Why couldn't mages just teleport out of Novigrad?

[Maerd]

What about Rivian pogrom? I will post few passages saying that magic trumps almost everything, but mage might not be able to use the full potential of his power.

Sorcerer against the mob was already covered few pages ago. In this situation the solution is to retreat similarly to a situation of a knight in full plate against the peasant mob.

Maybe Yen should have cast a shield that would turn the stones into butterflies. See it? One of the most powerful sorceresses was defeated by commoners throwing stones.

The books didn't know that spell And I didn't say the books were consistent, there were a lot of strange things. Yen should have started to turn the crowd into chickens like last time...

Yen also says that it is quite difficult to cast spells when nervous or hurt.

According to TW3 it's not true because Triss murdered all witch hunters in the room after being her fingernails pulled off... I would say that was quite stressful and injury inflicting situation. And that Darth Vader style grip on Menge... she should have tried that in the crowd, on their most loud leader. That should have impressed the rest quite a lot.

There are many examples of magic in the books and in the games that prove that magic in the witcher setting is inconsistent (even if you take only books into consideration).

Exactly this is the whole point. It is very inconsistent and creates a lot of plot holes both in the books and in the games. This is the thread about that.

Analyzing all spell uses that were described in the games and the books, it appears that given the most powerful spell uses were valid the sorceresses are close to be demi-gods by amount of their potential power. Therefore, any reader or player can ask questions when in a situation where a previously used spell would be useful the caster suddenly forgets the spell, which would have solved the problem.

You know, like if the movie shows that a hero can jump from building to building covering huge gaps, for example, several minutes later he comes across the small stream and cannot cross it because the current is too strong... you can ask the question, why swimming if he's previously jumped over way bigger gaps? Then, when discussing the lore of the movie, do we accept that jumping from building to building was BS, or his inability to jump over a small stream was a plot hole. In our discussion about mages I'm arguing that in such situation inability to jump over is a just a plot hole and inability to jump all of a sudden was bad writing, some other people invent strange explanations similar to "he couldn't jump over the stream because he needs to drink apple juice to be able to do that since before the action sequence with buildings the hero drank the juice" or "he actually cannot jump because the second sequence shows he cannot regardless of what is shown before".

---------- Updated at 02:53 AM ----------

not all mages in the city are capable of teleportation. In fact, I guess the minority of them are... not to mention the alchemists, healers and other mystics, who aren't even proper mages.

The issue was why Triss herself didn't teleport them even if they cannot themselves. She even had a megascope to create a semi-permanent portal.

 

[AnklaX]

Not all mages are equally skilled. Most mages we saw or read of are arch mistresses of magic. Your average mages can't do that. But even thier power have limits. Also, different mages specialize in different areas. Even Avalach, the elven sage needed help with something form Keira Metz. Even Philippa was tricked and bound with dimeritium. Triss was haning about in Novigrad only to help other mages flee. It's how the game delivers the story. It gives you bits of information throughout the game and when you think on it, things begin to make sense. I admit, they haven't got it absolutely spot on, but I'd say its good enough. Also, remember that Dijkstra said they're burning mages everywhere else. Nilfgard's reputation was even worse. So they had nowhere they could flee. Also, you can't teleport to a place you don't know. You need coordinates, as indicated by Philippa in witcher 2. This also differs form the kind of teleport Avalach can do, but he's even more powerful that the know sorcoresses. Mages live really long. Philippa is about 300 and Avalach even more.

 

[CTPhipps]

One thing which the games don't touch on but the books do is the fact Sorcerers don't have unlimited magical mojo. They draw from the elements around them.

A Witch can be All-Powerful in One PlaceTM and then weak as a kitten in another.

It's what destroys Ciri's ability to do magic so she doesn't have any sorceress powers anymore by the end of the Time of Contempt (save her Space/Time ones).

 

[Maerd]

One thing which the games don't touch on but the books do is the fact Sorcerers don't have unlimited magical mojo. They draw from the elements around them.

A Witch can be All-Powerful in One PlaceTM and then weak as a kitten in another.

This was actually covered in TW1 and happily forgotten in TW2 and TW3. In TW1, before getting protective spell from Triss, Geralt had to fight Azar Javed in the swamp to downgrade his fire magic and prevent being killed with a snap of a finger.

 

[CTPhipps]

This was actually covered in TW1 and happily forgotten in TW2 and TW3. In TW1, before getting protective spell from Triss, Geralt had to fight Azar Javed in the swamp to downgrade his fire magic and prevent being killed with a snap of a finger.

Fire magic is kind of an oddity game breaker anyway as any mage can use it to gain incredible power but the price is demons fry your brain and make you permanently a psychotic monster.

 

[Gerald01]

One thing which the games don't touch on but the books do is the fact Sorcerers don't have unlimited magical mojo. They draw from the elements around them.

A Witch can be All-Powerful in One PlaceTM and then weak as a kitten in another.

Well they do not address the issue in exactly those terms, but indirectly it's shown by having magic exhausted after major spells, here and there, like Triss, Yen, Keira.
And also in the Sacred Garden quest where Yen has to draw power from it in order to do necromancy (so much so she depletes it completely).

The location-based thing seems completely lost though. Games seem to assume a base and uniform magic capacity everywhere, bar disruptions/macguffins.

---------- Updated at 01:17 PM ----------

This was actually covered in TW1 and happily forgotten in TW2 and TW3. In TW1, before getting protective spell from Triss, Geralt had to fight Azar Javed in the swamp to downgrade his fire magic and prevent being killed with a snap of a finger.

Was that because the swamp had lock magicka potential draw, or because the place hampered his magical abilities?

 

[octavian123]

As the title says.

Did I miss an explanation somewhere?

Holy shit, how did I not think of something so obvious?!

 

[Frybread]

Well they do not address the issue in exactly those terms, but indirectly it's shown by having magic exhausted after major spells, here and there, like Triss, Yen, Keira.
And also in the Sacred Garden quest where Yen has to draw power from it in order to do necromancy (so much so she depletes it completely).

The location-based thing seems completely lost though. Games seem to assume a base and uniform magic capacity everywhere, bar disruptions/macguffins.

---------- Updated at 01:17 PM ----------


Was that because the swamp had lock magicka potential draw, or because the place hampered his magical abilities?

I haven't played TW1 in a long time, so bear with me. But I think a mage who focuses almost exclusively on fire as a power source, like Azar Javed, isn't as skilled drawing Power from water - an element in abundance in a swamp. Also, water isn't going to provide as much Power as an equal amount of fire, so Javed would be further weakened in a swamp environment. Then, I'm not sure about this, but maybe the water veins in that particular swamp didn't have much Power to begin with?

 

[Gerald01]

@Frybread
Oh I see.
But where does a fire mage usually draw his power from then? From what exactly? It's not like fire as a element is commonplace in other places much more so than a Swamp

 

[Frybread]

@Frybread
Oh I see.
But where does a fire mage usually draw his power from then? From what exactly? It's not like fire as a element is commonplace in other places much more so than a Swamp

It's hard to explain, IMO, because Sapkowski is inconsistent with magic in the books. In the Korath Desert in "Time of Contempt," Ciri first searches for water veins to fuel her magic. She's able to find water underneath the ground. Later, to gather enough Power to heal Little Horse (Ihuarraquax) and to call rain, she is forced to turn to fire because of its potence. So she gathers small twigs and sets them alight before she can draw on fire as a source of Power. Then, as she is drawing Power from the flames, the fire grows so big and hot as to start burning the rock next to her, allowing her to draw even more Power in a sort of feedback loop. But Ciri almost looses control of herself because she is euphoric from so much Power flowing through her from the blaze.

IMO, most of the mages we read about in the novels and see in the games do not use fire as a source of Power, because fire is dangerous and addictive and isn't as easy to find as water, air or earth. Triss uses fire in TW3, but I can't tell if she's drawing Power from another source and then conjuring fire or if she's conjuring fire then using that as a Power source. It's confusing. I'm not an expert on the books (I've only read them once) so I hope any of this makes sense.

 

[Maerd]

So she gathers small twigs and sets them alight before she can draw on fire as a source of Power. Then, as she is drawing Power from the flames, the fire grows so big and hot as to start burning the rock next to her, allowing her to draw even more Power in a sort of feedback loop.

Yeah, I had a problem with that part because it contradicts basic natural laws. If you have a source of energy and draw/use it, which means you spend it, then how the source of energy suppose to increase? It's like drinking water from the bottle increases amount of water in the bottle.

 

[Gerald01]

Yeah, I had a problem with that part because it contradicts basic natural laws. If you have a source of energy and draw/use it, which means you spend it, then how the source of energy suppose to increase? It's like drinking water from the bottle increases amount of water in the bottle.

Because magic users act also as amplifiers of the natural frequency of magickness flowing through matter.

 

[Ortwyn]

IMO, most of the mages we read about in the novels and see in the games do not use fire as a source of Power, because fire is dangerous and addictive and isn't as easy to find as water, air or earth. Triss uses fire in TW3, but I can't tell if she's drawing Power from another source and then conjuring fire or if she's conjuring fire then using that as a Power source. It's confusing. I'm not an expert on the books (I've only read them once) so I hope any of this makes sense.

Klara Larissa Winter, the founder of Aretuza, was skilled at drawing power from the fire.

Sorcerer against the mob was already covered few pages ago. In this situation the solution is to retreat similarly to a situation of a knight in full plate against the peasant mob.

It is the best solution, but what if mage decides to do something else? And if the mage is alone (no one protects him), he can get hit by crossbow bolt before teleportation.

The books didn't know that spell And I didn't say the books were consistent, there were a lot of strange things. Yen should have started to turn the crowd into chickens like last time...

Yen's turning people into chickens is a giant plot hole from the short stories. Sapkowski realized that his magic is too powerful and decided to tone it down in the saga. The more powerful magic is, the more the whole setting of the witcher becomes inconsistent.

According to TW3 it's not true because Triss murdered all witch hunters in the room after being her fingernails pulled off... I would say that was quite stressful and injury inflicting situation. And that Darth Vader style grip on Menge... she should have tried that in the crowd, on their most loud leader. That should have impressed the rest quite a lot.

Firstly Triss became more experienced over time. Secondly she faced few witch hunters who didn't expect she could use magic on them, she was the one with advantage of surprise.

Exactly this is the whole point. It is very inconsistent and creates a lot of plot holes both in the books and in the games. This is the thread about that.

Analyzing all spell uses that were described in the games and the books, it appears that given the most powerful spell uses were valid the sorceresses are close to be demi-gods by amount of their potential power. Therefore, any reader or player can ask questions when in a situation where a previously used spell would be useful the caster suddenly forgets the spell, which would have solved the problem.

You know, like if the movie shows that a hero can jump from building to building covering huge gaps, for example, several minutes later he comes across the small stream and cannot cross it because the current is too strong... you can ask the question, why swimming if he's previously jumped over way bigger gaps? Then, when discussing the lore of the movie, do we accept that jumping from building to building was BS, or his inability to jump over a small stream was a plot hole. In our discussion about mages I'm arguing that in such situation inability to jump over is a just a plot hole and inability to jump all of a sudden was bad writing, some other people invent strange explanations similar to "he couldn't jump over the stream because he needs to drink apple juice to be able to do that since before the action sequence with buildings the hero drank the juice" or "he actually cannot jump because the second sequence shows he cannot regardless of what is shown before".

The most powerful spells from the short stories and games are plot holes in my opinion. Powerful magic should have its limits (i.e. more time and concentration needed to cast spells). I agree that CD Projekt might have made some mistakes.

The issue was why Triss herself didn't teleport them even if they cannot themselves. She even had a megascope to create a semi-permanent portal.

Was there some semi-permanent portal in the books or games that would allow to teleport a large group of people?

 

[Maerd]

Was there some semi-permanent portal in the books or games that would allow to teleport a large group of people?

I don't remember if large number of people we teleported in the books but in the games in TW1 Triss teleported the whole army of elves or knights (depending on who you side with) into the Salamandra Base. In TW2, using Sile's megascope, Triss, Letho and Sile herself teleported from Floatsome to Vergen. From TW3 we know that a megascope doesn't require deep knowledge of magic or powerful magic to operate since even witchers, unskilled with it, can use it.

Yen's turning people into chickens is a giant plot hole from the short stories. Sapkowski realized that his magic is too powerful and decided to tone it down in the saga. The more powerful magic is, the more the whole setting of the witcher becomes inconsistent.

And that's a thing, you have to make some sort of conventions how your magic system work otherwise you'll make a lot of plot holes. A lot of authors do not put an effort into consistency, which degrades the quality of the plot. Teleportation is an extremely powerful tool and it breaks the narrative consistency very easily. CDPR did a lot of mistakes with magic. But I sort of disagree that powerful spells should be eliminated completely. Sapkowski's books are clear that sorceresses are so powerful due to powerful magical abilities, otherwise who'll make a former ugly hunchback, practically nobody, a king's adviser. Sorcerers earn their positions by serving very powerful weapons and tools. If you remove it from them then the setup becomes a plot hole: if they are not powerful and every idiot or 10 idiots in a group can defeat them then how did they end up where they are.

It is the best solution, but what if mage decides to do something else? And if the mage is alone (no one protects him), he can get hit by crossbow bolt before teleportation.

This was also covered in the previous discussion. If the sorceress is ready then at least she can cast something similar to quen or missile shield in advance. If she is ambushed and didn't see it coming then too bad, she's just a human after all. A sorceress needs to know her limitations when going against the crowd, and they are smart by definition. As I said it's like one heavy knight against the mob, should he intervene if the mob will clearly can surround and just stomp him.

---------- Updated at 11:09 PM ----------

Firstly Triss became more experienced over time. Secondly she faced few witch hunters who didn't expect she could use magic on them, she was the one with advantage of surprise.

I wouldn't call that "over time", the amount of time passed from the books is miniscule in comparison to Triss' age, it wouldn't be so drastic improvement considering she was already accomplished sorceress even in the times before the books' timeline.

 

[samcostello]

As the title says.

Did I miss an explanation somewhere?

Here's your answer.

Geralt: Hey Triss, why don't you and the mages just teleport out of here?
Triss: What do you mean?
Geralt: I mean instead of hiding in sewers, being hunted, and risking getting burnt alive, why the hell don't you guys just open few portals and save us all some serious trouble?
(Beat)
Triss: What? And ruin the plot?
Geralt: (sigh) I'll get my sword.
Triss: While you're at it, see if you can get a better understanding of dramatic story-structure. Honestly....

 

[Gerald01]

This was also covered in the previous discussion. If the sorceress is ready then at least she can cast something similar to quen or missile shield in advance. If she is ambushed and didn't see it coming then too bad, she's just a human after all. A sorceress needs to know her limitations when going against the crowd, and they are smart by definition. As I said it's like one heavy knight against the mob, should he intervene if the mob will clearly can surround and just stomp him.

No it was not. You were saying Triss could raze Novigrad by herself and could kill hundreds of people with almost no risks.
I was arguing the entire setup described above as would not work for the same reasons you are now espousing, among others.

: if they are not powerful and every idiot or 10 idiots in a group can defeat them then how did they end up where they are.

Because their usefulness is not directly linked to defeating random opponents in a fight maybe?
Even if mages were kept around solely for war, they still could be extremely effective long range /support units, while being also extremely vulnerable to melee or projectiles.
That's like saying why the heck do armies bother with catapults.

---------- Updated at 11:45 PM ----------

The issue was why Triss herself didn't teleport them even if they cannot themselves. She even had a megascope to create a semi-permanent portal.

The issue is badly posed.
If you manage to round them all up you could very well teleport them with some organisational difficulties.
But at the point both risk wise and plot wise, sailing by boat or by megascope (which would take time to let all of them through) is not that different.

The problem for Triss, as bad written as it was, was to contact, coordinate and organise an escape plan for all mages across Novigrad without authorities noticing in advance and quickly before WitchHunters got to them.

In fact, during her final mission, if you go save her 2 friends, WHs are already at the tavern and the innkeeper lies dead, alluding to the fact it's now or never or somesuch.

The journey between the tavern and the docks is actually not the most dangerous part of the plan.

Now, what could have worked, using teleportation, and a megascope is.. setting it up in the King of Beggars scummy enclave, and carefully having the mages slowly escape throught out several days/weeks, laying low.

 

[Frybread]

@Frybread
Oh I see.
But where does a fire mage usually draw his power from then? From what exactly? It's not like fire as a element is commonplace in other places much more so than a Swamp

Here are the scenes I was referring to.

Spoiler

“I can’t help you, Little Horse,” she said in a stifled voice. “I don’t have anything …”
Except magic. I’m an enchantress.
She stood up and held out a hand. Nothing happened. She needed a great deal of magical energy, but there wasn’t a trace of any here. She hadn’t expected that. It astonished her.
But wait! There are water veins everywhere!
She took a few paces, first in one direction then in the other.
Nothing.
“You damned desert!” she shouted, shaking her fists. “There’s nothing in you! No water and no magic! And magic was supposed to be everywhere! That was a lie too!”
The unicorn neighed.
Magic is everywhere. It’s in the water, in the earth, in the air …
And in fire.
It hadn’t occurred to her earlier perhaps, because, among the bare rocks, there hadn’t been anything to burn. But now she had a supply of dry thistles and stalks, and in order to create a tiny spark she ought only to need the tiny amount of energy she could still feel inside …
She gathered more sticks, arranged them in a heap and piled dry thistles around them. She cautiously put her hand in.
“Aenye!”
The pile of sticks glowed brightly, a flame flickered, then flared up, set the leaves on fire, consumed them and shot upwards. Ciri threw on more dry stalks.
What now? she thought. Now to gather the energy. But how? Yennefer has forbidden me from touching fire energy … But I don’t have a choice! Or any time! I have to act now; the sticks and leaves are burning fast … the fire will go out … Fire … how beautiful it is, how warm …
She didn’t know when or how it happened. As she stared at the flames, she suddenly felt a pounding in her temples. She clutched her breast, feeling as though her ribcage would burst. A pain throbbed in her belly, her crotch and her nipples, which instantly transformed into horrifying pleasure. She stood up. No, she didn’t stand up. She floated up.
The Power filled her like molten lead. The stars in the sky danced like stars reflected on the surface of a pond. The Eye, burning in the west, exploded with light. She took that light and with it the Force.
“Hael, Aenye!”
The unicorn neighed in a frenzy and tried to spring up. Ciri’s arm rose automatically, her hand formed a gesture involuntarily, and her mouth shouted out the spell of its own accord. Bright, undulating light streamed from her fingers. The fire roared with great flames.
The waves of light streaming from her hand touched the unicorn’s injured thigh, converging and penetrating.
“I wish you to be healed! That is my wish! Vess’hael, Aenye!”
The Power exploded inside her and she was filled with a wild euphoria. The fire shot upwards, and everything became bright around her…

She lifted both arms, screaming out spells and chanting invocations. She didn’t understand them, didn’t remember when she had learnt them – or if she had ever learnt them. That was unimportant. She felt power, felt strength, was burning with fire. She was the fire. She trembled with the power that had pervaded her.
The night sky was suddenly riven by a slash of lightning. A wind whipped up among the rocks and thistles. The unicorn gave a long neigh and reared up. The fire roared upwards, exploding. The sticks and stems had charred long before; now the rock itself was afire. But Ciri paid no attention to it. She felt power. She saw only the fire. She heard only the fire.

 

[Maerd]

You were saying Triss could raze Novigrad by herself and could kill hundreds of people with almost no risks.
I was arguing the entire setup described above as would not work for the same reasons you are now exposing.

This is seriously annoying. May be, try to use your brain a little bit more? Triss, of course, can raze Novigrad by herself if we are fine with the fact how she can cast a meteor shower in Kaer Morhen during the battle of Kaer Morhen. She doesn't need to face the crowd of whomever to do that. She can get on some roof at night or stay in the room of some building with a window open and rain fire on the witch hunters' headquarters. Nobody will see her doing it. If we believe she can do her Darth Vader style grip spell then she can take out lone walking witch hunters silently and without witnesses, teleporting bodies out of sight. She can even come to some witch hunters' personal homes directly then choke them and teleport their bodies to the forest for wolves to eat... or just choke them till they shit their pants and abandon witch hunting forever. She can also teleport lone walking witch hunters high into the air to somewhere outside of the city, so they fall and crush, if she can do the same tricks as Yen with Geralt. She can just ignite and burn witch hunters personal homes from afar when nobody's watching. In the medieval times there were no fire departments, if she wants she can ignite the whole city by well-placed fires (it's possible even without magic but with magic it's just easier to get away with it). Infinite possibilities.

This is why magic in the games and books is inconsistent and has many plot holes. But yeah, since you didn't understand it over the last 15 pages, I doubt you will be able to ever.

 

[Gerald01]

The definition of insanity. I keep asking similar questions expecting a different result.

I think after this:

n the medieval times there were no fire departments, if she wants she can ignite the whole city by well-placed fires (it's possible even without magic but with magic it's just easier to get away with it).

I may retire for good.

 

[Yeiiow]

I would have loved it if Geralt asked Triss the same question during The Great escape quest, just for consistency, it sounds like something he would have asked.

Then Triss could said something like: "Geralt, you should know that teleportation is a very advanced and power demanding skill, and there's just way too many mages in the city, most of them not powerful enough to pull it off and i don't want to leave anybody behind"

That small detail would have been great, even if not the strongest argument, it would at least make the story a lot more plausible.

The simplest way to deal with it is to explain in-game that there are magical blockades around Novigrad that prevent from teleporting outside of Novigrad area. They can use magic in the city (which may be tracked by witch-hunters as we now track active cell-phones), but no teleportation would be possible, even with a megascope. Radovid kept Novigrad a free city for a long time for all mages on the run to come there, and later shut the trap in order to mop up all survivors. He wouldn't leave any of them an easy way out. It would be quite in his character.

This would also work!