Why does Letho want to restart the Viper School?

[Corylea.723]

Why does Letho want to restart the Viper School?

The books and the games have told us this:

1. The mutation process that makes a witcher is very painful and very dangerous. Out of every ten boys who underwent the Trial of the Grasses, SIX of them died, and that's just ONE of the trials. And even for the ones who survived, the experience was extremely painful.

2. Most of the really serious monsters -- the ones that only witchers could kill -- are dead. Groups of soldiers can take care of the monsters that are left.

So in taking a group of boys and training them to be witchers, one condemns two-thirds of them to death. The ones that don't die will suffer, will become infertile, and will be outcasts among most people.

Doing this might have been necessary right after the Conjunction of the Spheres dumped a lot of new monsters into the world, when there were lots of monsters that ordinary warriors couldn't kill. But the Conjunction was 1500 years ago, and witchers have killed off most of the monsters now.

Why re-start the Viper school, then? Why kill a bunch of little boys -- and torture the rest -- when it isn't necessary? Being the last of the witchers is sort of sad, but that's no reason to torture and kill a new batch of little boys.

I can see why the EMPEROR might want a witcher school in Nilfgaard, especially if he controls it. A power-hungry ruler who wants to conquer the world would surely want such super-warriors at his beck and call.

But why does LETHO want the school restarted?

 

[Garrison72]

That's a good question.

 

[wrathascending]

I suspect a large part of it would be down to indoctrination during the creation of a Witcher. Letho, Geralt, and the rest were probably all taught that being a Witcher was a great thing and that they were becoming a part of something greater, that being a Witcher was quite an honour, better than anything else they could have hoped for.

Having seen his school dwindle down to just himself, Serrit, Auckes and the Witcher Geralt kills at the end of TW1 would probably have left Letho feeling lonely and nostalgic. He seems to be pretty short-sighted in terms of what he wants and what he is willing to do to get it, too, so he might not have considered the fact that Witchers are no longer really needed or that re-establishing his School may be somewhere between difficult and impossible depending on whether the mutagens are all still available (Nenneke notes that a number of plants that were common have died off after the Conjunction during Geralt's convalescence in "The Last Wish"), whether there are mages with sufficient power and skill (though Emhyr can probably provide those if it suits him) and whether the knowledge to conduct the mutations is still available. The last part is the most critical; maybe the Vipers had an archive that survived or Emhyr has somehow gotten his hands on that information, which would put them a long way out in front of the Wolves. Vesemir was the most experienced Witcher the Wolves had left, but his primary expertise was with combat training- he couldn't teach Geralt, Lambert, Eskell, Coen or Berengar (presumably) much in the way of alchemy, and even with all the Wolves together none had any idea how to do more than the Trial of the Grasses for Ciri.

If Salamandra had Nilfgaardian backing as another means of destabilising the North before open warfare began, it's possible that Alvin, the Professor, or Azar passed on the knowledge, too.

This all assumes that the idea is to re-establish the Vipers as a traditional Witcher school. Letho may be planning to create a super-soldier cadre, an elite assassin's corps, or something along those lines. Having control over such a force would be useful to him, and since he's playing his own game politically he may have some plans on what to do with them.

 

[CostinRaz]

Well let me put it like this, having disease immunity during the Medieval ages is quite something, that an extended life, an education, sword training and well it's no wonder witchers would have a high opinion of their order.

As for why Letho cares for the order. Well maybe because he considers it his family? You might want to ask Geralt the same question as to why he cares for his own order.

As for Letho's plan. I strongly believe that Letho knew Emhyr was going to use the rebuilt Viper school as a military force and I think he accepts that since it would remove a lot of the discrimation against witchers. Instead of mutants wandering around and earning coin from peasants by killing monsters they'd become soldiers in army, they'd earn respect, honor, a good pay and even be considered heroes.

As for the lives aspect. How many soldiers would they save in battles? People with families and friends? People dragged to war often against their will ( I very much doubt Nilfgaard doesn't practice conscription ). The answer is a lot of lives of people who are in a war they did not choose to fight.

EDIT: As for monster numbers being severely reduced, that's in the north. In the Last Wish Geralt talks with Dandelion about how hard it is to find monsters to kill and Dandelion asks him why he doesn't go to the south since there a lot of monsters there.

 

[GuyNwah]

I suspect a large part of it would be down to indoctrination during the creation of a Witcher. Letho, Geralt, and the rest were probably all taught that being a Witcher was a great thing and that they were becoming a part of something greater, that being a Witcher was quite an honour, better than anything else they could have hoped for.

(snip)

This all assumes that the idea is to re-establish the Vipers as a traditional Witcher school. Letho may be planning to create a super-soldier cadre, an elite assassin's corps, or something along those lines. Having control over such a force would be useful to him, and since he's playing his own game politically he may have some plans on what to do with them.

My thinking is along those lines, too. Letho still sees being a Witcher as an important calling, and he comes across as an intelligent and ambitious man, so it's likely that he has good reasons for his willingness to make deals with the Emperor. These reasons are probably more concrete than nostalgia or the need for companionship.

By his actions and offhand remarks, Letho tells more than he means to say. He's already found a good answer to the question "without monsters, what's a monster slayer to do?" He's made more trouble for the kings of the North than a whole army of Black Ones. What mischief a corps of well trained witchers loyal to him could do, would astonish even Roche or White Rayla.

When he takes leave of Geralt (assuming Geralt lets him go), he says he will go "south, where the good life awaits". I wouldn't assume his idea of "the good life" means a sinecure or comfortable retirement in the Beauclair wine country. I think he has ambitious plans, and I wouldn't be surprised if they're well aligned with the Emperor's.

A Nilfgaardian corps of Viper witchers, led by a clever and able mentor and loyal to their patron the Emperor, would be a formidable arm for conducting multiple assassinations or widespread terrorism, or multiplying the power of armies in the field. The manner of man who will entertain creating such a corps will not boggle at the human cost of its creation.

 

[CostinRaz]

Guy: You make such awesome posts.

 

[Corylea.723]

Guy: You make such awesome posts.

Doesn't he, though? The last line of his last paragraph sums it all up so beautifully.

 

[CostinRaz]

Well that's how it generally goes with military leaders. You can't lead an army unless you look at your troops as expendable and you would go insane if you didn't do this. Not saying a leader doesn't care for his troops at all in fact caring about them to a degree is equally important:

Napoleon who sent so many thousands to their deaths did care about his men, yet he was still willing to send them die, even his closest friends. He was still loved by his men.

 

[Corylea.723]

Well that's how it generally goes with military leaders. You can't lead an army unless you look at your troops as expendable and you would go insane if you didn't do this. Not saying a leader doesn't care for his troops at all in fact caring about them to a degree is equally important:

Napoleon who sent so many thousands to their deaths did care about his men, yet he was still willing to send them die, even his closest friends. He was still loved by his men.

Does it make a difference that we're talking about children here, NOT about adult soldiers?

 

[Garrison72]

And I thought Letho was being played by the emperor, or at best a highly intelligent renegade. His plans of re-establishing a witcher school seem delusional at best.

 

[CostinRaz]

Does it make a difference that we're talking about children here, NOT about adult soldiers?

Children suffered a lot during the medieval era, they weren't treated as they are in modern age. They went to war at young ages, led kingdoms and armies and a lot of them died from diseases while very young or killed in war.

So I don't think Letho would care that much about the fact that there are children dying in the trials, certainly not more then how he would care about fellow adult witchers dying. Not saying he wouldn't care at all, because he would and he has shown in the story he did care for Geralt to a degree.

 

[Corylea.723]

And I thought Letho was being played by the emperor, or at best a highly intelligent renegade. His plans of re-establishing a witcher school seem delusional at best.

Starting with only the stolen mutagens and no other information, Salamandra managed to go pretty far towards the creation of witchers in only a few months. If there's any witcher lore kicking around -- in addition to the mutagens -- that the recreated schools could use, and if Emhyr puts a team of many mages on the job instead of just Azar Javed, then they could probably come fairly close.

And will Geralt then have to restart the Wolf school in order to combat the the witchers from the Viper school who don't live by the witchers' traditional code of neutrality?

They could have this series going on forever...

 

[GuyNwah]

Does it make a difference that we're talking about children here, NOT about adult soldiers?

Well, to people with recognizable human sentiments, it does. It's not immediately relevant to this situation, but I love the opera Peter Grimes because it lives on the question of whether and when it's acceptable to put children in danger.

But what an ambitious leader in a callous age would reckon to be "acceptable losses" among children consigned to the Trials, my mind doesn't want to go there.

 

[CostinRaz]

And will Geralt then have to restart the Wolf school in order to combat the the witchers from the Viper school who don't live by the witchers' traditional code of neutrality?

There is no witcher code. Geralt himself states that in the Last Wish. There is only a personal code each individual witcher has, but there is certainly no rule book they have to abide by.

But what an ambitious leader in a callous age would reckon to be "acceptable losses" among children consigned to the Trials, my mind doesn't want to go there.

They would go quite far in regards to what they would deem acceptable. Human history is litany of blood and death after all. Of leaders slaughtering tens if not hundreds of thousands to build empires upon.

It isn't however a good idea to look upon history through the modern lens.

 

[Corylea.723]

There is no witcher code. Geralt himself states that in the Last Wish. There is only a personal code each individual witcher has.

I know. But if Letho can restart his school for his own motives, then Geralt...

Human history is litany of blood and death after all.

That's HALF of the litany. There's an accompanying litany of altruism, heroism, and progress.

 

[CostinRaz]

I know. But if Letho can restart his school for his own motives, then Geralt...

Perspectives can change and we already have the choice of letting Letho go. I disagree with the notion that Geralt would always care to fight a rebuilt school of the Viper, maybe he would, or maybe he wouldn't.

That's HALF of the litany. There's an accompanying litany of altruism, heroism, and progress.

Progress made upon the corpses of billions of people dead and their suffering. The current prosperity we enjoy in our nations ( and while I might complain about my country it's still far better off the others ) has been built upon the backs of many who suffered and died.

Humanity has always advanced the most through conflict. Sure there was altruism ( I'd argue on the notion of heroism quite a bit ), but certainly not that much.

 

[Corylea.723]

Perspectives can change and we already have the choice of letting Letho go. I disagree with the notion that Geralt would always care to fight a rebuilt school of the Viper, maybe he would, or maybe he wouldn't.

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say he ALWAYS would. I said it was a path that CDPR could go down, if they wanted to spin things out indefinitely. An idle speculation.

Progress made upon the corpses of billions of people dead and their suffering. The current prosperity we enjoy in our nations ( and while I might complain about my country it's still far better off the others ) has been building upon the backs of many who suffered and died.

I wasn't talking about progress in material goods. I was talking about progress in ideas, in knowledge, and in morality.

Slavery was considered acceptable, inevitable, and justifiable in most parts of the world for centuries. And then our thinking about the worth and rights of fellow human beings progressed, and slavery was wiped out in most of the world.

"Might makes right" was an obvious truism throughout much of human history, and most kings and nobles took it as given that anything they wanted to do was right. Nowadays in at least some parts of the world, having the power to do something is separate from having the moral authority to do that thing, and most kings are restrained by constitutions and parliaments.

Germ theory instead of "miasma." Accurate knowledge of the workings of the human body instead of "humors." I could go on.

In many parts of the world, women are considered human beings, instead of domestic animals, like sheep and goats. In many parts of the world, children are considered human beings, instead of property.

Huge progress HAS been made. It's often been two steps forward, one step back, but that's still a net gain of one step forward, if you take the long view.

 

[CostinRaz]

Who said I was talking about materials?

In terms of knowledge thanks to the two world wars and the Cold War the followed we have gained a great deal of knowledge in the fields of medicine, science and technology. Would this progress have been made without the wars? Certainly but at much slower pace.

For instance World War 2 saw mass production of penicillin, which was then turned into mass production for civilian use ( also it was vastly improved during the war to what was before the war ).

 

[Corylea.723]

Who said I was talking about materials?

When I talked about "progress," you answered about "prosperity." It wasn't prosperity that I was talking about, and I said so.

In terms of knowledge thanks to the two world wars and the Cold War the followed we have gained a great deal of knowledge in the fields of medicine, science and technology. Would this progress have been made without the wars? Certainly but at much slower pace.

Okay, everything is gloom and doom. Evil always triumphs, and good is futile.

There, are you satisfied?

Sure, SOME of our knowledge came about because of wars. But not all of it. By no means all of it! Lots of it came about because people with restless minds were curious or because people who cared wanted to make things better. Yeah, the bad stuff happens; I'm not denying that. I'm just pointing out that trends towards growth and enlightenment exist, too, and they are also powerful.


Going to bed now; you'll have to argue with yourself.

 

[CostinRaz]

Going to bed now; you'll have to argue with yourself.

I'll just leave this until you come back.

Okay, everything is gloom and doom. Evil always triumphs, and good is futile.

Good and Evil are two things I honestly don't care about. I have my principles but I am not interesting in trying to judge what is good or what is evil.

Sure, SOME of our knowledge came about because of wars.

Some? Let me just list a few off the top of my head that came from the world wars and cold war, a small list because there are a lot of advancements we made during that time.

Jet aircraft, computers, internet, spaceflight, satellites ( which power world wide communications ), improved surgical techniques, mental treatments improvements ( created to help the massive amount of soldiers suffering from them ).

As for rights. The World Wars significantly improved women's rights in their aftermath considering the role women played during those wars. The fact that women took up men's jobs and performed them quite very well changed the way many people thought about the gender.

They certainly weren't the only factors in any of these advancements but did help a lot with the progress.