Why combat need an overhaul

[Mobster100]

Question: is mass killing in this manner fun at least? Or is it such a quick process that there's not even the glee of being an overpowered murder machine?

CP in general in my opinion is very fun, whether you kill them like this or not. But it does get a bit boring in the long run, also why I use assault rifle and a Silverhands pistol, and then I have a Smart sniper rifle, But I have legendary smart weapons that I don't use purely because I think they are slightly to OP, I have even considered to switch out the sniper rifle as well, but rarely use it.

I like the "real" firefights, with bullets flying, grenades being thrown (When it doesn't bug ). But as I mentioned in one of the earlier posts, my next play through will be with "normal" weapons only and no hack killing of enemies, simply because I think that will make the game a lot funnier for me personally or I might try a stealth build, again not using those things I mentioned above.

Whether its an overpowered murder machine I don't know, but you will quickly learn how to take out enemies as I show in the video without any risk. But my impression is that you can become pretty much as crazy using sniper rifles and smart weapons. My sniper rifle can easily crit for 15k, not on the skull ones, but it will almost one shot them, but again, Im not specced for these weapons, and it does give your position away at least, compared to just hacking them.

And you can use crafting as well, but that will require you to make it instantly or you will go nuts, it simply take to long to craft now otherwise.

How to do that you can see here, it's very easy, I wish I had known that when I started and honestly I think CDPR should have made it by default, until they can fix it correctly.

How to temporarily fix crafting

Crafting in CP is extremely time consuming and boring, especially with components as you have to do it one at the time and you need a lot of them. However inspired by another post I made of how to solve dodging. Can be found here, which will also show you how to edit the files...

forums.cdprojektred.com

 

[malikhis]

sorry if I disagree with you but in this case he is talking about a powerful skill, an ultimate that has no risks attached as far I can see. Normally in this kind of game a powerful skill has risks and rewards by which the choice to use it's weighted against some odds. If for example the penalty would be a long cool down, then using it to kill the first enemy you see might carry the risk of not having the skill ready in case you find yourself in a shitty situation later on. You can go by instinct and risk it or be more tactical about it, both ways are valid and have their payoff.

I just think it's more fun to play a game this way than rather constantly policing yourself in order to not use god modes at the first convenience.

Yeah, no. Too many of these people literally want a pure dark-souls type where everything is player skill and no RPG what-so-ever. That is what they're actually bitching about, that the game doesn't challenge their player-skills (hence dark-souls style combat) after they turn their RPG-character into a walking god of destruction. (Should also add that we have the converse, where people complain about bullet spounges because they want games based purely on player skill, not character skill)

If you cannot enjoy an RPG, stop playing them. The rest of us police ourselves, we make flawed characters instead of min-maxing everything to hell. Complaining that a RPG is "broken" because you min-maxed to hell is dumb.

 

[Smile_067]

If doing something makes the game too easy for you, stop doing it. Don't ruin the game for other people just because you want the game to be harder for yourself. It's an RPG, the game is as hard or easy as you make it for yourself... we don't need every game ever to be a dark souls clone.

Yeah, sure, let's pretend that CDPR didn't fuc** this up.
Hardest difficulty is a JOKE. The game needs balancing.

 

[xlawx]

If doing something makes the game too easy for you, stop doing it. Don't ruin the game for other people just because you want the game to be harder for yourself. It's an RPG, the game is as hard or easy as you make it for yourself... we don't need every game ever to be a dark souls clone.

You're misunderstanding. OP said, its on "Very Hard" mode. If you want the game not too hard, there is a difficulty choice.
On Normal Mode - you expect with the best quickhack to kill the elite enemy instantly.
On Very Hard Mode - you expect to be punished for trying cheesy tactic.

The difficulty is a choice of player, who defines fun. OP doesnt said, all difficulty must be hard like Dark Soul.

 

[jackie_wt]

The whole game need an overhaul

 

[strangerism]

Yeah, no. Too many of these people literally want a pure dark-souls type where everything is player skill and no RPG what-so-ever. That is what they're actually bitching about, that the game doesn't challenge their player-skills (hence dark-souls style combat) after they turn their RPG-character into a walking god of destruction. (Should also add that we have the converse, where people complain about bullet spounges because they want games based purely on player skill, not character skill)

If you cannot enjoy an RPG, stop playing them. The rest of us police ourselves, we make flawed characters instead of min-maxing everything to hell. Complaining that a RPG is "broken" because you min-maxed to hell is dumb.

I have not quite understood if you agreed or disagreed on my point. You are also broadening the argument also, nobody talked of making a based of players skills, or Dark Souls game, etc, actually on the contrary I want this game to stay rpg-esque as much as possible with possibilities to create OP builds if one choose so. I only supported the idea that certain skill in the netrunning play style need to be rebalanced a bit in order to not make that playstyle too trivial as it seems to be now (I have not played it yet). Also another example, doesn't make any sense to reach 100% critical chance on weapons which is possible right now without any drawbacks (I dunno limit critical damage cap in that case). I also understand that chasing the perfect balance is pointless in a single rpg, no system is perfect and there is always a path to god status.

 

[Mobster100]

Yeah, no. Too many of these people literally want a pure dark-souls type where everything is player skill and no RPG what-so-ever. That is what they're actually bitching about, that the game doesn't challenge their player-skills (hence dark-souls style combat) after they turn their RPG-character into a walking god of destruction. (Should also add that we have the converse, where people complain about bullet spounges because they want games based purely on player skill, not character skill)

If you cannot enjoy an RPG, stop playing them. The rest of us police ourselves, we make flawed characters instead of min-maxing everything to hell. Complaining that a RPG is "broken" because you min-maxed to hell is dumb.

Don't think that is correct, first of all I have never played Dark soul and I rarely play FP shooters. From the beginning of my playthrough I haven't cared about my gear in a great way, if I don't like the look of something I don't use it, doesn't matter if its legendary or not. I don't wear a helmet or face protection for that very reason. As I already mentioned my character is specced for primarily crafting, which does little to improve my stats overall.

Again, no one would accept or defend this in a game like Skyrim for instance, if a magic user could just kill everything and the other classes couldn't.

The game should be balanced regardless of what way a player decide to spec, if they have made it possible to do so.
It's perfectly fine if some specs are better in certain situations or versus some enemies types, but being able to just instant kill some of the hardest enemies in game (Given im level 33 and they are marked with a skull) and them unable to even defend themself is not a good system. Because at this point, enemy level doesn't matter anymore, whether they are level 38 or level 3 is all the same to me, because they just die when I cast it.
And keep in mind that in the video it cost me 18 RAM to cast it, but that is without breaching them first. And my RAM regenerate very fast especially outside combat, which I never triggered in the first place so I don't have to worry about anything really.

 

[malikhis]

I have not quite understood if you agreed or disagreed on my point. You are also broadening the argument also, nobody talked of making a based of players skills, or Dark Souls game, etc, actually on the contrary I want this game to stay rpg-esque as much as possible with possibilities to create OP builds if one choose so. I only supported the idea that certain skill in the netrunning play style need to be rebalanced a bit in order to not make that playstyle too trivial as it seems to be now (I have not played it yet). Also another example, doesn't make any sense to reach 100% critical chance on weapons which is possible right now without any drawbacks (I dunno limit critical damage cap in that case). I also understand that chasing the perfect balance is pointless in a single rpg, no system is perfect and there is always a path to god status.

The whole point I was making was that it is your CHOICE to use "a certain skill" it is your CHOICE to cheese.... if someone wants that overpowered build all you're doing is demanding the game gimp that person because you cannot help yourself.

RPGs should give you the tools to play how you want to play... and the player should not complain that after they min-maxed to hell the game is too easy. Because in the end that only results in dark-souls style gameplay where it's not the build that matters but player skills.

RPGs used to be this area where you could just play how you wanted and if your build sucked then it sucked... now people are demanding all builds work, no builds be overpowered and everything be equal which means the only "gameplay" is player twitch response.

 

[celeborn10]

Why are we looking to Dark Souls for difficulty in a First Person Shooter futuristic semi-RPG? Snowflakes ought to try Deus Ex 1 with the Hardcore DX mod for some real difficulty in an RPG-FPS.

Progression here in Cyberpunk is like a quadratic mage with all the multipliers/options. The AI needs to be more aggressive with justifiable concentrations of near-cyberpsycho freaks and some ability to resist quickhacks. Why not have everything the player gets, the AI can and should be able to use?

 

[ottffss1]

Why are we looking to Dark Souls for difficulty in a First Person Shooter futuristic semi-RPG? Snowflakes ought to try Deus Ex 1 with the Hardcore DX mod for some real difficulty in an RPG-FPS.

Progression here in Cyberpunk is like a quadratic mage with all the multipliers/options. The AI needs to be more aggressive with justifiable concentrations of near-cyberpsycho freaks and some ability to resist quickhacks. Why not have everything the player gets, the AI can and should be able to use?

Yeah waiting for a mod that gives all the enemies tech rifles. pewpew. enemies should not only be able to just spawn near you but shoot you from across the world map, and from space as well (since it's 2077)

at 5 star police they should realistically just send guided drone missiles at you.

 

[Aleksondos_]

Best combat I've ever experienced in game. It's a matter of taste and I love it.

 

[rapij42882]

if you play to maximize damage, why are you blaming the game when it shows you the result of maximum damage?

and is this not what you want? this is a world where a group of people can get their brains fried remotely at the touch of a button, why does it bother you that you can hack thugs and criminals and put them to sleep or melt their brains too?

this is in keeping with the lore of the game, no?

 

[Mobster100]

if you play to maximize damage, why are you blaming the game when it shows you the result of maximum damage?

and is this not what you want? this is a world where a group of people can get their brains fried remotely at the touch of a button, why does it bother you that you can hack thugs and criminals and put them to sleep or melt their brains too?

this is in keeping with the lore of the game, no?

My character is not one of maximizing damage, it focus on crafting. But even if it was aimed at this, it wouldn't make any difference. Obviously there are enemy levels in CP, so being able to kill those of low level with ease makes sense, but you can kill anyone like this, whether they are low level or they have skulls over their heads. The only ones where you can't is certain bosses, where your character mysteriously lose their abilities and get them replaced by something else. Makes you wonder why that is the case?

It's like playing Skyrim and having a spell that can instant kill whoever you look at, whether that is a huge dragon or a deer.

And I don't think it fits the lore. Yes you can manipulate people like this, but you would assume that if this is as normal as CP makes it seem, then people would also have defence mechanisms against them, because anyone in theory can buy these abilities from a shop, it's not something that is unique to V, the next door kid could do this and go around killing people if they felt like it. Besides that, policemen are also immune to this, so in that case this ought to break the lore as well.

But from a general point of view when you talk gameplay, I don't see why people would find it funny, just being able to completely ignore the environment and go around wallhacking and instant kill enemies through the walls, without them being able to defend themselves?

Even when it comes to story and immersion, where some NPCs will tell you to be extremely careful, because you are dealing with some very dangerous people, it just falls flat, because nothing is especially dangerous.

I have finally completed the game after 125 hours (level 33) and besides the terrible ending that I got, (Will not spoil it!!), but it made absolutely no sense whatsoever in regards to the story. This final missions were without a doubt the most boring one in the game, most gigs are more interesting and more difficult if you ask me. And it's not because I hate the game, because I really like it, but at this point there was nothing the enemies could do, the whole layout was terrible in my opinion. And the path I chose, they build up to this being something very big and in the start it works and you get excited for it and think this is going to be epic, but then when the mission itself starts it like getting a bucket of ice cold water thrown down your pants. Because it doesn't fit the whole setup that they have tried to make you buy into up until now. And when the mission is finally over, you are presented with an ending that simply doesn't make any sense in regards to what you chose.

A final mission should give you trouble, if this is considered one of the most dangerous things you can do in my opinion. As it's basically like playing Skyrim and just one shotting the final boss there, despite people saying that it's really dangerous and powerful.

 

[quxxo]

Yours is probably the 6th or 7th thread I've seen on this topic. While there is a fair bit of validity to the points you make (tiered weapons, attachments, cyber ware + stackable perks = OP character build); the fact remains we all pick and choose what we use, how we use it; so on and so forth. We can use as much as we want, or as little.

We're not rebalancing the game for the devs; we're rebalancing the game for us. Should anyone lack the self discipline to NOT use available kit, perks and such------that's not a developer problem.

It's devs job to balance the game and make it fun through balance between unfairness and being too easy, not mine. Since this game has a difficulty system, you'll always be welcome to play on easy if you dislike balance and challenge, but don't force me to "balance" the game by myself when I expect a challenge on very hard.

Post automatically merged: Dec 27, 2020

if you play to maximize damage, why are you blaming the game when it shows you the result of maximum damage?

and is this not what you want? this is a world where a group of people can get their brains fried remotely at the touch of a button, why does it bother you that you can hack thugs and criminals and put them to sleep or melt their brains too?

this is in keeping with the lore of the game, no?

If you want to go that route, then according to lore if you have powerful hacks at your disposal you should be wanted by netwatch. There's nothing like this in the game though, you are welcome to kill everyone in night city with one button press.

 

[Kaspar.Hauser]

Well that is what I intend to do.

I do however not agree that it should be up to the players having to balance the mechanics in a game, and I doubt that the developers intention is that either. Because if you should follow that logic, they ought to not care about people cheating or exploiting things like copying items or what some people do. The same excuse could be used here, just telling people to not do it.

That is not to allow freedom or enhancing the game, that is to simply not care.

I can't agree more.

I had this discussion earlier, and the guy said that exploitive buildings was my fault, because I always had the option not to use it.

So, what's the point of having such a flawed upgrade system that the player is forced to don't upgrade, or forced to change his play style, instead of making something that is very fundamental to any game that uses RPG progression system, that is balancing the upgrades?

If you make a pistol/silencer build, you can headshot everyone, doing half million damage (easily), without drawing any attention.
If you make a meele/crafting build, you can instal armadillo mods to buff up your armor, them craft or take a police stick and go ahead trampling enemies.
There was another guy that played as a sniper, and the gun he had allowed him to shoot through walls and see enemies behind it, and the damage was so high that enemies were killed without even reacting.

It's not like these builds (I used the first two) used any kind of cheat or gaming exploit, but they really plays like it was due to some gaming exploit because the upgrade system is flawed.

AI doesn't help much either. Enemies never surprises you, always hide, never use fire supression on V, never flanks, and the list goes on.

For my second playthrough, I decided to use a full body character, expecting that in meele department it would be better, but ended up using pistols and assault rifles because it takes more than 2 hits to kill the enemies (I have 3 reflexes and no investment in skills).

And those "it's your choice to use it or not, you lack discipline" are just sad excuses to justify a lazy balancing. The main point is providing choices that are actually usable for the player without breaking the game.

In Witcher 3 you could have aerondight + magic that made your attacks reach longer distances, but it was near the end of the game, but if you do a regular upgrade on the build you wish to use on cyberpunk 2077, you'll end up trampling on enemies since the beggining, killing the challenge sensation and making the upgrade system useless.

 

[DeathsDesign17]

Hand/knife combat needs a lot of work in my opinion.

 

[censorpunk]

This is a video showing what I think is a huge problem with the CP combat and some of the tools you are given, and which pretty much makes enemies defenceless.

Im playing on Very hard difficulty and im currently level 33.

The Cyberware im using is one I have had for a very long time at this point, as it seems to be very good. Now what really makes it shine is that it allows "Ultimate quick hacks to spread once" and it reduces the cost by 3.

The quick hack I use is called system reset, as far as I can see there is nothing the enemies can do about it. Remember I can do this through cameras as well.

As it can be seen in the video these guys are some high level ones with the skulls on their head and I go down very fast when they shoot me (have around 1000 armor), yet they are just "instantly" killed, even the guards outside doesn't react to it. Which means I could do the exact same to them.

That to me is a huge problem, because I can do this from such a distance that even if Im spotted I can just run away or hide behind something, do it through the camera system and they are completely screwed. Only certain enemies like bosses etc are immune as far as I can see, the rest are toast to be honest. And as mentioned this is not something I just got, I think I have had it at least since level 18-20 or something. And could probably have gotten it before had I specced for intelligence earlier.

Even if I headshotted that guy with a sniper rifle, he probably wouldn't die and they could fight back, but in this case, its just game over for them. This really need to be balanced somehow. The same goes with some of the other weapons.

Compare it to when I shoot him with my assault rifle it hardly damage him. I don't really know how they are aiming to fix it, but something needs to be done at some point, if you ask me.

In my next playthrough I will definitely go with a full out shoot build with no smart or tech weapons, as I think that would make for a lot better experience.

What are your thoughts on how you have build your characters, since I really haven't gone deep in any damage things, Im almost full crafting and intelligence, so don't know how it works if you are full melee or guns?

I really like the combat in this game. Lots of options, something for everyone. I think that richness in variety made it hard to balance. I don't see this as a major issue because it is a single player game but yeah now that I know I can clear whole missions using 2 quickhacks without even entering the area, anything else I try in combat feels inefficient...

 

[strangerism]

if they only made these powerful quick hacks more deep

for instance system reset

one-shot kill but with little chance to spike out of the network and cause aoe damage and few seconds fizziness to nearby enemies and you

negative results:

- out of combat: if am unfortunate I will alert the enemies of my presence (mitigate with quickhacks perks the chance to spike)

- in combat: alertness of enemies is irrelevant but there is still aoe spike damage and fizziness for few seconds (like a blurred vision) which can in turn force you to retreat for few seconds

 

[Mobster100]

I really like the combat in this game. Lots of options, something for everyone. I think that richness in variety made it hard to balance. I don't see this as a major issue because it is a single player game but yeah now that I know I can clear whole missions using 2 quickhacks without even entering the area, anything else I try in combat feels inefficient...

I enjoy the combat as well, but same as you, to a certain point only and then it just collapses because it simply offers no challenge. And it's not unique for quick hacks only, when looking at how other people spec, they can do exactly the same, just in other ways. If you go full Tech weapons you have perks that allow you to completely ignore armor etc. I haven't tried that myself, but seeing how people not even specced for it now can easily shoot people through walls, it doesn't require a lot of testing to figure out that it would only make it even more crazy were you to spec like this.

The idea of what you can do is cool, but as a combat mechanic it simply doesn't work in its current state, because its not exciting.