This deck ended up being one of my most easily defeatable after modifying my own deck the other week. That said: This is why I hate these stupid, pointless challenges.
OG.laloquaint;n10697561 said:
While Henselt is a rather unconventional leader and maybe could use a reevaluation, he was quite fine until Winch came along. But yeah that card is kinda broken and should be changed or removed, personally i'd like to see it silver with all options, similar to monster's nest.
Yeah, been seeing a lot of Henselt. Waiting to see if it passes with the challenge before calling it an issue ... always wait a few days for the meta to settle after every change. Particularly if it's caused by a challenge rather than a shift in balance.
I agree that Winch is sort of iffy, but without gimmicky Circle/Decoy plays all Henselt can get is three copies to complement the lone Machine on board, or am I missing something?
Shame I couldn't play the past few days, would've tried my old crappy Sweers Spy deck. Maybe even a dedicated Scorch deck since all those targets will be yummily lined up at the same power.
I agree that Winch is sort of iffy, but without gimmicky Circle/Decoy plays all Henselt can get is three copies to complement the lone Machine on board, or am I missing something?
Shame I couldn't play the past few days, would've tried my old crappy Sweers Spy deck. Maybe even a dedicated Scorch deck since all those targets will be yummily lined up at the same power.
NomanPeopled;n10699261 said:
You do. Winch allows to create a machine you have 3 copies of in your deck, which means you can play 3 machines with Henselt (before Winch it was max 2).
Furthermore, you can create up to 3 copies of the same machine, put them back in the deck with Nenneke and bring them out with Henselt along with the other 3 copies which were originally in your deck. However, that is pretty hard to do (you have to be lucky with winch targets, and your opponent can remove the machine you are going to use Henselt on). That's why you usually need Shani for this to work. But when it works in R3 it's game over for your opponent.
Esmer;n10699341 said:
Not hard enough, there aren't many machines in game atm so getting 3 or 4 of the SAME machine with Winch happens waaaay too often. Even when you are aware of his strategy and keep a solid removal like Mandrake (counters Shani aswell) to deny Henselt they can still reliably pull another of the same machine with Triss.
NomanPeopled;n10699261 said:
With Neneke + 3 wench you can get 5 of the same machine pulled out of your deck with Henselt. Bit excessive really though because 3/4 is plenty to win a round.
Scorch is useless (they run it) because all of their units are tiny unless you play the eithne scorch spam deck where your biggest unit is like 4
My biggest beef with Henslet isn't even wench its the dun banner + spy interaction. They say "you can play around dun banner" but it isn't possible when you go first and then they flip a 15 point spy onto your board.
Ah thanks, I thought I must be missing something. A weird thing to have missed after last weekend, too ...Esmer;n10699341 said:
You forgot triss can also pull a wench, so that is 4 wench + 3 machine copies, plus summoning circle. And dun banner Calvary plus silver spies for even more shenanigans.
if CDPR is looking into slave driver and eleven scouts, it makes only sense they should look into wench.
if CDPR is looking into slave driver and eleven scouts, it makes only sense they should look into wench.
There's a fairly good chance winch will become arena-only like some of the other create cards.
That's close to what I had in mind.liezldiezldee;n10699551 said:
Mind you, I didn't mean to say it would dominate Henselt, just that I'd have welcomed the opportunity to dust off an old deck and test it in a shifted meta.
That seems rather more ideal than what I'd expect from a real game. To be sure though, when that plan succeeds only partially it's still a huge power play.dragoonzen;n10699671 said:
I do agree that the create cards are a a design issue, regardless of whether Machines Henselt is too powerful or not.
I'll see if they're still out in droves on the weekend. I might give that 10-Thunder abomination of mine a shot.
dragoonzen;n10699671 said:
But they are not nearly the same. Slave driver and elven scouts are units, they create bronzes +1 power and in two bodies. A much much better comparison is with Doppler, which is a special card that is even played in some decks, but no one complains about.
And no one would ever complain about winches if not for Henselt.
Machines were the best deck in Gwent even before Winch. Henselt's ability is really powerful as it is. And I've played them a lot before Winch as well, back when it had Kaedweni Siege Supports.
Point is, your post on the previous page is a wrong. It's not the only thing that requires thoughtfulness in playing Machines. You are not removing the archetype entirely, you are not even making it particularly weaker. All you are doing by removing create cards (doppler can go as well but that's got such a small chance of giving you a 4th bronze of the same kind it's practically negligent) from constructed deck formats is respecting the limits you (as CDPR you) have put in the game. The limit of 3 bronzes. SDs can play QG better than QG decks, Dopplers can give you a 4th Mercenary/whatever, and most importantly, Winches can give you (very easily compared to the other create cards) a 4th machine of your choice.
The thing is, Machines are pretty powerful, I wouldn't say OP but definitely pretty good. My main problem is that we have an inconsistent game in our hands right now. What's the point of limiting Bronzes to a max of 3 copies if you can spawn a 4th one with no risk at all? Winch is such an awesome card not only because of Henselt but because it runs practically no risk. It's a "either you get a Machine target to bring in the swarm you have in the deck or it's still an 11 point play that synergizes". And the same goes to all cards that can override the bronze limit, with the possible exception of Nekker Warriors and SC for me (the former because it's very special to Monsters, and supports the whole swarm feeling that monsters are supposed to have, the latter because it is one silver card which requires a very specific condition and runs a great risk, in order to give you a good bronze from your deck).
Create was supposed to be "mainly for Arena" as the devs said because of its inconsistency and risk, and now it's turning out to be even more powerful than normal cards (considering Siege Supports, an excellent card in Machine decks got abandoned to make room for Winch, that says a lot). If it's not going out of constructed decks anytime soon, it should at least be unable to let you exceed the bronze limit of 3 copies in my opinion
TrompeLaMort;n10700041 said:
i hate doppler
pulling weather clears or hyper conditional super good bronzes out of your ass is a joke
ser2440;n10700171 said:
So you are proposing they remove new Triss from constructed as well? Because that is exactly what it does (and the only reason she is good, really): she gives players a way of breaking the 3-bronze limit.
If you do, well, most people will be completely against it, as she is often pointed as one of the best designs in recent Gwent, but at least you will be being consistent.
Henselt should be:
As for Winch, I think making it like this would prevent it from being so popular on constructed:
Winch would have to a be a Neutral card tho. Thinking it better, maybe not...
Choose a Bronze Machine or Kaedweni ally and play up to two copies of it from your deck.
As for Winch, I think making it like this would prevent it from being so popular on constructed:
Create a Bronze Machine. (Any faction)
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Well I don't like that she can do that, even though she is a pretty decent card. To be honest though she is only used that way in Henselt to give you a 4th Winch ( -_- ). Otherwise she usually plays Reconnaissance, and no deck that runs her also runs 3 Recons. It could be "Create a Bronze special card that you have less than 3 copies of, from either player's starting deck"
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Handbuff NG runs her (my version anyway). She's also quite important in Ocvist ST. Both not particularly present in the meta atm, admittedly.
She might easily turn out to be too powerful at some point though. Anything that can copy a particular effect can (Circle, Ithlinne, Operator, Yen:Con). At least she requires a bronze synergy that justifies sacrificing a gold slot.
Winch is more akin to Dwarven Agitator.
As an aside, while rez cards allow for more angles of attack than Winch does... they too effectively break the card limit.
I think CDPR is overdoing it with both tutors and rez cards, particularly in bronzes. I'd prefer redundancy-based consistency over both, at least on the current scale. (They'd have to make a lot more cards for that to work though.)
She might easily turn out to be too powerful at some point though. Anything that can copy a particular effect can (Circle, Ithlinne, Operator, Yen:Con). At least she requires a bronze synergy that justifies sacrificing a gold slot.
Winch is more akin to Dwarven Agitator.
As an aside, while rez cards allow for more angles of attack than Winch does... they too effectively break the card limit.
I think CDPR is overdoing it with both tutors and rez cards, particularly in bronzes. I'd prefer redundancy-based consistency over both, at least on the current scale. (They'd have to make a lot more cards for that to work though.)
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Henselt is beatable, even on redcoin... if you have a silver spy in your hand. If you don't, all they need to do is play their spy when you're 7 ahead, out come the cavalry and you're done. It's similar to the cleaver trick, but thanks to the bloody baron you can't just bleed henselt out round 2.