Why did you kill stealth netrunning?

[Crimsomrider]

Actually Netrunners did have to perform takedowns in the early levels of 1.6 because enemies had set levels back then and most Maelstromers in Watson were between 5-15, so were slightly above V's level until the player got to around level 10. Which is why threat indicators existed back then;

• Extreme Threat
• Medium Threat
• Normal Threat
• No Threat

Sonic Shock was not strong enough to one-shot anyone above Normal Threat until the player gained some levels and at least invested fully into quickhack damage perks, such as;

• Bloodware x3 - Quickhacks deal 10% / 20% / 30% more damage
• Subliminal Message x2 - Quickhacks deal 50% / 100% more damage to unaware targets ( God I miss this perk )

So instead of Distract + Takedown, in 1.6 it was just a simple Reboot Optics + Takedown combo to take down enemies silently until the player obtained Uncommon quickhacks by level 10-12, at which point pure Netrunning completely dominates the game because its perks and quickhacks become insanely overpowered, while levels no longer play a role.

Spoiler: Slightly off-topic

Also hopefully this ain't being taken as me trying to defend 2.0 Netrunning, I'm simply speaking in facts. I personally do not think for a moment that 2.0 Netrunning is the better Netrunning experience than 1.6.

I honestly hate most of the gimmicky crap that came with it and If I had to pick between 1.6 and 2.0 Netrunning for Phantom Liberty, I'd pick 1.6 in an instant without a trace of doubt.

But there's simply far too much misinformation floating around with 2.0 Netrunning which seems to be giving people the wrong idea that it sucks/is useless/is weak... to the point that people are saying "Netrunners now have to use weapons and whatnot", so am here to hopefully clear those out because even in 2.0 I still play as a completely pure stealth Netrunner from the very start and don't even carry a weapon on me.

 

[Guest 3847602]

Actually Netrunners did have to perform takedowns in the early levels of 1.6 because enemies had set levels back then and most Maelstromers in Watson were between 5-15, so were slightly above V's level until the player got to around level 10. Which is why threat indicators existed back then;

• Extreme Threat
• Medium Threat
• Normal Threat
• No Threat

Sonic Shock was not strong enough to one-shot anyone above Normal Threat until the player gained some levels and at least invested fully into quickhack damage perks, such as;

• Bloodware x3 - Quickhacks deal 10% / 20% / 30% more damage
• Subliminal Message x2 - Quickhacks deal 50% / 100% more damage to unaware targets ( God I miss this perk )

So instead of Distract + Takedown, in 1.6 it was just a simple Reboot Optics + Takedown combo to take down enemies silently until the player obtained Uncommon quickhacks by level 10-12, at which point pure Netrunning completely dominates the game because its perks and quickhacks become insanely overpowered, while levels no longer play a role.

Spoiler: Slightly off-topic

Also hopefully this ain't being taken as me trying to defend 2.0 Netrunning, I'm simply speaking in facts. I personally do not think for a moment that 2.0 Netrunning is the better Netrunning experience than 1.6.

I honestly hate most of the gimmicky crap that came with it and If I had to pick between 1.6 and 2.0 Netrunning for Phantom Liberty, I'd pick 1.6 in an instant without a trace of doubt.

But there's simply far too much misinformation floating around with 2.0 Netrunning which seems to be giving people the wrong idea that it sucks/is useless/is weak... to the point that people are saying "Netrunners now have to use weapons and whatnot", so am here to hopefully clear those out because even in 2.0 I still play as a completely pure stealth Netrunner from the very start and don't even carry a weapon on me.

I think that's partially true - yes, you cannnot one-shot every single enemy in Watson with SC (in 1.63), but the thing is - you don't have to do that in order to maintain stealth.
After being hit for the first time, enemies are entering "alerted mode" and start looking for you, not "combat mode" and start shooting at you (again, thanks to tracing mechanic being hackers-only exclusive). You have more than enough time to hit them 2nd or 3rd time provided you're standing far enough or are moving around...
Maybe we just have different definitions of stealth gameplay (mine does include alerting enemies as long as they don't reveal you, or you expose yourself).

 

[cammoking123]

Could you one-shot everything with with short circuit early game prior to 2.0? No. Nothing has changed. I'm just giving some suggestions to supplement your stealth early game. But if you want to play the game in the most tedious and slowest way possible then that's up to you.

 

[Soylencer]

Could you one-shot everything with with short circuit early game prior to 2.0? No. Nothing has changed. I'm just giving some suggestions to supplement your stealth early game. But if you want to play the game in the most tedious and slowest way possible then that's up to you.

More to the point, why do people think they should be able to guaranteed-one-shot ANYTHING by like level 8??

 

[rickboy333]

Lore wise I'd say tracing is an automatic system that engages if multiple users (read people) dissapears from the net. But NPC's won't react as long they don't know somethis is up.

But the whole "lore wise" argument is kinda bs anyway. The detection system on NPC's is also unrealistic. It is there for gameplay purposes.

 

[Kraxe13]

Lore wise I'd say tracing is an automatic system that engages if multiple users (read people) dissapears from the net. But NPC's won't react as long they don't know somethis is up.

But the whole "lore wise" argument is kinda bs anyway. The detection system on NPC's is also unrealistic. It is there for gameplay purposes.

And the “gameplay purposes” reasoning is terrible.
Anyone can be a stealthy sniper, or a stealthy pistol, those things don’t set of any alarms.

But a group of gang members shaking down some guy in a back alley apparently have a fancy hack detection system with them.
Yeah that’s some “lore” right there.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

But a group of gang members shaking down some guy in a back alley apparently have a fancy hack detection system with them.
Yeah that’s some “lore” right there.

Isn't V capable of detecting if a netrunner is hacking her (by default), and also knowing where the hack come from?
Just wonder... if V is able to, why enemies couldn't?

 

[Kraxe13]

Isn't V capable of detecting if a netrunner is hacking her (by default), and also knowing where the hack come from?
Just wonder... if V is able to, why enemies couldn't?

Can V do it while unconscious?

 

[rickboy333]

And the “gameplay purposes” reasoning is terrible.
Anyone can be a stealthy sniper, or a stealthy pistol, those things don’t set of any alarms.

But a group of gang members shaking down some guy in a back alley apparently have a fancy hack detection system with them.
Yeah that’s some “lore” right there.

I'm pretty sure anyone running simple cyberware (aka everyone) needs a virus scanner. If we have these detection systems in 2020 it can be assumed in 2077 that stuff is bog standard.

Tough if we're really going into the "lore friendly" rabbithole the whole concept of "quickhacking" doesn't make any sense. How you can do some really grusome things in game while you're "just" connected to the local wifi. No need for deep dives, no need for stuff other netrunners do. You can "hack" someone into cyberpychosis or sucide (meaning you can break their ICE) but you're incapable or deepdiving into the net.

 

[Guest 3847602]

But if you want to play the game in the most tedious and slowest way possible then that's up to you.

When I want to play as a stealth netrunner, I want to play that way from game's start to game's end. Which is entirely doable in 1.63.
If I'd wanted to play in the most tedious way possible I'd install 2.0.

Post automatically merged: Oct 27, 2023

More to the point, why do people think they should be able to guaranteed-one-shot ANYTHING by like level 8??

On the topic of one-shooting everything @ level 8 (just one post above the one you responded to):

I think that's partially true - yes, you cannnot one-shot every single enemy in Watson with SC (in 1.63), but the thing is - you don't have to do that in order to maintain stealth.
After being hit for the first time, enemies are entering "alerted mode" and start looking for you, not "combat mode" and start shooting at you (again, thanks to tracing mechanic being hackers-only exclusive). You have more than enough time to hit them 2nd or 3rd time provided you're standing far enough or are moving around...

So, I'm not exactly sure who you're arguing with or what point is this supposed to debunk...

 

[Soylencer]

When I want to play as a stealth netrunner, I want to play that way from game's start to game's end. Which is entirely doable in 1.63.
If I'd wanted to play in the most tedious way possible I'd install 2.0.

Post automatically merged: Oct 27, 2023

On the topic of one-shooting everything @ level 8 (just one post above the one you responded to):

So, I'm not exactly sure who you're arguing with or what point is this supposed to debunk...

I'm making a somewhat hyperbolic point about people who are complaining, ultimately, that you need to invest at least a little time and planning into a build because in more than one of these "netrunning dead" threads I've seen folks complain about having to get t2 drops or have extra perk points before being efficacious.

 

[Guest 3847602]

I'm making a somewhat hyperbolic point about people who are complaining, ultimately, that you need to invest at least a little time and planning into a build because in more than one of these "netrunning dead" threads I've seen folks complain about having to get t2 drops or have extra perk points before being efficacious.

Then you're missing the point - it's not about difficulty or the new system being too complex and people being too dumb to get the hang of it.
It's simply about fun, or complete lack of it. It's about introducing nonsensical restrictions and nonsensical solutions to those restrictions. In short - it's about ruining the netrunner fantasy.
For example, any netrunner who 's constantly spamming overclock and bring themself to the brink of death every 20 seconds doesn't seem like a badass, but look like a doofus. I have a really hard time imagining any competent netrunner (in Cyberpunk universe) being this stupid.
Same story with spamming Sonic Shock being the only way of avoiding detection.
And I believe the reason for all of that is because CDPR didn't even intend for people to play "the old way", it's just that players simply found the way to make it "kinda similar anyway, but only dumber" with what was left. Tools for stealth are way too limited and as a result, it's very repetitive. When you take a look at the entire intelligence skilltree, revamped quckhacks, new cyberware and what synergy is supposed to come out of that - I think it's pretty clear that "the new way" involves softening up enemies with quckhacks, causing few things to go "KABOOM", then charge in and finish off the remaining opponents with smart weapons or monowire (possibly screaming "BANZAI!", while you're at it). Because this is when the game really opens up and you can utilize everything the "new netrunners" have on their disposal.
And that is the single most embarrassing thing about the whole concept of new netrunning.

 

[vyvexthorne]

I haven't noticed that tracing matters too much unless there are enemies actually near you that you didn't take out. If you've taken out all the enemies in the immediate vicinity, the enemies further away don't leave their area to come look for you. You then just wait a bit or use optical camouflage and they'll lose track of you again.

 

[Crimsomrider]

Tools for stealth are way too limited

Agreed, not just limited but also not well designed either. Half of them are doing the exact same thing as the other ones, other half are doing stuff better than the other ones should be doing, which makes most hacks entirely pointless to even use.

For example when it comes to knocking out enemies;

• System Collapse 28 RAM (Ultimate) - Knocks out an enemy.
• Mind Wipe + Reboot Optics + Sonic Shock - Knocks out an enemy (good luck even using this combo with T5 Mind Wipe which costs 32 RAM)
• Covert Hack + Synapse Burnout - Knocks out an enemy by doing 1000% damage, but still cheaper than the first two examples
• Sonic Shock + Short Circuit - Knocks out an enemy without trace (cheaper than all above)
• Bait + Short Circuit - Knocks out an enemy but starts tracing (cheapest combo)

When it comes to dealing with Cyberpsychos;

• Mind Wipe (8 RAM) + Stealth Takedown = lol

When it comes to Ping:

• Ping - Doesn't even have Uncommon & Epic versions. It only comes as Common, Rare and Legendary.
• For the love of Bartmoss could have at least increased its duration so it has all rarities, but clearly they did not know what to put in it so they took out 2 of its rarities.

When it comes to blinding enemies;

• Reboot Optics - Doesn't blind enemies until T3 and always alerts them.
• Mind Wipe - Always blinds an enemy and never alerts them.

When it comes to Mind Wipe itself;

• Mind Wipe T2/T3/T4 - Blinds an enemy, doesn't alert them, reduces trace and makes all hacks untraceable for a mere 10 RAM.
• Mind Wipe T5 - Turns from a COVERT hack into a COMBAT PREVENTION mega ultimate hack which costs 32 RAM all of a sudden and entirely ruining its original use as a covert hack.

So yeah, it's a mess and a big reason why I personally prefer 1.6 quickhacks to 2.0. In 1.6 all of them had wonderful new gameplay mechanics and did so much more interesting in-lore accurate stuff, than some gimmick like 15% faster lock on with Smart Guns / 10% HP when you perform takedowns / Upload this to do this and gain this...

I'm slowly coming up with a feedback thread regarding the hacks, especially for the gonk ass T5 Mind Wipe.


As for Overclock, personally I feel pretty badass when I overclock myself and drop 10 enemies to the floor simultaneously without ever alerting anyone. Originally I hated the idea that now I have to click stuff and depend on it, but honestly.. actually pretty damn fun.

I disagree though that it's a doofus thing to be killing yourself because Netrunning by lore puts a ton of strain on the body depending on what's being done, to the point that Netrunners always wear their special suits and some even go under the ice for going into the Net. We as a player cannot go into the deep Net, but this is the next best thing in my opinion and to me at least feels pretty immersive.

Not to mention the whole meaning of the word "Overclock" is to push something above the safety limits, which is in this case portraying how much strain on the body it can do.

I believe they took this inspiration from Edgerunners. Not just from Netrunning in general, but also when Lucy hacks Adam Smasher she ends up straining herself so hard that it blows her cybernetics for a short time after Adam Smasher breaks her link.

But Overclock HP loss is honestly not even a problem, in fact I am able to Overclock myself x4 times in one go and feel pretty badass while doing it. Could probably go even further once I dump points into BODY.

• Creeping Death (Cool perk) - Heals you for any enemy taken out while undetected
• Heal-On-Kill (Cyberware) - Heals you any time you neutralize an enemy
• Biomonitor (Cyberware) - Shoots a health injector into your system when your health drops low (heals you twice during Overclock)
• And the numerous Overclock perks in the INT skill tree

 

[Nixilos]

For example, any netrunner who 's constantly spamming overclock and bring themself to the brink of death every 20 seconds doesn't seem like a badass, but look like a doofus. I have a really hard time imagining any competent netrunner (in Cyberpunk universe) being this stupid.

I agree with you but lets be fair, that's pretty much exactly the kind of gonk V is canonically. Unless you aren't gonna 100% the game, V just constantly makes poor decisions from a cybersecurity POV. How many times they gotta get spiked from shady BDs, or from plugging the personal link somewhere it shouldn't go despite supposedly knowing better (according to dialogue options) at high int?

Unfortunately, V is an overconfident script kiddy with a plot device between the ears keeping the lights on every time they make a fatal error in judgement.

I think it's pretty clear that "the new way" involves softening up enemies with quckhacks, causing few things to go "KABOOM", then charge in and finish off the remaining opponents with smart weapons or monowire (possibly screaming "BANZAI!", while you're at it).

It makes me wanna find a game purely dedicated to netrunners to play instead. To be the real deal we'd never get closer to a target than the edge of the local net, and enemy netrunners would be actually dangerous and cool to face off against.

Making it fiddlier to do the same overpowered junk we've always done just brings extra attention to how weak of a presentation this is for something as cool as netrunning. We still face no resistance, don't even have to breach a net to start pulling hax out of our ass, but now we gotta push 3 buttons instead of 1? Okay I guess?

Oh and everyone has been so impressed! My, how it revolutionized the game! Truly a design of all time. GOTY

 

[Guest 3847602]

I disagree though that it's a doofus thing to be killing yourself because Netrunning by lore puts a ton of strain on the body depending on what's being done, to the point that Netrunners always wear their special suits and some even go under the ice for going into the Net. We as a player cannot go into the deep Net, but this is the next best thing in my opinion and to me at least feels pretty immersive.

Yes, but I believe there are multiple layers of cyberspace and performing basic quickhacks shouldn't take the same strain on netrunner's body as venturing beyond Blackwall (for example) and you only need special suits or icebath when you're crossing into deeper, more dangerous layers and staying there for hours.
This may sound like nitpicky complain, but when so many little details suddenly start feeling wrong then there's no way for the bigger picture to look right anymore.

 

[Crimsomrider]

True, but we are after all doing a lot more gameplay wise than most Netrunners are capable of story wise, so it's pretty much a gameplay / lore disconnect in a way, which is why I personally kinda like Overclock making it seem like netrunning is putting a ton of stress on my body to sort of compensate for that.

Because of this I never ever got the impression like T-Bug or Nix are some sort of top of the line Netrunners; because what I regularly do in real-time gameplay and even story moments, they struggle and start sweating waterfalls just to open a simple door or hack into something.

Kinda reminds me of when Panam asks V who's Alt Cunningham and one of the replies offered by V is; "The best Nerunner in Night City".

I'm like; ALT WHO?! I'm the best Netrunner in Night City! Can merge Rogue AIs and wipe an entire army with nothing but my mind

 

[oliwoggle]

i don’t mind the trace progression since you can remove some of it with quick hacks and extend it with cyberwars.

But stealth is super bugged at the moment. I keep getting pulled into combat without anyone detecting me or a trace even starting.

 

[ToreadorVampire]

I've been playing for the last few hours with this RAM Reallocator (I think it might be PL exclusive) and jebus, it's obscene! I've got something like 30 RAM at base (that's after losing 4, for the privilege of quickhacks dealing crits). My cooldown is now just 15s to get ~9 RAM for free. I've got loads of +RAM after neutralising enemies and that RAM upgrade in my frontal cortex is T5++ as well; thus my RAM recovery ability is amazing.

I barely ever need to overclock anymore, just to mow down large groups of enemies from stealth. I only overclock if I'm spotted or there's some other reason that I need to flatline 5 or more enemies all in one salvo.

This single piece of cyberware almost feels like a cheat code, it's changed the game for me so much

Conclusion: stealth netrunning very much alive, even at high levels.

 

[Soylencer]

I've been playing for the last few hours with this RAM Reallocator (I think it might be PL exclusive) and jebus, it's obscene! I've got something like 30 RAM at base (that's after losing 4, for the privilege of quickhacks dealing crits). My cooldown is now just 15s to get ~9 RAM for free. I've got loads of +RAM after neutralising enemies and that RAM upgrade in my frontal cortex is T5++ as well; thus my RAM recovery ability is amazing.

I barely ever need to overclock anymore, just to mow down large groups of enemies from stealth. I only overclock if I'm spotted or there's some other reason that I need to flatline 5 or more enemies all in one salvo.

This single piece of cyberware almost feels like a cheat code, it's changed the game for me so much

View attachment 11372386

Conclusion: stealth netrunning very much alive, even at high levels.

Especially since fights *rarely* last more than a minute towards endgame.

Again this thread boils down to someone having a hard time and insisting the game has wingclipped and hamstrung them, while most of us are complaining it's too easy and maybe they need to tone it down.