Why couldn't mages just teleport out of Novigrad?

[Maerd]

Seriously are you this biased or just looking for an argument? Nobody said Magic or SOrcerors suck. WTF?
But yes both Geralt and a mage can be killed by a moment of distraction. It's as simple as that.
IT IS YOU who are pretending mages are nearly invincible! WTF?
It is you and the others who are making this a power level argument.

I see, you already forgot what's your argument is about. Well, let me make a summary for you:
1. You and Willowhugger initially suggested that the game doesn't have major plot hole where the mages cannot even teleport out of town to Kovir because
a. Either mages are weak and cannot neither teleport nor fight with the witch hunters (particularly Triss cannot teleport anyone out because she sucks at magic: cannot even cast a missile shield without fainting)
b. Or, may be, Novigrad is full of dimeritium that prevents casting magic from far away referring to a quest in Kaer Morhen, and that dimeritium pieces of armor makes witch hunters immune to spells.
2. You also suggested that Sile and Margarita arrest/capture also logical and nice plot because all mages need really long time to cast spells and will be easily overwhelmed by hunters.That Sile's torture is totally logical because it was prophesized by famous oracle Letho of Gulet, who knows the future and never lies, I guess.
3. Willowhugger suggested that since the Lodge was involved in geopolitical meddling, they are all evil and they all, especially Sile, deserve to die in TW3... except for Triss, Yennefer, and, may be, Keira if she behaves... I guess, because you can fuck them, so, their membership in the Lodge doesn't count.

Here's a summary of counterarguments:
1.a. There are sorcerers of various degree of strength but if we believe books then their simple spells are are more powerful than anything a witcher can produce. A good and well-educated sorcerer can kill anyone with a flip of a finger, especially a swordman like Geralt who cannot counter mighty spells. The presumption that in the biggest city in the world all sorcerers are weak except for Triss doesn't make sense.
Here Azar Javed kills Geralt with a flip of a finger when Geralt arrogantly attacks the prepared sorcerer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADG2XLqNObM Geralt cannot win this fight no matter what. Later in the game Triss puts a special spell on Geralt to make sure that this won't happen and Geralt will be able to confront Azar.
Triss' antiprojectile shield case is somewhat doesn't make sense and inconsistency by itself. After that she says: "Too much spells at once. You can die from it." And she casted only one. My theory is that initially scenario designers planned her to cast a spen to turn each individual arrow in a butterfly, that would be indeed too much spells at once. But then they decided that it's sort of strange and inefficient way for Triss to handle arrows and changed the spell to a globular shield but the speach lines remained. Triss' fainting was added either to show her allergy to magic (in the games she's clearly allerged to magic, which is different from books version) or to make a room for a "lovely butt" joke. Hey, REDs am I right?
In TW1 triss remotely teleported Geralt watching him through some kind of clairvoyance spell. If she can do that, then she can teleport everyone in Novigrad to Kovir right from her home. And also she can teleport all her enemies remotely to the middle of the ocean or 200m up in the air.

1.b. Dimeritium doesn't have those properties. Here's from the TW1 book about dimeritium: "Dimeritium is a rare and precious metal with an interesting feature — it represses the transfer of magical energy. A bluish alloy of iron and dimeritium is used to produce handcuffs and necklaces. Those who wear them cannot cast spells or use magic in any way. There are known cases, however, of extraordinarily powerful sorcerers managing to overcome the shield generated by dimeritium."
Jaques was casting powerful spells while wearing dimeritium necklace. So, it's not a kryptonite for mages, shackles are required to actually prevent them casting and even that might not help.

2. Teleport spell is one of the best weapons and it's an instant spell. Because mages won't have a problem to reproduce whatever Geralt can do they for sure can burn their opponents, stun them, throw them off their feet, mind control, and shield themself from physical attacks in an instant.
Letho was getting rid of a witness and he was very interested in Sile's death, so, he was eager to prophesize her doom. He also said that Geralt will surely die if he'll attack him...

3. He, apparently, doesn't mind romancing psychopaths, war criminals, mass murderers from the evil organization since I haven't seen him aguing against TW3 romances as amoral or unethical in principle, and agitating to add "four toungued viper" insult options to Yen's and Triss' dialogues with consequent decapitations for all those suffering orphans they caused.

I'm just saying nobody be it mage or witcher or whoever can just go and kill hundreds of people with the certainty of prevailing.

Where did I argued that mages will be killing hundreds of people in a single combat? I said a sorceress would just teleport away if the odds are not in her favour. In certain favorable circumstances she can eliminate hundreds of people in short period of time like in the Sabrina's incident (if you are willing to take this event as true and not as a plot hole). Invincible doesn't mean immortal or that she cannot be harmed. It means that the sorceress will pick the battle, which she will win with high probability, otherwise she'd retreat to come another time or defeat her enemies by other means. What's so hard about this to understand?

Sure they could. My Geralt once defeated a Dragon and killed anyone in TW2 using only igni sign and didn't use swords even once whole game (cursed battle doesn't count, you don't have a choice there). I'm sure a novice mage can cast igni on a Geralt's level and defeating a dragon is not even required.

I can't believe you're still peddling this rubbish.
Do you not understand that not everything you can do in the games can be used as proof especially in a complex context such as analogy amidst all these assumptions?
Geralt could defeat Bosses using his bare fists. He can carry around 4 tons of equipments. Those are game mechanics and/or exploits. Not lore. This argument is flat out nonsensical. Sorry.

You cannot even get when you're being mocked and continue to use the game inconsistencies as proofs for your points instead of critically assessing and pointing out those inconsistencies.

I'm not going to answer to the rest of your post, it's just getting tiresome and boring. If people read it they, hopefully, already got the reasoning many times over.

---------- Updated at 12:45 PM ----------

She could be. If the Witch Hunters were competent enough to have a spy close to her and betray her all of the sudden, shackling her instantonously.
But no. She just got cought cause she was stupid and willingly got herself arrested because reasons.

Infiltrating a traitor near Sile would be quite a story and a lot of effort because this should have happened in Kovir where no witch hunters present, plus Sile can peak into people's thoughts, so she would be able to recognize a traitor if she checks what her close friends think regularly.

 

[Innamoramento]

Dear Gerald01, I see that you have only two opinions - your and wrong. And you wait for everyone to accept it. That's not how it works IRL. I have my opinion and I have expressed it. No need to ask a hundred questions I and others already answered. Read one more time throught everyone answers carefully. I do not see a piont to continue arguing with someone who ignores almost everything he read.

 

[Gerald01]

Dear Gerald01, I see that you have only two opinions - your and wrong. And you wait for everyone to accept it. That's not how it works IRL. I have my opinion and I have expressed it. No need to ask a hundred questions I and others already answered. Read one more time throught everyone answers carefully. I do not see a piont to continue arguing with someone who ignores almost everything he read.

That's not how it works. I ignore baseless nonsensical non sequiturs, partial informations, logically problematic stuff only. 90% of what's been said in this thread is just that.

I have yet to see a coherent argument, or a in depth one dealing with either:
a) Mages going on a killing spree in Novigrad and its objectives and consequences
b) the "mages" shown during the quest being Sorcerors
c) A single mage having anything past a very slim chance of facing dozens of opponents

Which are what has been claimed.

Everyone can have their opinion, no matter how flawed. I could start arguing (for the sake of it) about all sorts of stuff, without presenting any valuable evidence, that don't mean my opinion has merit in itself or is uncriticisable.

This ain't a democracy either, where the most shared position is the relatively more correct one.



Ps: I already conceded most of the stuff you guys presented as true. I'm just arguing a few possible alternatives and/or likeliest options.
Only one of the two parties has rock-solid unshakeable positions and is not prone to any fair analysis of facts.

The two modi operandi are very different. One deals with evidence, possibilities and then follows to a conclusion.
The other starts with a dogma, in light of which revisits everything else.

 

[Arch-Master]

hy is it that you people can't be honest? Not worthy of a comment. You know you can argue using reason, logic, empirical evidence without such cheap tricks.

How is it a trick? They were cought by surprise. The whole point of Thanedd Coup was about that. Scoia'Tael used stealth to kill those mages (not defeat them) as it is part of their tactics. Elves are not stupid and would not challenge a mage for an open duel.

Yes. So? The point is mages don't have lighting speed reflexes.

That was your point in a discussion with somebody else. I just brought some backup information for your argument by mentioning an in-game dialoge. Nothing against you man, calm down.

And I have never argued that mages have lightning speed reflexes (I even confirmed they don't).

Hence why one mage being this unstoppable force able to wipe out whole cities is nonsense.
"but Sabrina did wipe out two armiez bleh blehshh" No, she was safe behind Kwaedenian lines. From a distance summoned a spell. She wasn't part of the fighting, nobody was attacking her.

I fail to understand why are you arguing against me. I just gave you an explanation. I too doubt she would have been able to destroy those armies if she had been in the middle of the fight. That's what we agree on.
You're looking for enemies around you, I do not say she is a super powerful unstoppable force of destruction (as some people claim), I have just explained why she was so easy to arrest. Unless you want to argue she was not exhausted after her spell?

---------- Updated at 01:38 PM ----------

Mages going on a killing spree in Novigrad and its objectives and consequences

I believe they could do it (and would have a moderate chance of success) but it would bring a lot of civilian casualities as well as some of their own would be killed. There is no doubt in that. Also they would lose all the remaining reputation they had. But probably the biggest problem for them would be to organise themselves. Few people (especially proud, educated ones like the mages) would be willing to throw themselves into such a dangerous fight having (even relatively small) chance of them being killed. So in my opinion if the devs decided to go this way it would be quite a plothole in itself.

the "mages" shown during the quest being Sorcerors

I believe that most of the "mages" shown in the quest were not actually proper mages. Most of them were normal people without any magical gift (herbalists, alchemists, scientists) and some of them were students who haven't even completed their training. That's what was shown in game at least, so it's reasonable to conclude that all of the "proper" mages had already left the city as soon as the lynching started.

A single mage having anything past a very slim chance of facing dozens of opponents

Depends on the kind of opponents. If we are talking about proffessional fighters then they wouldn't stand a chance against a bigger group.

---------- Updated at 01:46 PM ----------

Infiltrating a traitor near Sile would be quite a story and a lot of effort because this should have happened in Kovir where no witch hunters present, plus Sile can peak into people's thoughts, so she would be able to recognize a traitor if she checks what her close friends think regularly.

Honestly? It would be damn hard to write anything about Sile getting captured as most of scenarios (that I at least) come up with are very unplusable and have a slim chance of happening. Having a spy betray her is the least bad scenario I could thing of.

 

[Gerald01]

I'm only gonna address the points relevant to my side of things, for the most part.

I see, you already forgot what's your argument is about. Well, let me make a summary for you:

I did forget lots of stuff, since this conversation has gone on for days without rhyme or reason.
But "mages suck" was never a point made by anyone, including me.

1. You and Willowhugger initially suggested that the game doesn't have major plot hole where the mages cannot even teleport out of town to Kovir because

I never said such thing. I did say it was problematic and merely interjected possible reasons why they could not maybe teleport out.
Which was never my argument. I don't really know if they could. Do you?

a. Either mages are weak and cannot neither teleport nor fight with the witch hunters (particularly Triss cannot teleport anyone out because she sucks at magic: cannot even cast a missile shield without fainting)

Here again misrepresentation or outright lies on your part. Nobody said she "sucked at magic". What was argued is various technicalities, including mages not having infinite "mana" and spells taking a varying degree of time to be casted.

b. Or, may be, Novigrad is full of dimeritium that prevents casting magic from far away referring to a quest in Kaer Morhen, and that dimeritium pieces of armor makes witch hunters immune to spells.

Uh, no. It was suggested as either: a possible explanation in the case we assume there was hypothetically no problem
or a way to have improved the writing

There's a different between speculation and belief. If I say "maybe Gerald could be bisexual" as an explanation for a line of dialogue, it doesn't mean I believe it is so.
Just a possible proposed explanation, the merits of which are not immediately discussed.

1.a. There are sorcerers of various degree of strength but if we believe books then their simple spells are are more powerful than anything a witcher can produce. A good and well-educated sorcerer can kill anyone with a flip of a finger, especially a swordman like Geralt who cannot counter mighty spells. The presumption that in the biggest city in the world all sorcerers are weak except for Triss doesn't make sense.

Nobody said the contrary. In fact I talked at lenght about it.
Triss being the only one left in Novigrad is not certain, but seems to be the case.
Also a minor point, and part of a general discourse, as I explained that's not the issue.

Here Azar Javed kills Geralt with a flip of a finger when Geralt arrogantly attacks the prepared sorcerer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADG2XLqNObM Geralt cannot win this fight no matter what. Later in the game Triss puts a special spell on Geralt to make sure that this won't happen and Geralt will be able to confront Azar.

This is better than your other game-mechanic examples, as it seems to be somewhat more grounded in the story.
However there is no reason past purely game mechanics as to why he wouldn't die. Unless you're saying that's proof a mage could be completely immune to a sword impaling him through his chest or somesuch? With a protective spell, sure.
I always contemplated that. The issue is if you can keep it on all the time, or at least for several minutes with 100% immunity to DMG (in game terms) while casting others and doing all sorts of other stuff. I believe I've now said this 5 times at least.

Triss' antiprojectile shield case is somewhat doesn't make sense and inconsistency by itself. After that she says: "Too much spells at once. You can die from it." And she casted only one. My theory is that initially scenario designers planned her to cast a spen to turn each individual arrow in a butterfly, that would be indeed too much spells at once. But then they decided that it's sort of strange and inefficient way for Triss to handle arrows and changed the spell to a globular shield but the speach lines remained.

Whatever the case, it's not the only example from the games. You also got Keira experiencing "mana-depletion" during the elven ruins quest and Yen at KM, as I said from the start. Now unless you're saying all are inconsisnt and a mage could very well keep a 100% dmg reflecting spell on all the time or for a good lenght of time, the discussion is moot.

n TW1 triss remotely teleported Geralt watching him through some kind of clairvoyance spell. If she can do that, then she can teleport everyone in Novigrad to Kovir right from her home. And also she can teleport all her enemies remotely to the middle of the ocean or 200m up in the air.

Seriously, how do you even get from 1 to 2? Teleporting a single person + another spell = teleport everyone in Novigrad to Kovir right from her home. And also she can teleport all her enemies remotely to the middle of the ocean or 200m up in the air.
Plus about Kovir, she'd need a rough idea about a somewhat precise location, at the very least if she wasn't going with them every trip.

Jaques was casting powerful spells while wearing dimeritium necklace. So, it's not a kryptonite for mages, shackles are required to actually prevent them casting and even that might not help.

Well it does seem the case for every single example in the games except this Jaques. So I don't see a point. Are you arguing Sila, Sabrina, Triss, Yen, would not be affected by dimeritium and the whole portrayal int he games is wrong?

riss' fainting was added either to show her allergy to magic (in the games she's clearly allerged to magic

I'm curious, are you basing this on only the Flotsam scene? Or there are others? If 1 it'd be circular reasoning.

2. Teleport spell is one of the best weapons and it's an instant spell. Because mages won't have a problem to reproduce whatever Geralt can do they for sure can burn their opponents, stun them, throw them off their feet, mind control, and shield themself from physical attacks in an instant.

1) Yes. So? Let's say you're right about teleportation of a single individual and accept as proof the scene in KM with Yen and the lake.
2)I feel this is poor reasoning. Why not base your examples on the lore itself, instead of using Gerald as a proxy, introducing an assumption which may or may not be true?

3. He, apparently, doesn't mind romancing psychopaths, war criminals, mass murderers from the evil organization since I haven't seen him aguing against TW3 romances as amoral or unethical in principle, and agitating to add "four toungued viper" insult options to Yen's and Triss' dialogues with consequent decapitations for all those suffering orphans they caused.

Yes. And that'd only denote Gerald being inconsistent or having a different morality than ours. Does it mean the player, even if you were able to outline the details of G's thinking, should share it wholesale? Or, make a extra-universe judgement ont he characters? Does it also mean that some stuff being accepted negates the negativity of similar others? No, hypocrisy is not a perequative supreme force both in RL and the Witcher universe.

Where did I argued that mages will be killing hundreds of people in a single combat?

Did you not say Triss on her own would be able to kill all witchhunters and raze the city of Novigrad to the ground if she wanted to?

I said a sorceress would just teleport away if the odds are not in her favour. In certain favorable circumstances she can eliminate hundreds of people in short period of time like in the Sabrina's incident (if you are willing to take this event as true and not as a plot hole). Invincible doesn't mean immortal or that she cannot be harmed. It means that the sorceress will pick the battle, which she will win with high probability, otherwise she'd retreat to come another time or defeat her enemies by other means. What's so hard about this to understand?

The point is you cannot apply this case in Novigrad except for a subset of highly improbable chain of events where Triss (or whoever) meticolously plans all her fights and is so lucky as to time perfectly every spell casted.

Nobody ever said a mage could not (with some effort) teleport in front of a platoon, quickly launch a fireball then get out relatively safely.
A prolongued engagement versus enemies with the pressing advantage on numbers, direction and terrain is completely different.
As far as Sabrina, for the maybe 6th time, nobody ever said Mages do not have great offensive capability.

But I know what you are thinking about. Mages in Witcher are not Goku. You really need to drop the anime. Anime rots your brain.
They do not instantly teleport then cast a spell then disappear just to reappear 50 yards away with superhuman reflexes and cast another spell ad nauseam zip zap zip zap.
Not a korean movie either.
Witcher universe is grounded in realism.

You cannot even get when you're being mocked and continue to use the game inconsistencies as proofs for your points instead of critically assessing and pointing out those inconsistencies.

I'm not going to answer to the rest of your post, it's just getting tiresome and boring. If people read it they, hopefully, already got the reasoning many times over.

Yes, very nice. I guess fool on me for bothering addressing poor thought out nonsense from someone failing to distinguish between game mechanics and story-driven events in game. One who arbitrarily chooses some things as valid while disregarding others for convenience.

---------- Updated at 02:08 PM ----------

@Arch-Master
1)the way you presented the events was biased and almost unrecognisable from the very text Willow had just posted.
The way you put it now, is better.
Still the text refers to them not being able to "build a shield" in time, ergo implying it takes time, which was the main point he was trying to make I believe, which you glossed over and boiled down to "stealth". A duel? Not the sensible alternative.

2) I replied to you in the context of the larger discussion going on with other users, I got you did not share their exact position. Sorry.

 

[Innamoramento]

Gerald01, did you read the books?

 

[Willowhugger]

@Maerd

1.a. There are sorcerers of various degree of strength but if we believe books then their simple spells are are more powerful than anything a witcher can produce. A good and well-educated sorcerer can kill anyone with a flip of a finger, especially a swordman like Geralt who cannot counter mighty spells. The presumption that in the biggest city in the world all sorcerers are weak except for Triss doesn't make sense.

I believe a Witcher's Signs are far far weaker than any mages and I believe a Witcher's signs are far-far better than any mages' in combat but a handful of them. Mages do not know how to fight for the most part. We see this repeatedly in the game. They are people who read CHEESES and read DREAMS. The majority of mages who could fight died at Thanedd or joined Nilfgaard or become the Lodge.

Also, your assertion they can kill people with a flick of their finger is STUPID. Vilgefortz is the most powerful wizard in the world in the books and HE takes the time to learn combat skills rather than just using magic. I can point to MORE references from Time of Contempt where unsurprised wizards were killed by Scoa'tael.
The whole, "flick of a finger" bit from the Witcher 1 is stupid and even then, that just means Javed is powerful, not anyone else because Geralt can beat PHILIPPA in
The Witcher 3.

3. Willowhugger suggested that since the Lodge was involved in geopolitical meddling, they are all evil and they all, especially Sile, deserve to die in TW3... except for Triss, Yennefer, and, may be, Keira if she behaves... I guess, because you can fuck them, so, their membership in the Lodge doesn't count.

Because the Lodge members present at Sabrina's decision are guilty of murdering thousands of innocent people. I'm not even blaming the entire Lodge but every single one of the ones who approved Sabrina's WMD is a terrorist. Funny, how I don't think I even mentioned the Death of Aedirn's king because who cares?

I was hoping we were having an actual discussion but the strawmanning here is terrible and I'm not sure it's worth my time to continue debating.

Have fun with your invincible mage nonsense. I guess we don't need Witchers because any mage can fix the world's problems themselves.

 

[Innamoramento]

I'm not even blaming the entire Lodge but every single one of them is a terrorist.

As almost everyone in the witcher universe. Is Foltest good, when he started a war, because he was having an argument with his lover? Is Emhyr good when he starts to wipe out the North because he wants to bring Ciri back, to make an incest babies with her? Even an actions of our precious angel of just - Geralt leads to the death of a thousands people. Do I see The Lodge worst or more guilty than these folks? No, I do not. Why they The Lodge are evil, and others not so, and they have like 1005000 excuses? Because of gender? The lodge consists of the ladies who is easy to hate, as once Sile said "Because everyone once was fooled and betrayed by one?" (well, she spoke of the man, but we can imagine otherwise). Every man has a lot of excuses, but ladies never have a chance.

 

[Willowhugger]

As almost everyone in the witcher universe. Is Foltest good, when he started a war, because he was having an argument with his lover?

Foltest tried to kill Ciri, betrayed Aedirn to Nilfgaard, and planned to have his long-term girlfriend tortured after kidnapping her kids as well as potentially killing her son.

Foltest was a complicated, funny, awesome guy I'd love to have a drink with.

But yeah, can't really say Letho was a bad person for killing him.

Is Emhyr good when he starts to wipe out the North because he wants to bring Ciri back, to make an incest babies with her?

I sided with Dijkstra so, hopefully, he could weaken Nilfgaard enough that Emhyr would be unable to threaten Ciri or maybe even get him assassinated.

Emhyr isn't Hitler.

Emhyr knows how to fight a war in Winter.

Even an actions of our precious angel of just - Geralt leads to the death of a thousands people.

Geralt doesn't kill people.

He kills monsters.

Do I see The Lodge worst or more guilty than these folks? No, I do not.

Yeah, I agree. They're EXACTLY as guilty as these folks.

Quite a few of them are innocent, too, if not of the King of Aedirn's death then the Pontar Valley massacre.

Sile and Philippa are explictly guilty, though.

Why they The Lodge are evil, and others not so, and they have like 1005000 excuses?

Did you bother to check if I wasn't the guy who hated Emhyr most on these forums?

I'm the guy who maintains consistently he's the biggest villain of the franchise and the most "love to hate one"

Learning he was assassinated in my ending was my happiest moment after Ciri reunificartion.

Because of gender? The lodge consists of the ladies who is easy to hate, as once Sile said "Because everyone once was fooled and betrayed by one?" (well, she spoke of the man, but we can imagine otherwise). Every man has a lot of excuses, but ladies never have a chance.

Ciri and Yennefer, FTW, because they told the Lodge GFO.

---------- Updated at 03:25 PM ----------

One of the big things I think a lot of people have on these forums is the perception of liking a character and being "on their side." Some of my favorite characters in the Witcher universe is the entire nation of Nilfgaard, Emhyr, Philippa, Vilgefortz, and a few others aside from the ones I genuinely am on the side of like Geralt, Yennefer, Triss, and Ciri. I love the former because they're awesome to watch in action and complicated three-dimensional characters.

Philippa Eilhart dreams of an egalitarian, non-human/human society living together, with which mages protect and shepard in Upper Aedirn. She's a woman who protected the North from Nilfgaard through tooth and claw and IF TISSAIA WASN'T A FUCKING MORON then she might have stopped the Thanedd Coup before it happened. I sympathize strongly with her decision to have Aedirn's king killed because he and the other Northern monarchs were complete wastes of space.
Foltest and Henselt were the best of them and they were both scumbags by any objective standard--it's just they actually bothered to do their DAMN JOB as Kings.

Philippa Eilhart is, IMHO, 1000% better a person than Emhyr and I would prefer her to him in a heartbeat. I also think she'd do a wonderful job as a monarch of a nation and I hope, somehow, she and Dijkstra get back together (socially if not romantically) to lead Redania into a bright new Golden Age in my ending.

But that doesn't mean she's not a mass-murderer. The events in the Pontar Valley were beautiful illustrated, shown, and handled for maximized effect that Philippa Eilhart, Sile, Sabrina, and the other couple of mages present chose to kill 3000 people with magical fire to weaken King Henselt's position. It was a monstrous and unforgivable act which is BEAUTIFUL IN-STORY because it's understandable and well-done and justified in her mind.

But Geralt speaks for those who have no voice.

He won't forgive or forget.

And that is GOOD STORYTELLING.

 

[Maerd]

Because the Lodge members present at Sabrina's decision are guilty of murdering thousands of innocent people. I'm not even blaming the entire Lodge but every single one of the ones who approved Sabrina's WMD is a terrorist.

a. You're using the word terrorist incorrectly. Terrorism is a particular military and paramilitary tactics designed to spread fear (terror) among the population, not just a flashy tag, which is assigned to anyone you dislike, like they do it on television in the modern world for propaganda reasons (and let's avoid going into that topic).
b. You forgot that those people who died were soldiers and not quite innocent. Many of them have been participating in raping and pillaging the countryside of their enemies, like in any war without exception.
c. The spell stopped the war, if Henselt had won, it's very likely more people would have suffered and died in the occupied lands than those casualties on the battlefield, and those people who would have died are peasants, children, traders and so on, not soldiers.
d. You desperately need to divide all characters in two bins: good and evil. When you are confronted with a mixture of traits you have a cognitive dissonance, because it doesn't fit your perception of the world where good people cannot do ugly things and bad people cannot do any good (this is a cliche that is enforced through the most fiction movies, books, news, etc.). It makes you to choose a bin for a character. After you chose the evil bin for a character you overblow negative features and demonize the character, if you chose the good bin you overblow positive traits and whitewash this character. I like the witcher lore a lot because it does exactly opposite: it shows people like they are with positive and negative traits without assigning tags on them, whitewashing or demonizing them. That makes characters believable.

I was hoping we were having an actual discussion but the strawmanning here is terrible

Strawmanning? That was just a sarcastic comment intended to show you the flaw in your logic about the "evil" Lodge and making a binary division of characters on good and evil. CDPR totally should have included Triss in the scene where sorceresses decide to meteor shower the battlefield because she wouldn't have been against it too, she's one of the founding members of the Lodge, after all.

Then you wrote:

Geralt doesn't kill people.
He kills monsters.

preceded by:

I sided with Dijkstra so, hopefully, he could weaken Nilfgaard enough that Emhyr would be unable to threaten Ciri or maybe even get him assassinated.

How does that work? To side with Dijkstra you have to essentially kill Roche and Ves. So, you decided to kill your friends who helped you in the past out of political necessity... speaking of evil... And you just blamed the Lodge and branded it evil for killing people out of political necessity.

 

[Willowhugger]

How does that work? To side with Dijkstra you have to essentially kill Roche and Ves. So, you decided to kill your friends who helped you in the past out of political necessity... speaking of evil... And you just blamed the Lodge and branded it evil for killing people out of political necessity.

Yeah, it's almost like the real world is a complex and fascinating place where we don't always get what we want. But yes, it amongst the issue of destroying the Tree are two of the decisions which will haunt Geralt.

And I didn't say the Lodge didn't have REASONS for doing what they said.

Quite the opposite.

I'm pleased AOK is well-written enough that them doing such a terrible thing is something you understood the rationale behind even if I don't think my Geralt would accept it.

 

[Maerd]

The whole, "flick of a finger" bit from the Witcher 1 is stupid and even then, that just means Javed is powerful, not anyone else because Geralt can beat PHILIPPA in The Witcher 3.

I would argue that TW1 is actually has better representation of mages than TW3. Philippa is considered the most powerful of the Lodge and Geralt beating Philippa who is in the process of defending herself is just another huge plot hole.

 

[Willowhugger]

I would argue that TW1 is actually has better representation of mages than TW3. Philippa is considered the most powerful of the Lodge and Geralt beating Philippa who is in the process of defending herself is just another huge plot hole.

Yeah, I just don't buy that. It, essentially, renders the role of Witchers pointless in the setting. If mages are so damned powerful, then they shouldn't be afraid of Emhyr or Kings or rulers but in charge themselves. They could also solve most of the world's myriad problems.

Instead, Emhyr rules over his mages absolutely without fear and the world is pretty crappy.

YMMV obviously.

 

[Maerd]

It, essentially, renders the role of Witchers pointless in the setting. ... (Mages) could also solve most of the world's myriad problems.

Why? Will sorcerers agree hunting griffins for 50 orens from villagers? No, the offer is not interesting enough, they have more important things to do. They will kill monsters if they bother them directly. Like you won't go cleaning a public toilets for minimal wage if you have other options in life, even though you can and will clean a toilet at home.

If mages are so damned powerful, then they shouldn't be afraid of Emhyr or Kings or rulers but in charge themselves.

It's a balance of power really. In Nilfgaard the sorcerers who can potentially threaten emperors are killed before they can become powerful enough to do it. The emperor is also protected by several loyal sorcerers, so if some other sorcerer would like to seize the power they have to deal with other sorcerers. In the North, at least in the books, there was an unofficial sorcerocracy.

Instead, Emhyr rules over his mages absolutely without fear and the world is pretty crappy.

Because there are several mages who compete against each other to get close to the power, any active move by one mage to gain control of Nilfgaard or to subjugate the emperor will meet the resistance of other mages, who wouldn't like that to happen. Divide and conquer strategy at its best.

 

[Willowhugger]

So magic trumps everything?

And the only reasons Kings are in power are because of other mages?

Okay, not much I can say to that.

Thank you for discussing the issue.

 

[Maerd]

So magic trumps everything?

In the witcher world, it trumps almost everything.

And the only reasons Kings are in power are because of other mages?

Yes, this is correct.

Here's what will likely happen when Radovid get rid of all mages in his court:
-------------------------------------------------------
Midnight. Cynthia and 2 other sorceresses enter the throne room of Vizima. Emperor Emhyr var Emreis sitting on the throne and watching them curtsy.

Cynthia: You summoned us, your majesty.
Emhyr: I've read your report... Radovid executed all his court sorcerers... not wise of him.
Cynthia: What will be your orders, your majesty?
Emhyr: My spies located the exact location of the Radovid's current headquarters... Bring him to me, alive.

Emhyr makes a short gesture to someone. Vattier de Rideaux comes forward and passes Cynthia a piece of parchment.

Vattier: This is a plan of the building, royal bedroom is marked with an X. Radovid should be asleep by now.
Cyntia: As you command, your majesty.

Sorceresses study the plan.
Sorceress 1: I will create a portal right into his bedroom and keep it until you finish, Cynthia.
Sorceress 2: I put a "mega-quen" spell on you in case something goes wrong.
Vattier: I can send few agents with you, Cynthia, to cover your retreat if the guards become alert.
Cynthia: There's no need for that, your grace, artificial transformation doesn't take long, I will return before the guards could suspect anything.

Portal opens, Cynthia steps in. After a couple of minutes she appears again with the Radovid's statuette, which has a puzzled facial expression. Cynthia hands the statuette to the emperor.

Cynthia: This statuette will look great on your nightstand, your majesty.
Emhyr: Excellent work. Your service to the empire will be properly rewarded.
------------------------------

Something like that.

 

[Ortwyn]

In the witcher world, it trumps almost everything.

What about Rivian pogrom? I will post few passages saying that magic trumps almost everything, but mage might not be able to use the full potential of his power.

Spoiler

The crowd keeping her away from her horse, retreated before the rays given off by the hands and eyes of the sorceress. Yennefer shook her head, ruffling her black curls. she seem to be fury incarnate, the avenging angel, with her flaming sword.
'Return home, scum!' she cried, leaping at the crowd with a fiery whip. 'Run! Otherwise catch fire like cattle!'
'It's just one witch, people!' A sonorous voice rang from the crowd. 'One cursed elf witch!'
'She's alone! The other has fled! Hey, bring us the stones!'
'Death to non-humans! Death to witches!'
'To the gallows with her!'
The first stone whizzed past her ear. The second hit her in the shoulder and rocked her back. The third struck her in the face. Pain exploded behind her eyes, then everything was wrapped in black velvet.

'They will kill us,' Yennefer spat blood.
'Help me, Yennefer, 'Triss stopped for a moment. 'help me. Let's cast Alzur's Thunder...'
That will kill five, thought Yennefer. Then the rest will tear us apart. But okay, Triss. I will not run away. You will not see me run.
She joined in the enchantment. And they shouted in duet.
The people stared at them blankly, staring, but quickly recovered. They again began throwing stones at the sorceresses. Triss felt one whizz pass her head, but did not flinch.
It won't work, thought Yennefer. The spell will not work. We cannot conjure up something as complicated as Alzur's Thunder. It was said that Alzur had a voice like a bell and superior diction. And we are babbling and crying the words and melody...

Maybe Yen should have casted a shield that would turn the stones into butterflies. See it? One of the most powerful sorceresses was defeated by commoners throwing stones.

Yen also says that it is quite difficult to cast spells when nervous or hurt. Alzur's Thunder was supposed to kill 5 commoners. It all ended with Merigold's Hailstorm, but that was an accident. It could have ended with some disaster resulting in the death of Triss and Yenn. Using magic does not imply 100% success, people make mistakes and mages make them too.

Now imagine witch hunters, trained fanatics armed with swords and crossbows, instead of commoners who only throw stones surprise-attacking some mage. Teleport seems to be the only possibility (but mage can still be hit by an arrow when casting teleportation spell). Mage can also overestimate his power and choose to fight..and die (what if this happened to Síle?).

Hypothesis 1: Mages are not infallible demi-gods, they are only human beings. Even though they are smarter and more-experienced than other people, they might overestimate their power, they might panic and fail at casting the spell, they might not be willing to just kill everyone who might pose danger to them.

There are many examples of magic in the books and in the games that prove that magic in the witcher setting is inconsistent (even if you take only books into consideration). One mage casts a powerful spell, then another mage fails to do something which should be quite simple and third mage cannot do something because there are some limitations. But people tend to remember only the powerful spells and they forget that sometimes there are limits and sometimes shit happens.

Hypothesis 2: Sapkowski's magic is inconsistent. Therefore it is not surprising that magic in TW games is also inconsistent. Sometimes it seems there are no limits, but there are counter-examples proving the opposite.

Why Triss does not teleport all the mages from Novigrad? I don't know, but it is the same reason why Yen cannot teleport Geralt+Uma+Roach to Kaer Morhen. Maybe it is something like the capacity of elevator - if it is exceeded, something might go wrong?

Why the mages from Novigrad hide and do not fight the witch hunters? Because most of them are alchemists/pellars/herbalists/weak mages. Triss is the only one who is truly powerful there. And again - see the passage from the books, even a powerful mage might have trouble fighting multiple ennemies.

---------- Updated at 01:26 AM ----------

It's a balance of power really. In Nilfgaard the sorcerers who can potentially threaten emperors are killed before they can become powerful enough to do it. The emperor is also protected by several loyal sorcerers, so if some other sorcerer would like to seize the power they have to deal with other sorcerers. In the North, at least in the books, there was an unofficial sorcerocracy.

Because there are several mages who compete against each other to get close to the power, any active move by one mage to gain control of Nilfgaard or to subjugate the emperor will meet the resistance of other mages, who wouldn't like that to happen. Divide and conquer strategy at its best.

Citations needed. Books rather imply that only mages who are not loyal and conspire are killed, not that it happens to anybody with enough power. In the North there is a balance of power between mages (royal advisors) and kings.

The second quote...no comment. Just your imagination. Nilfgaardian mages are affected by propaganda (Nilfgaard is better than North) and by the fact that they are considered to be normal citizens, not superior class (in the North: kings and mages, in Nilfgaard: only emperor and nobility) and are not expected to get involved in politics (if they do, emperor might kill them). That's why they are so loyal.

 

[dragonbird]

There seem to be a lot of ad hominem attacks going on in this thread right now. Get back to arguing the point, not the person, or more posts are going to start disappearing.

 

[TouPoutsou]

Magic IS inconsistent. It's stated that Mages cannot create the source. They need to DRAW from a source in order to cast magic, so their powers are by definition incosistent, and depending or the available source. In the 5 book saga(not the earlier books where Sakpowsky was still trying to figure out his lore), mages are not THAT powerfull. And teleportation is something that needs concentration and preperation to cast. Yennefer could not just teleport Herself and Geralt out of Vilgefortz's castle when Emhyr order their execution. It's 100% game's fault that teleportation is being used so easily and widely. Other miscelenious facts.
1) It's implied that Geralt have killed mages before and he is not afraid of them in the least. The first time he faced Vilgefortz was way too full of himself. He seemed pretty sure that he would defeat him(and he failed).
2) Phillipa, the most powerfull sorceress is afraid of Geralt. When Yennefer asked her to tell the Witcher the truth she refused because she did not want for Geralt to try and take revenge.
3) Geralt defeated the possibly most powerful mage of all time, Vilgefortz. And no, Vilgefortz was not fighting Geralt as a swordman, as he clearly states"not exactly a fair fight". Geralt is essentially fighting against a spell controlled by a mage who is not that a great fighter, that's why he fooled him with an stupid decoy and killed him. This fight actually reminded me when Drizzt do Urden was fighting Benrae weapon master, who used magical bracelets to enhance his speed, and he was even faster than Drizzt. However Drizzt figured out that he could not really control that speed, and defeated him in the end.
4) It took several mages and an army to defeat the Witchers of Kaer Morhen.
5) The Lodge is consisted by the absolute best and most able sorcerecess in the world, while there are propably hundreds of others who are not even remotely as powerfull. And even the powers of the Sorceress of the Lodge are not THAT impressive(in the saga, not the earlier books).
6) On Sodden Hill the sorceresses were very well prepared for battle, and most likely fighted from distance while they had the militia to protect them. Either way they died.

So yeah, an army of hundreds of well trained witch hunters would definetely butcher the unprepared, unorganised and scared mages of Novigrad. As for the teleportation, yeah Triss at least would be able to get away no problem. If in the game is implied that she could not, it's a serious plot hole. Again, the game does a bad job of depicting teleportation as an extremely easy thing to do.

 

[warbaby2]

Why are characters dying for good in fantasy settings where resurrection magic is a thing? Story and drama... also, as stated before, not all mages in the city are capable of teleportation. In fact, I guess the minority of them are... not to mention the alchemists, healers and other mystics, who aren't even proper mages.