stupidly went back 20 hours to get the Reaper ending and romanced Kerry. Everytime a quest ended in a dead end and I was railroaded into making decisions I did not want to make, I was getting more suspicious. And then my V turned into a gloryhungry asshole, even though I tried to play him as a down-to-earth survivor for the whole game. The lack of real choices and the arbitary railroading (The Phonecall) just suck.

 

[SigilFey]

I wouldn't say your point of view and yours, CS554 are very different overall; more the "deconstruct" term discussion so common in the arts world. I personally prefer reconstruct as a lot (most?) Ideas have been explored, we can ultimately find our authentic way of pondering upon and expressing them, inline with the available technology and influenced by it's contemporary society, culture, zeitgeist.

Not saying are views are wildly off, but "deconstructing" something like an established theme, genre, motif, trope, or aesthetic requires it to be re-imagined in a new way. When a piece simply utilizes existing elements, point for point, that's not "deconstructing" it. That's just using and honoring it.

A deconstruction of the "Quest For Immortality" would be something like the main character being immortal from the beginning. Or the main character being an AI that's not really alive anyway. Oh...wait...that's Pinocchio...and Peter and Wendy...and I, Robot...and any story that deals with a divine being, fallen angel, demon, etc. being forced to become mortal. Been there, done that already, I guess. There may be a fair few examples of actual deconstructions out there.

I don't think Cyberpunk 2077 deconstructs anything. I think it very faithfully follows the conventions of the established theme in a way that brings really heavy weight and grit to just what the world of Cyberpunk could mean. A world that has truly chosen technology over humanity.

And I think it's fantastically told.

Damn. I can't really disagree with any of that. Jesus really IS in the toast...

I still don't think that works completely though because after the prologue that's no longer what the story is focussed on.
The prologue totally follows that arc, sure - they're shooting for immortality, they reach the proverbial fountain of youth, but then Jackie dies and V ends up with a couple weeks left. They could've done an epilogue right after that and rolled the credits then and there.

But they don't; instead the meat of the story begins and it's no longer about achieving immortality. The goal has completely changed. Now what's the point in doing that with your story if it's not going to make a significant difference? I mean, here's the timeline with a 6 month ending:

(Prologue) = quest for immortality --> jackie dies and V's lifespan is cut to a couple weeks (/prologue)
(Bulk of story) = quest to find a cure ---> ends up with 6 months instead (/bulk of story)

To me, that means V's practically ended up right back to where the main story started. And for what? What's the point then?

Has it? Changed? (I think this is the part that players really don't like, despite the beautifully slick way it's worked into the plot.)

Firstly, V "chooses" to grasp at immortality. Knowingly or unknowingly...for whatever reasons of their own...V chooses to accompany Jackie on the heist. They choose to grab the bioshard. They choose to install it. Here's the rub: it doesn't matter what their "intentions" were. The world doesn't care. The world isn't interested in whether or not everything is okay for poor, little V. The best of intentions don't mean jack-all. V inserted the chip. They inserted a "living" engram of Johnny Silverhand into the spinal tap at the base of their skull and uploaded it directly into their brain.

Case. Closed.

V's fate is now sealed. This is the magic of the story being told. V now has a limited amount of time to decide who they really are and what they really want. Their fleeting, remaining months will be spent proving who they really are to themselves. This is the human condition. No matter the choice, though, V, as everyone has known them, is dead. So...

Either way...death awaits...but never glory.

(^ That's how it always works in the quest for immortality.)

I get to the part where Jackie mentions reaching the big leagues. Queue the eye roll. The big leagues, the tippy top. Yes Jackie. You do you.

YYYUUUP! I was the same.

Actually, for the sake of avoiding spoilers, let me just address all other concerns at once.

V (you) went on the heist. You got the biochip. You inserted it. You "played with the gods' toys"...and guess what happened? I don't think that people really understand what the theme is. Granted, it's evolved over the millennia, but the core focus remains the same:
We are mortal.
Mortals are not immortals.
To grasp at immortality -- wittingly or unwittingly -- is to unmake ourselves.

Call it "hubris", call it "pride", call it "lack of vision" -- call it whatever you may choose -- the simple fact is the same. Humans are limited, vulnerable realities. Grab at fire, and you'll get burned...even if you've never seen fire before. Poke a bear in the eye, and you'll get mauled...even if you have no idea what a bear is. Dive deeply enough into the ocean, and you'll drown...even if you're "sure" you can hold your breath. Etc.

There have been many authors, philosophers, and mystics that have challenged this over the centuries since the first human came up with the idea for a pyramid.

They're all dead now.

It's questionable because the game does a poor job of sealing the deal for V specifically.

V is human.

Let's go with this explanation. A literary theme explored for thousands of years must be handled the same way, every time, without fail. Let's also assume this is the story in the game. It can still create the sense for the player they've been boxed into a corner. It's inherent to the arc, as you say. In an interactive video game with a partial focus in choices and consequences. Think about the decision to use such a story in such a game for a moment.

Why? That would be hideously boring. Hence, many pieces have explored the exact same theme from many different perspectives. Perspectives that span cultures, religions, and philosophies, but still retain the core message. That's what we refer to in literature as a "universal truth".

Why would I not not choose something so well-established over thousands of years of learning and growth as a foundation for a new experience?

Personally, I don't think the game was about the quest for immortality because it wasn't definitively about any given theme. Instead the game provides a framework of many themes, each consistently explored at various points throughout the game, and offers the player opportunities to decide how they wish to view them. How they fit into the overall story. The main driving force of the story. It's not unquestionably about any one of those themes. It could be about any of them.

That's hard to get right. It's difficult to maintain direction with so many moving parts while also providing the flexibility for the player to decide what it means to them. No matter what you have to admire CDPR for trying. Unfortunately this is where it didn't work all the way throughout for me. At times it worked brilliantly. In others it didn't work at all. It may have worked brilliantly all the way through for some. That's great. I'm not one of them.

Well, here, I think you're hyper-focusing on our discussion. I will argue until I'm dark blue in the face that the main theme of Cyberpunk 2077 is "The Quest For Immortality". There's waaaaaay too much of the early and late game that focus exclusively on death, cheating death, and using what time we have left.

But stories this big do not focus on one and only one theme. That's something for short and short-short stories, one-act plays, short films, or video games that can be completed in 1-4 hours. If you're looking for brilliant examples of games with singular themes, check out Far: Lone Sails, The Stanley Parable, or Another World. All games that track a single theme with moving precision from beginning to end.

Most bigger pieces, literature in whatever form, will highlight many themes -- just for the sake of variety and world-building. These things help to endear the world to the audience and develop a connection that will (hopefully) help the main theme to resonate more strongly. Those minor themes are meant to connect the audience to the medium, suspend disbelief, generate sympathy for character, and make the message of the major theme hit more powerfully.

But, as is also human condition, if I plop Shakespeare in front of an unexposed audience, they may well misinterpret it as Disney. (Bill was the "Disney" of his time -- he was not Disney.)

 

[CS554]

Not saying are views are wildly off, but "deconstructing" something like an established theme, genre, motif, trope, or aesthetic requires it to be re-imagined in a new way. When a piece simply utilizes existing elements, point for point, that's not "deconstructing" it. That's just using and honoring it.

A deconstruction of the "Quest For Immortality" would be something like the main character being immortal from the beginning. Or the main character being an AI that's not really alive anyway. Oh...wait...that's Pinocchio...and Peter and Wendy...and I, Robot...and any story that deals with a divine being, fallen angel, demon, etc. being forced to become mortal. Been there, done that already, I guess. There may be a fair few examples of actual deconstructions out there.

I suppose that's one way to look at it but really...

Ideals

Jackie's goal to becoming a legend. There's Misty, he could have done different things with her, but he chose to become a legend of the Afterlife. In practice he left behind no real legacy.

Takemura's loyalty. There's very good discussion about this between V and him, particularly "...we can't fix everything at once.." This ideal does cost him, his life. He leaves nothing behind him

Joshua Stephenson, religion, forgiving, self-sacrifice, nobody cares about him

• Person who wants him dead is under impression Stephenson is going to walk, when he isn't, method of execution is changed, he is just obsessed with getting revenge, his goal.
• For producer he is a mean to an end.
• For security guard it's just another job.
• Family Joshua visits, it's a disaster they don't want anything to do with him
• Protesters are against producing BD, they see that as sacrilege and are outraged that it's being made to begin with
• Audience, we get very good view for that demand for more and more outrageous content, market that black market BD's meet with their super freaky stuff, they don't gave about Joshua, they care about access to outrageous shit in legal ways.
• So Joshua himself, deluded or not does that even matter? No it doesn't.

Transhumanism / philosophy, Saburo Arasaka. Old man who can't let go from old grudges. I hinted about this several times but where we leave in Devil, we notice that technology even granting immortality, doesn't solve problems of human condition but introduces new ones.

Love, love conquers all, except it doesn't. Rogue, master of survival turns to this silly girl when Johnny comes into picture, that costs her, her life.

Silverhand, he see the world in 2077 and admits himself, he didn't achieve fucking anything with his relentless rebellion which cost him his life (and several others), where we go to in lack of better expression to next ideal...

It goes beyond exploring this through death: Silverhand, Silverhand fan and Kerry's dialogues are about Power to the People via popular culture. People may feel that say, rock music can change the world. No it doesn't... In the end people have common goals or they don't. Popular culture can be there somewhere and there's association with Woodstock / Vietnam war for boomer generation, collapse of the Berlin Wall, Soviet Union these are for generation X, great generational experiences. But no, Woodstock didn't end Vietnam war, neither did rock music collapsed the Berlin Wall. From very recent history, Afganistan. In the end people have common goals or not. Popular music is taking what people think, projecting that back to audience, give words to thoughts, concerns, goals, etc and then it's about feelings, but no feelings alone won't change the word, no matter how strong they may be. That's not to say feelings aren't important, but line where things can become exploitative may blurry with, things that are in the end just imagined up.

So what these things have in common? Artificial constructs in people's head?

Search sucks for finding content from older posts so those examples are only from the top of my head. I suppose we could have academic debate about definition of deconstruction but no, we won't!

GogRelvas brought these gaps into discussion. I don't think age necessarily has that much to do with it, but regardless it's perfectly possible to like creative work for very different reasons. What means mature to us, that varies and there are different aspects with different appeal to different crowds. There are bridges too far and I feel a bit sad though, when I'm in situation where I'm unable to communicate, what made game work for me, what people like me except from media, be that movie, novel or video game to make it worthwhile.

 

[GogRelvas]

I suppose that's one way to look at it but really...

Ideals

Jackie's goal to becoming a legend. There's Misty, he could have done different things with her, but he chose to become a legend of the Afterlife. In practice he left behind no real legacy.

Takemura's loyalty. There's very good discussion about this between V and him, particularly "...we can't fix everything at once.." This ideal does cost him, his life. He leaves nothing behind him

Joshua Stephenson, religion, forgiving, self-sacrifice, nobody cares about him

• Person who wants him dead is under impression Stephenson is going to walk, when he isn't, method of execution is changed, he is just obsessed with getting revenge, his goal.
• For producer he is a mean to an end.
• For security guard it's just another job.
• Family Joshua visits, it's a disaster they don't want anything to do with him
• Protesters are against producing BD, they see that as sacrilege and are outraged that it's being made to begin with
• Audience, we get very good view for that demand for more and more outrageous content, market that black market BD's meet with their super freaky stuff, they don't gave about Joshua, they care about access to outrageous shit in legal ways.
• So Joshua himself, deluded or not does that even matter? No it doesn't.

Transhumanism / philosophy, Saburo Arasaka. Old man who can't let go from old grudges. I hinted about this several times but where we leave in Devil, we notice that technology even granting immortality, doesn't solve problems of human condition but introduces new ones.

Love, love conquers all, except it doesn't. Rogue, master of survival turns to this silly girl when Johnny comes into picture, that costs her, her life.

Silverhand, he see the world in 2077 and admits himself, he didn't achieve fucking anything with his relentless rebellion which cost him his life (and several others), where we go to in lack of better expression to next ideal...

It goes beyond exploring this through death: Silverhand, Silverhand fan and Kerry's dialogues are about Power to the People via popular culture. People may feel that say, rock music can change the world. No it doesn't... In the end people have common goals or they don't. Popular culture can be there somewhere and there's association with Woodstock / Vietnam war for boomer generation, collapse of the Berlin Wall, Soviet Union these are for generation X, great generational experiences. But no, Woodstock didn't end Vietnam war, neither did rock music collapsed the Berlin Wall. From very recent history, Afganistan. In the end people have common goals or not. Popular music is taking what people think, projecting that back to audience, give words to thoughts, concerns, goals, etc and then it's about feelings, but no feelings alone won't change the word, no matter how strong they may be. That's not to say feelings aren't important, but line where things can become exploitative may blurry with, things that are in the end just imagined up.

So what these things have in common? Artificial constructs in people's head?

Search sucks for finding content from older posts so those examples are only from the top of my head. I suppose we could have academic debate about definition of deconstruction but no, we won't!

GogRelvas brought these gaps into discussion. I don't think age necessarily has that much to do with it, but regardless it's perfectly possible to like creative work for very different reasons. What means mature to us, that varies and there are different aspects with different appeal to different crowds. There are bridges too far and I feel a bit sad though, when I'm in situation where I'm unable to communicate, what made game work for me, what people like me except from media, be that movie, novel or video game to make it worthwhile.

Finally read your previously linked posts and glad I did CS554. I read recently about existencial depression, because I believe I'm going through one and it definitelly it relates to why CP77 draws me so much and at other moments I just need escapism from that reality and I wish I had farcry 6 (when it's cheaper) so I can go bring (in my mind) capitalism down. What is a pity is that the game (CP77) is regarded little as that, and even on its official forum is impossible to make comparisons to real life political situations (political in the sense that anything related to human organization or interaction).
What I mentioned as generational gap is only a simplification. It doesn't need to depend on age. The way prople overall comunicate has changed so much on the past 10 years and it affects older people, if anything older people can remember a different time whereas really young people might normalize even more situations that have always been there for them.
I love in this game how people are normalized to some very extreme situations and values, should make us think what horrors do we have normalized today; we're not so different, except our horrors are familiar to us; "it's natural and won't ever be different"

Post automatically merged: Dec 16, 2021

Regarding this I realize the first playthrough I couldn't help but have this outsider look on the fictional world - despite growing up in the streets my V was already very aware of how the world operates when meeting Dex, when Johnny talked anti-corpo I wanted to say hallelujah but on following playthrough I was able to roleplay in this world better. Street kid V gets his view of the world from crazy small and crazy crazy screamsheets and the people around him (mostly poor and surviving people); nomads have a much more stable (family oriented) upbringing andbest education because it is so grounded on its members growth. Corpos are brainwashed constantly so their view of the world is whatever their company's is. And that makes the playthrough much more immersive for me (as street kid only, unfortunately), it made me look back on when I wasn't so thoughtful and aware of these matters myself, and the journey through that awareness.

 

[CS554]

Finally read your previously linked posts and glad I did CS554. I read recently about existencial depression, because I believe I'm going through one and it definitelly it relates to why CP77 draws me so much and at other moments I just need escapism from that reality and I wish I had farcry 6 (when it's cheaper) so I can go bring (in my mind) capitalism down. What is a pity is that the game (CP77) is regarded little as that, and even on its official forum is impossible to make comparisons to real life political situations (political in the sense that anything related to human organization or interaction).
What I mentioned as generational gap is only a simplification. It doesn't need to depend on age. The way prople overall comunicate has changed so much on the past 10 years and it affects older people, if anything older people can remember a different time whereas really young people might normalize situations that have always been there for them.
I love in this game how people are normalized to some very extreme situations and values, should make us think what horrors do we have normalized today; we're not so different, except our horrors are familiar to us; "it's natural and won't ever be different"

I do hope you found some relief from summary of studies posted in Dabrowski’s theory / CP 2077 topic. as author has worked with issue and his account from people finding solutions is based on solid data It's I think best there is and while I'm not such gifted individual myself, from what I have observed, family is mentioned in study, that I have seen has worked for many. Danger of becoming abused, that's real too because practical possibilities appear very different but in reality, not everybody actually believes, say agenda they appear to be behind. Close connections are important in that regard.

What comes to gifted young adults, for my position what I could do I always kept reminding for them to make sure that this world is something to them too, have a future. And there's this rule in plane travel, air mask, always equip it to yourself first. It's because you are not in position to help anyone, unless you take care of yourself too. I wish I had better options to build networks for them but in the end, some people tend go where ever they want to as they can and that's I guess is how it has always been.

While I see your frustration, there's that as long as there has been people, there's been trade. You might want to check history further back and outside of economical theories find out about Magna Carta and impact of Martin Luther's work beyond his role in religion. Access to information, for society. We have these dramatic works about riots and falling order, perhaps a atomic bombs, but if you look at things where real progress was made and cornerstones for what we have today, you may get a quite different picture. It's just that while these things shaped what we have today, what's more dramatical than that in real world terms, it's also that there are no blowing things up, war hero story... no, there isn't that aspect. So they are unappealing in terms of popular culture.

I also recommend reading Cristopher Lasch's The Culture of Narcissism while it's older book, for me it was one that finally gave me answers, funny thing, I'm northern European, but things covered in that book, they were and are, factors in Europe too. There's one thing, though. He has this idea of "better time" when distance between social classes supposedly was almost non existent but while there is some truth to that, he IMO is reaching there. There are things that are very true, a factory worker, a doctor, an artist could have had habit to share the same table and throw parties still back in the 80's where I live. But lengths Lasch takes that, expanding that, I think that's perhaps weakest part of his research.

I also found Robert D Putnams Bowling Alone very good read (note: article in the Atlantic in my previous post) and I'm actually slowly reading that again. It's the same as with Lasch's work. American authors describing American problems, but I see exactly the same thing happening in our society but I don't think this is something limited to here and North America at all.

To keep this relevant to game and topic.

If you read Putnam's work mentioned, you may notice something funny in game. Where's the social fiber? So there's no social capital. Where are they going with CP 2077? I don't know but if they wanted to explore real life things, they can do that in the Night City, play scenarios Outer Worlds did but more. I'd play that for sure.

Meanwhile, in the end it's work of fiction, excellent one, though depending from where people come from... there's more or less room to interpret things, thinking of Star at least, journey of V and player, artificial constructs, fairytales, whatever. Sometimes it comes possible to get to real work with real things, only once those tales are destroyed. So where that leaves us with V, what I think even being an older guy. "Time to grow the fuck up Samurai!"

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Actually, for the sake of avoiding spoilers, let me just address all other concerns at once.

V (you) went on the heist. You got the biochip. You inserted it. You "played with the gods' toys"...and guess what happened? I don't think that people really understand what the theme is. Granted, it's evolved over the millennia, but the core focus remains the same:
We are mortal.
Mortals are not immortals.
To grasp at immortality -- wittingly or unwittingly -- is to unmake ourselves.

Call it "hubris", call it "pride", call it "lack of vision" -- call it whatever you may choose -- the simple fact is the same. Humans are limited, vulnerable realities. Grab at fire, and you'll get burned...even if you've never seen fire before. Poke a bear in the eye, and you'll get mauled...even if you have no idea what a bear is. Dive deeply enough into the ocean, and you'll drown...even if you're "sure" you can hold your breath. Etc.

The point of providing that text wall was to say the game appeared to be less about some pre-determined story. It hinged on how the player received it.

This idea immortality is off limits so chasing it will result in punishment and failure. The idea even if it's achievable it cannot occur without transformation. Transformation where the "human" ceases to be entirely human (become a vampire, become a god, become digital, etc.). Yeah, it's often the case both of those characteristics are involved.

This theme of immortality may be there. That theme may be recurring throughout the game. Events throughout and details here or there may point to it. It's not the only subject you could say this about. There are other themes with this recurring presence. To say one of them was the most important and the game had to reach specific conclusions because of it is a little convenient.

V is human.

And? V might chase literal immortality as a digital construct and lose what makes them human (again, depending on what going digital means). They might also throw in the towel and prematurely kill themselves. Chase figurative immortality and remain human. Ride off into the desert with their friends, family and love interest without so much as a thought about immortality. You could even stretch it to say V isn't concerned with figurative immortality in endings where it appears they're setup to be.

I fail to see how all the story conclusions are unquestionably about attempts to achieve immortality. Deciding between immortality at the cost of their humanity or humanity at the cost of this quest for immortality. That decision may not be in the picture based on the reception of the narrative.

Why? That would be hideously boring. Hence, many pieces have explored the exact same theme from many different perspectives. Perspectives that span cultures, religions, and philosophies, but still retain the core message. That's what we refer to in literature as a "universal truth".

Why would I not not choose something so well-established over thousands of years of learning and growth as a foundation for a new experience?

You probably won't like my answer. As you said yourself this quest for immortality tends to play out the same way every time, without fail. It's predictable. The details may shift around but the concept tends to be employed in a rigid fashion. It's not flexible because of that predictability. If the goal is to tell a linear, predictable story and maintain interest with the nuance and details then it's a good choice. It's arguably a poor one when freedom of choice is allegedly a focal point. Make your choice but you're destined to end up here.

Well, here, I think you're hyper-focusing on our discussion. I will argue until I'm dark blue in the face that the main theme of Cyberpunk 2077 is "The Quest For Immortality". There's waaaaaay too much of the early and late game that focus exclusively on death, cheating death, and using what time we have left.

I'll maintain you're in a superposition of being both right and wrong. Given the game events you're right to say the game is about a quest for immortality. Where I think you're wrong is to say it's the only possibility. I find it very difficult to believe the game ended up in a state where it could be received in so many different ways by accident. It's by design.

But stories this big do not focus on one and only one theme. That's something for short and short-short stories, one-act plays, short films, or video games that can be completed in 1-4 hours. If you're looking for brilliant examples of games with singular themes, check out Far: Lone Sails, The Stanley Parable, or Another World. All games that track a single theme with moving precision from beginning to end.

Most bigger pieces, literature in whatever form, will highlight many themes -- just for the sake of variety and world-building. These things help to endear the world to the audience and develop a connection that will (hopefully) help the main theme to resonate more strongly. Those minor themes are meant to connect the audience to the medium, suspend disbelief, generate sympathy for character, and make the message of the major theme hit more powerfully.

While true I don't think all of the other themes in this game were secondary. There are at least 3-4 themes recurring throughout the entire game. Over, and over, and over again. Yeah, it's a little strange. It's not "normal". Stories tend to have a primary subject. Regardless, it plays out as if there are multiple themes spanning the entire game and any one of them could be the driving force of the story.

 

[zqfmgb123]

I really think CDPR should just cut their losses and just work on an entirely different game.