Why Ge'Els/Weavess were long forgotten

[uber_croupier]

Hello.

Great idea for a card mechanic, yet wasted opportunity. This guy needs a strong buff to become useful.

What cards can you consume with Ge'Els to be playable? Let's do some maths:
Kiki worker 7 for 5? - gives you 9 for 15 + random draw
An Elle Warrior 7 for 4? - gives you 9 for 14 + random draw(this can sometimes get you ahead by few points)
Pugo or Caldwell 10 for 7? - gives you 12 for 17 + random draw
Yghern 13 for 10? - gives you 15 for 20 + random draw

Considering you always keep the strongest cards in your hand, you will most likely draw something you did not want, resulting in crappy random draws that never helped me win a game. Many players argue that thinning option is what compensates, but do MO faction really needs thinning? In my opinion, it's a big nope.

Considering the above, let's think of other cards with similar effects.
Harald 6 for 11 not only thins your deck, but also plays that card giving you huge tempo swing, it's stronger by 4 and costs only 1 more which is immediately compensted by 1 dmg he will deal after playing a worrior from his ability also Boosting GS making it MUCH harder to remove.
Caranthir 3 for 8 has many powerful synergies with cards like Living Armour, Saer Quan, Beast or Cow Champion, giving you huge tempo swings. Of course, this needs a little more planning but considering value you get for 8P is much stronger than Ge'Els.
Royal Decree with same cost let's you play any unit you want, which in itself is much better than 2 body and random draw you probably did not want in your hand.

Ge'Els is coming with one but strong option when played from Naglfaar, cause he will draw the other gold you did not play. That is very rare, Gwent is not Hearthstone - RNG rarely wins you games - I tested Ge'Els in many maaany games on top ranks. I hate Hearthstone for all it's randomnes btw.

So I'd suggest to buff this fella, to make him unique in his ability, just like Caranthir.

1. Let player choose what card or type of card he draws(any unit, any card, gold card, Wild Hunt card)
or
2. Boost his power to 4.
or
3. Let it trigger Deathwish of Consumed unit.

I would not reduce his cost, since his ability can be very powerful and must be expensive, just needs a rework.

 

[Jollyrogerxberg]

I totally agree. Tryed him because Wildhunt you know but nooo.....
There are some more options you forgot to mention but neither any difference:
Griffin 8 for 5
Golyat 10 for 8
The Idea seams to mitigate negative efects of Yghern, Golyat, Griifn, Pugo.... But it's not worth it, even if anything alings you used Naglfar and want to activate Ozrel/Ghul, Just not a justifikation because their are other cheaper ways. Either he needs more basepower or a strong intype tutor efect. Like draw a Wildhunt card or what ever

 

[DRK3]

Disagree, he definitely doesnt need a buff.
He is supposed to be used with big units that have big downsides, they were already mentioned here - Yghern, Golyat, Caldwell and maybe even Pugo.
Drawing a card is super valuable, if you disagree just look at the provision cost of Dandelion Poet, which is a neutral version of current Ge'els.

If Ge'els seems bad, its because tall removal is quite prevalent, but then again, all other tall units MO are too, and resets in particular arent even that popular, only NR's bloody baron and SK's Morkvarg HoT (which is on every deck, of the most popular faction, so really everyone should be cautious of this).
Ge'els is basically another Ozzrel, even has the same value (+1pt but also +1provision)

(EDIT) Naglfar synergizes really well with Geels - you play Naglfar, pick one gold to play, use Geels on a big unit and immediately get the other gold that was shown to you

 

[uber_croupier]

I've played ~1200 games on all rank levels, I've seen Poet being played only once among all these games, simply because it's a bad card, and still better than Ge'Els cause he gives you tempo. For the same reason I never saw Weavess when she had his ability and I saw Ge'Els only played once recently, after it received this minor buff.

My deck was built around Ge'Els, but still, I've started winning more games after replacing Ge'Els with Royal Decree. While Decree is a neutral card, Ge'Els is a faction card which should make him superior to Decree. He is far worse because you never know what you draw and his 2 power does not compensate for this. Please see maths in first post. I did play Ge'Els/Weavess a lot before, but had to remove them on top ranks because it gave me negative values in my games.

Yes, Ge'Els works fine when played via Naglfaar, but that will still make you draw crappy bronze later instead of a gold you would probably have in your hand anyway. And to actually play Ge'Els with Naglfarr, it's not that easy as it seems, unless you have only few golds in your deck.

It's wrong to compare Ozzrell(epic) to Ge'Els(legend). Because Ge'Els weakens your hand while Ozzrel consumes unit in a graveyeard - unit you would never see in game anymore. Ozzrell has ability to consume a unit in enemy's graveyard as well(like Boar or Mork), which can cause trouble with enemies synergies later on making it much easier to play around. These are two completely different cards and Ozzrell is far far better.

 

[wonderboy870]

Don’t forget the value of deck thinning. With the proper emphasis (wild hunt rider, winter queen, maybe roach and knickers if you go non devotion,) you can increase consistency and ensure your entire is available. This method does have risks as well, but don’t ignore the potential.

 

[Jollyrogerxberg]

Disagree, he definitely doesnt need a buff.
He is supposed to be used with big units that have big downsides, they were already mentioned here - Yghern, Golyat, Caldwell and maybe even Pugo.
Drawing a card is super valuable, if you disagree just look at the provision cost of Dandelion Poet, which is a neutral version of current Ge'els.

If Ge'els seems bad, its because tall removal is quite prevalent, but then again, all other tall units MO are too, and resets in particular arent even that popular, only NR's bloody baron and SK's Morkvarg HoT (which is on every deck, of the most popular faction, so really everyone should be cautious of this).
Ge'els is basically another Ozzrel, even has the same value (+1pt but also +1provision)

(EDIT) Naglfar synergizes really well with Geels - you play Naglfar, pick one gold to play, use Geels on a big unit and immediately get the other gold that was shown to you

Okay, you raised good arguments here. Yes Mork and Baron are his biggest lose cons and last meta poison was,too.
Instead of Ozzrel you need to play him early because you don't want to draw your random card last so you can't dodge the punishment through last say. And his biggest downside compared to Ozzrel is, you can't use the unit u consume. Ozzrel just adds a play while Ge'els replaces another big play.

Yghern + Ozzrel = 13p + 14p (13,5/play / 2 plays)
cost 11pp + 9pp = 20pp on 2 Slots (10/card)

Ge'els + Yghern = 15 + random card = 15+ x + thinning
cost 10pp + 11pp = 21pp on 2 slots

Ge'els + Yghern + Ozzrel = 15p + 14+ = 29p + thinning (14,5/play / 2 plays) +X
cost 10pp + 11pp + 9pp = 30pp on 3 slots (10,5/card)
As you see X is the Problem. You Pay for one large unit and just put it in graveyard.

I did this calculation just with the biggest gold because you want gain if you play a 10p card. Probably his curve is better if you consume bronce units wich can give you a better ratio of points added and points lost. Like playing Griffin without tokens or An Elle without devotion (okay an elle is more of an extreme). As his ability is a relic of times when scorch, geralt and Leo were tall removal heroes and Yghern did not exist nor poison or Baron or Mork and eating a Griffiin for 10 (or was it 9?) was not to expansive and in fact a powerplay he is just outdated. Only because of the new wildhunt and his inclusion this ability is worth discussing.
My Idea would be to restrict him on bronces. That way he would be a way to gain Dominance and make a good thinnig move by traiding a bronce for a random card without commiting to much. With a small adjustment to his stats (2/8 or 3/9) this would be grate.

Now he only can gain good value if you use him with Naglfar and probably Ozzrel later and that makes your Mulligans wierd and your deck expansive. The true sadness is they looked at him and just had one of two necessary thoughts:
they realised his ability is not fitting and swapped it with another not used card. They did not thought about the fact why the card is not used.

 

[Menelaus234]

Ge'els is pretty good when you look at him in relation to the other thinning options that MO has:

Foglet - needs you to use a consume to get his thinning value otherwise it's a 3 body

Wild hunt rider - needs you to have dominance otherwise it's a 3 body

Winter queen - takes up 8 prov and you need devotion for the thrive, and you need to invest in double row frost

With ge'els you get:
-instant thinning
-get a card in hand
-it'll usually proc your thrive engines.
-early dominance to enable other dominance plays

you'll also be able to get value from any tall units while avoiding their weaknesses like pugos -3, golyat summoning opponents highest unit, yghern armor, Caldwell switch etc

 

[DRK3]

Okay, you raised good arguments here. Yes Mork and Baron are his biggest lose cons and last meta poison was,too.
Instead of Ozzrel you need to play him early because you don't want to draw your random card last so you can't dodge the punishment through last say. And his biggest downside compared to Ozzrel is, you can't use the unit u consume. Ozzrel just adds a play while Ge'els replaces another big play.

Yghern + Ozzrel = 13p + 14p (13,5/play / 2 plays)
cost 11pp + 9pp = 20pp on 2 Slots (10/card)

Ge'els + Yghern = 15 + random card = 15+ x + thinning
cost 10pp + 11pp = 21pp on 2 slots

Ge'els + Yghern + Ozzrel = 15p + 14+ = 29p + thinning (14,5/play / 2 plays) +X
cost 10pp + 11pp + 9pp = 30pp on 3 slots (10,5/card)
As you see X is the Problem. You Pay for one large unit and just put it in graveyard.

I did this calculation just with the biggest gold because you want gain if you play a 10p card. Probably his curve is better if you consume bronce units wich can give you a better ratio of points added and points lost. Like playing Griffin without tokens or An Elle without devotion (okay an elle is more of an extreme). As his ability is a relic of times when scorch, geralt and Leo were tall removal heroes and Yghern did not exist nor poison or Baron or Mork and eating a Griffiin for 10 (or was it 9?) was not to expansive and in fact a powerplay he is just outdated. Only because of the new wildhunt and his inclusion this ability is worth discussing.
My Idea would be to restrict him on bronces. That way he would be a way to gain Dominance and make a good thinnig move by traiding a bronce for a random card without commiting to much. With a small adjustment to his stats (2/8 or 3/9) this would be grate.

Now he only can gain good value if you use him with Naglfar and probably Ozzrel later and that makes your Mulligans wierd and your deck expansive. The true sadness is they looked at him and just had one of two necessary thoughts:
they realised his ability is not fitting and swapped it with another not used card. They did not thought about the fact why the card is not used.

You say Ge'els biggest downside is that you cant use the unit you consume... That's not even a downside, that's its upside, so you dont risk an opponent killing your Golyat and getting another big unit, or killing a Yghern that only had 4/5 armor because you were forced to play it late.

The actual downsides to Ge'els, comparing to Ozzrel, were mentioned by you and the OP: you cant play it last, so its always vulnerable to resets/tall removal, and you cant use it to consume a unit on opponent's graveyard, to keep him from ressurecting it. Those are actual reasons why you might prefer Ozzrel.

And the calculations for its value fail to consider the best option when using Ge'els - not using him R3, use him earlier, so if you get a weaker card from deck, you dont have to play it and can mulligan it later on. Ge'els is a thinning tool, not a tutor.

 

[Jollyrogerxberg]

Sure, sure it's not easy to calculate the draw. And yes the downside is the upside^^. Let me try an example because I missed the Point earlier:

Is Golyat that vulnarable all the time that I want to pay 10 for 2 to dodge it? Mork and Baron say: NO! nobody plays Geralt or Leo.
Is Ygherns 7? armor that bad compared to a buff by 13? same as above
I can do that with a Bhargest or Barbegasi or Kayran at a better price or countless other cheaper consumes

Do I want to swap a Golyat/Yghern in my hand with a random draw? and pay 10 for 2
Just pay for sleepy speartip and play both.

The Problem is the missing payoff. It does a lot of good things at once but non of them good. Thinning - yes but random and expensive. Tempo - yes but only 2 extra

The Vulnerable Big Boys are just not vulnerable enough.
I guess Roach is just better. Or Dandelion who does not restrict you to a Big Boy.

 

[uber_croupier]

Don’t forget the value of deck thinning.

Do MOs really need thinning? Royal Decree does muuuch better job then Ge'Els and it's a neutral card. Neutrals should not be superior to faction cards withy similar effect.

Ge'Els tempo doesn't exist. His 2 extra pointa are worthless when it comes to Dominance. I rather play a card i want with Decreee, rather than pull random bronze(in around 85% of cases)

Is Ygherns 7? armor that bad compared to a buff by 13? same as above
I can do that with a Bhargest or Barbegasi or Kayran at a better price or countless other cheaper consumes

Exactly this.

I suggest you use it guys as much as I did and surely you will come to the same conclusion. Ge'Els is nothing special atm really, that's why I started this topic.

 

[wonderboy870]

Do MOs really need thinning? Royal Decree does muuuch better job then Ge'Els and it's a neutral card. Neutrals should not be superior to faction cards withy similar effect.

Ge'Els tempo doesn't exist. His 2 extra pointa are worthless when it comes to Dominance. I rather play a card i want with Decreee, rather than pull random bronze(in around 85% of cases)



Exactly this.

I suggest you use it guys as much as I did and surely you will come to the same conclusion. Ge'Els is nothing special atm really, that's why I started this topic.

Neutrals are often much better than faction cards. That’s why they added devotion to focus the decks. Without neutrals you can still deck thin 3 cards with MO. No other faction besides SK with discard can do that. Really with Foglet you could thin 4. That is a nice advantage but comes at a cost.

 

[uber_croupier]

Fine fine. Let's leave Ge'Els unplayable - like many other cards.

 

[Menelaus234]

That's my current match history running with ge'els in my dominance deck at rank 5. Card is not 'unplayable' in any way, quite the opposite.

[image removed]

 

[uber_croupier]

Nice, but why would we care about rank 5? Try playing Ge'Els on higher ranks after you climb. Ge'Els worked for me to some point as well.

 

[Menelaus234]

Theres only 4 ranks above wdym? xD did it suddenly stop working for you at rank 3 or something?

 

[Jollyrogerxberg]

Yes, Rank 3 is kind of a bottleneck. Everyone who finishes a season in pro rank but below top 200 (?) gets demoted to Rank 3. As a result Rank 3 to 1 is full of players using their best possible way to climb back to pro. So its Sk / T1 decks galore. Diversity will raise a bit after reaching pro again but you will meet only strong decks, so you will exclude unreliable cards.

 

[Menelaus234]

already feels like im facing endless skellige and nilf players and still beating them left and right, guess we'll see.

 

[Jollyrogerxberg]

already feels like im facing endless skellige and nilf players and still beating them left and right, guess we'll see.

keep on! This is also the spot to abuse antimeta and feed on clueless copiecats. I wish you all success and if you keep on having ggod results, well I am always ready to change my opinion. It's still a game and I enjoy calculating startegies and overall theorie crafting and allways happy to learn something new.

 

[judgecsk]

Both Ge'Els and the Weaves don't seem like a good plan for ranked play since they can be easily dealt with by most of the enemy factions, ofc i'm talking bout ranked play and going against well prepared decks.
The cards are not bad for fun play though on ranked imho i prefer the versatility Ozzrel brings to the table in terms of carrying the power of one strong card to a following round or banishing a strong card from the oponent's GY.
Now on the subject of deck thinning, the WH Rider's work just fine on most cases and the Frost Queen can be drawn out by using the "Red Riders" frost effect.
Not including the "Echo" frost card helps aswell since it wastes a precious draw.
Now on the subject of "dominance", i've built a deck around "Force of Nature" and can use that at any time on demand to get the advantage i need and it works like a charm more often than not !

 

[uzun0764]

Ge'els is too weak now. Old Ge'els (before Gaunter's challenge) is good. He was trigger deatwish ability. Now, pff, too weak. Maybe he rework, 'İf you play wild hunt unit, damage random enemy unit/boost allied wild hunt unit by 1'. maybe it's just my idea