Why have voiced protagonist?

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I don't think this is the place to do the whole "is it an RPG or not" song and dance. Just as there are different types of shooters, there are different types of RPGs. This is more about, do all RPGs need to have silent or voiced protagonists, or is there a situation where it's OK to have one or the other.

And, more to the point, would Cyberpunk 2077 -- as a CDPR-style RPG, not as a Bethesda or Obsidian-style RPG -- be better served by having a silent protagonist? In my opinion, no. They make story and CINEMATIC-heavy games (NOT Cinematic in the literal sense), and as such, they want your V to be responding with the appropriate tone/etc. for the situation they are portraying.

Think of 2077 as a very widely branching choose your own adventure novel, or one of those mobile Sorcery!-style games (which are very good by the way). The latter takes into account things like your character's build, but it's still funneling you down a pre-defined story and path.

Clarified with "Cinematic-heavy," because some might assume I'm saying games with silent protagonists cannot be story focused.
 
Bethesda RPG? Sandbox RPG, story is not a focus.

Well, stories doesn't forcibly need characterization anyway, just that's it's easier to write about defined peoples that about events (even if, considering the few we know about the story beginning it could very well have been a story about the Immortality chip than a story about V, you just needed a generic way to implant the chip in V like an abduction + V being the guinea pig).
It's just that CDProjekt seems to prefer to write about people and that's it.
 
Actually no, the main character isn't us but V.
That’s not true even the devs stated that v is us the player that’s why you create a character in the beginning it’s not a character with a set name/personality/appearance/backstory like geralt
 
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That’s not true even the devs stated that v is us the player that’s why you create a character in the beginning it’s not a character with a set name/personality like geralt
Well, devs stated some things that ended not being true either by being changed during development or other reasons (like perceived fun).
And actually yes, V is less defined than Geralt as you can choose how V looks and a little about it's background, but that's it.

You'll still be doing things not because you wants to, but because V wants to. You'll still be spending time with people you don't know nor you care about, because V does.

I personally think as V as just a step in the good direction, but by far not a persona I create and even less my avatar to immerse myself in another world.
 
Is this just left over from an earlier stage of development or what? I don't understand why put the time and resources in to making something that wont be used outside of in-game mirrors (which they could easily have just not included) or riding a motorcycle (which could have been in the same perspective as the rest of the game for cohesion) especially if different outfits are modeled on the character? That time could have been spent making more dialogue options or other things that will be used regularly. I've been trying to play The Outerworlds to get used to "that type" of game and so far the CC has been completely pointless. You only see your character in the stat screen but that could have just been a stat screen with stats only and no character picture like many other games. Also I don't know how other people feel about a voiced protagonist in "that type" of game but to me that seems pointless as well and we could have had more dialogue options with a silent protagonist.
I wanted 3rd person. Didn't get it. Not going to get it. No point in continuing the debate, as far as I can tell.

As to voiced character, I don't care one way or the other. But it's become the norm for AAA titles, and so there's no way that they could do a silent character even if they wanted to. It wouldn't sell to the masses.
 
I personally think as V as just a step in the good direction, but by far not a persona I create and even less my avatar to immerse myself in another world.

This is a good way to express this.

It's a step in the right direction compared to the Witcher 3, but it's not a giant leap for these games either.
I wanted 3rd person. Didn't get it. Not going to get it. No point in continuing the debate, as far as I can tell.

As to voiced character, I don't care one way or the other. But it's become the norm for AAA titles, and so there's no way that they could do a silent character even if they wanted to. It wouldn't sell to the masses.
Outer Worlds seemed to do quite well.
 
Well, devs stated some things that ended not being true either by being changed during development or other reasons (like perceived fun).
And actually yes, V is less defined than Geralt as you can choose how V looks and a little about it's background, but that's it.

You'll still be doing things not because you wants to, but because V wants to. You'll still be spending time with people you don't know nor you care about, because V does.

I personally think as V as just a step in the good direction, but by far not a persona I create and even less my avatar to immerse myself in another world.

Except Geralt already had largely pre-defined abilities in swordmanship, signs and alchemy. Yeah, you could improve those areas as you wanted in the character progression but they were still all both usable and effective. All three were also still the underlying design of the character abilities.

Being able to freely progress your character toward some combination of solo, technical or hacking related skills is a pretty big difference. Even if at first glance, based on existing information, it still looks like a simplified progression system I'd say the signs point toward a more player definable character. And, those areas may not have been presented as a finished product yet.

Even the choices presented in terms of dialogue and narrative in TW3 were clearly based around the defined character of Geralt. You had choices here or there and could change the game result based on those cumulative choices but every decision could be argued as fitting with this defined character, in some capacity. I see no reason to expect CP2077 will have less freedom in this regard. I'd anticipate it having exponentially more because V is effectively a placeholder.

How V looks and the background is it? Come on.... Background itself is huge. I'll reserve commenting on the appearance elements for... reasons. Regardless, insinuating we're getting a rehash of a heavily defined character in CP2077 is a pretty big stretch. I can understand raising issues with the game but sometimes I think people are just trashing it in various areas because existing information makes them feel it's not setting everything up exactly as they desire. It's not a good look.

In any case, most of this is... off-topic. It has very little to do with a voiced vs silent protagonist. I wouldn't be surprised if the above gets modded because of it. Alas, I felt obligated to refute the notion V is Geralt with the ability to customize his/her appearance and background. It's a gross oversimplification.

In regards to a voiced protagonist somehow infringing on the ability of the player to express the character as they see fit... I just don't see it. That viewpoint certainly isn't wrong. I just don't understand why it's a huge downside to getting some type of feedback from the character. The player can choose to pretend how their character feels or thinks whether there is a voice behind this feedback or not. More importantly, those feelings and thoughts have zero game play implications unless the 1's and 0's behind the game say they do.

You will be locked into pre-programmed choices in dialogue. You could have two choices, five choices, two dozen choices. The fact remains you're imprisoned within the game because, unlike in PNP, everything cannot be changed on a whim. I see no reason the various choices in dialogue and conversation cannot be voiced in a reasonably way where, given the selection and circumstances, the auditory response from the character makes sense. To me it's a better alternative to picking a text selection and getting nothing back from it. Even if it may not perfectly align with how I think the character should respond.

I will say those comments depend on the implementation. I'd view it exactly as I would being presented with choices where the actual results don't line up with the text selection verbatim. The mechanics here are fine. Provided the actual response and selection match appropriately. Yes, sometimes they do not when this approach is used. I wouldn't fault the concept there. I'd fault the execution. AKA, whomever made that "translation" screwed up if the option you pick gives wildly unexpected results.

I'd view voice overs the same way. The solution there with a less defined character is to carefully match the auditory response to the text selection so it "fits". As in, no matter what you want your character to be it would make sense for that auditory feedback to exist for that choice when it's selected. Again, based on the circumstances surrounding the choice. Difficult to pull off, sure. Impossible to pull it off well enough? I'd dispute that.
 
Except Geralt already had largely pre-defined abilities in swordmanship, signs and alchemy. Yeah, you could improve those areas as you wanted in the character progression but they were still all both usable and effective. All three were also still the underlying design of the character abilities.

You really think V won't be able to use abilities before upgrading them?
Hell, V's cyber gun handle interface is even mandatory!

Being able to freely progress your character toward some combination of solo, technical or hacking related skills is a pretty big difference. Even if at first glance, based on existing information, it still looks like a simplified progression system I'd say the signs point toward a more player definable character. And, those areas may not have been presented as a finished product yet.

Actually some people here were able long ago to mostly know what the different skill sets would be based on TW3 because of how much the two systems seemed alike.

Even the choices presented in terms of dialogue and narrative in TW3 were clearly based around the defined character of Geralt. You had choices here or there and could change the game result based on those cumulative choices but every decision could be argued as fitting with this defined character, in some capacity. I see no reason to expect CP2077 will have less freedom in this regard. I'd anticipate it having exponentially more because V is effectively a placeholder.

As I already said before, V will have more freedom, but only a little more. However V will still be heavily characterized and all dialogues will be fitting for V and not just baseless possibilities.

How V looks and the background is it? Come on.... Background itself is huge. I'll reserve commenting on the appearance elements for... reasons. Regardless, insinuating we're getting a rehash of a heavily defined character in CP2077 is a pretty big stretch. I can understand raising issues with the game but sometimes I think people are just trashing it in various areas because existing information makes them feel it's not setting everything up exactly as they desire. It's not a good look.

From what we've seen, background packs (as from what we know for the moment you takes whole packs, you're not able to customize them at all) act gameplay wise just as "Etiquette" in Shadowrun, than mean just knowledge skills (which probably a quest or two associated with it) and I don't remember Shadowrun being praised for having 7 of them.

Actually I would have prefered the game to have way more mental skills, and those not locked by the beginning of the game, so I won't praise for a system I think gimped.

In any case, most of this is... off-topic. It has very little to do with a voiced vs silent protagonist. I wouldn't be surprised if the above gets modded because of it. Alas, I felt obligated to refute the notion V is Geralt with the ability to customize his/her appearance and background. It's a gross oversimplification.

Still have to see actually actual differences.

In regards to a voiced protagonist somehow infringing on the ability of the player to express the character as they see fit... I just don't see it. That viewpoint certainly isn't wrong. I just don't understand why it's a huge downside to getting some type of feedback from the character. The player can choose to pretend how their character feels or thinks whether there is a voice behind this feedback or not. More importantly, those feelings and thoughts have zero game play implications unless the 1's and 0's behind the game say they do.

It's a matter of tone.
If you don't see the point then you didn't used internet forums as much as I did, because there is many times there were problems because I don't use enough smiley.

You will be locked into pre-programmed choices in dialogue. You could have two choices, five choices, two dozen choices. The fact remains you're imprisoned within the game because, unlike in PNP, everything cannot be changed on a whim. I see no reason the various choices in dialogue and conversation cannot be voiced in a reasonably way where, given the selection and circumstances, the auditory response from the character makes sense. To me it's a better alternative to picking a text selection and getting nothing back from it. Even if it may not perfectly align with how I think the character should respond.

Having actually "suffered" from that because of a lot less choice in Mass Effect 3, I cannot agree.
As I didn't actually played one extreme archetype I wasn't able to recognize my version of Shepard anymore and it's (one of) the reason I didn't liked the game.
And that's what voiced dialogues do: they thin the numbers of dialogues.

I'd view voice overs the same way. The solution there with a less defined character is to carefully match the auditory response to the text selection so it "fits". As in, no matter what you want your character to be it would make sense for that auditory feedback to exist for that choice when it's selected. Again, based on the circumstances surrounding the choice. Difficult to pull off, sure. Impossible to pull it off well enough? I'd dispute that.

Actually there are non voiced games out them with almost perfect choices. Still have to see one with voiced player character.
 
not just baseless possibilities.

Baseless character doen't exist. I wonder even one game exists which has compeletely empty protagonist.

Look at Skyrim. You are, forcibly, a prisoner who are caught because you are illegally crossing the board.

Look at Fallout series, VTMB, Baldur's Gate and so on. You has background and things to do however little it is. Your chocies, actions are also limited by developers in advance.

I mean, there are no objective standards in this problem. You are literally compelling other people to accept your standards.

If someone think Cyberpunk is the RPG they are playing as themselves whether V say something or not, let them be. Why do you keep saying that it's not? Will you do the same if someone say some movie is/isn't fun?
 
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Look at Skyrim. You are, forcibly, a prisoner who are caught because you are illegally crossing the board.

Nope, you are a prisoner but nothing actually confirm that you were illegally crossing the board (unless of course you consider every suspect as guilty). Which leaves only the prisonner thing which isn't a problem because it's something that happens to your character, not something he wanted to be.
I actually already spoke about that when I spoke of character based story (which is what CDprojekt prefers) VS event based story (which are better in terms of character liberty).

Actually Skyrim is an example of how you can make a story without hampering roleplay liberty. Everything is about what happens to the character and around him, not the character wanting to do things.

Look at Fallout series, VTMB, Baldur's Gate and so on. You has background and things to do however little it is. Your chocies, actions are also limited by developers in advance.

In many Fallout the character doesn't wants to do things (Fallout 1 and New Vegas). In other games like Fallout 2 and Baldur's Gate the character stop wanting things after the intro (Arroyo for Fallout 2 and the fort town for Baldur's Gate).

And I've already answered about technical limitations and won't repeat myself again.


I mean, there are no objective standards in this problem. You are literally compelling other people to accept your standards.

If someone think Cyberpunk is the RPG they are playing as themselves whether V say something or not, let them be. Why do you keep saying that it's not? Will you do the same if someone say some movie is/isn't fun?

Because it's not the case. If the player wants something and V wants another then the player isn't V, it's only logical.
And the fun of a movie is subjective, so I don't see the point.

And actually why I do care about that whole thing is because I know C2020, and there are many things that seems unacceptable to me that will be imposed to me by V, like being friend with a ganger (or even ex ganger, that doesn't make a difference to me).
 
This thread is about silent/voiced protagonist, not about what is or isn't an RPG, what is or isn't a custom character, etc.. Back on topic, and further off-topic will be deleted.
 
You will be locked into pre-programmed choices in dialogue. You could have two choices, five choices, two dozen choices. The fact remains you're imprisoned within the game because, unlike in PNP, everything cannot be changed on a whim. I see no reason the various choices in dialogue and conversation cannot be voiced in a reasonably way where, given the selection and circumstances, the auditory response from the character makes sense. To me it's a better alternative to picking a text selection and getting nothing back from it. Even if it may not perfectly align with how I think the character should respond.
As I already said before, V will have more freedom, but only a little more. However V will still be heavily characterized and all dialogues will be fitting for V and not just baseless possibilities.

This is the crux of it. CDPR has always presented Geralt and the entire execution of their stories as a "choose your own adventure" approach. The story and combat mechanics had a lot of lateral leeway, but the story was very planned-out and systematically executed. Felt more like an interactive film than a more "purist" RPG experience (ala the D&D Gold Box games, Darklands, or Mount and Blade.)

So a voiced protagonist very much accentuates what the games do really, really, really well -- deliver an engrossing narrative with a ton of dramatic energy. Can't accomplish that level of cinematic wow if one of the key characters (the player's character)...has...no voice. (And I mean that in both the literal and metaphorical sense. Scenes like the Isle of Mists in TW3 can't really happen if Geralt is a silent puppet.)
  • So, in Mount and Blade, I can come up with a totally unique vision for a character and engage in a shapeless experience that I give form to. I mold my adventure in my image, and use the game mechanics to achieve whatever end I want. True, open-ended game play. The price: no story. No balanced dramatic arc.
  • In TW3, we get a beautifully balanced, cinematic experience with nuanced characters and plots, and we still enjoy a lot of open-ended gameplay. The price: a narrower framework. Everything must fit into the narrative arc.

...you are a prisoner but nothing actually confirm that you were illegally crossing the board (unless of course you consider every suspect as guilty). Which leaves only the prisonner thing which isn't a problem because it's something that happens to your character, not something he wanted to be.

One of the things I've always wanted Beth games to do more with is react to who the player is. Sure, very few games let me create a character exactly according to my vision...and very few games then proceed to make those choices almost utterly inconsequential aside from combat and an occasional side quest.

And that brings us right to Cyberpunk 2077. We will be limited to our Lifepath choices. We will have limited dialogue options and such. We will be handed a performance for our V. But in return, our V will be intricately connected to the events of the story, and we will get to see the cinematic results of our choices.

Maybe a better way to look at it is casting the actor then designing the character and directing the scenes. Just like TW3, Mass Effect, or Detroit, we decide how we want the scene to go, then the actors surprise us with an awesome performance. I'd argue this takes great advantage of the medium (computer software: video / audio / input) to deliver the action and energy of the game and the world.

Is it the "best" way to do it? No, of course not. There is no "best" way. But it's a great way to do it. Look at TW3.
 
Anyone who doesn't want a voiced protagonist needs to go through all the gameplay footage and imagines every dialogue section without VA, it's awkward as fuck and doesn't work with how CDPR wants to do the dialogue system and interactive cutscenes.
You can't have a cinematic game and a mute character, it just ends up looking dumb, Destiny 2 is a great example, every cutscene in that game looks ridiculous because the player character just stares like a moron to everything happening around him because that's supposed to be "us" and has no voice, but it just doesn't work.
For this to work CDPR would need a whole new way to go about this, but creating cinematic experiences with RPG elements is their strength and they will stick to it, its also what sells more and what more people prefer so there's that.
 
You really think V won't be able to use abilities before upgrading them?
Hell, V's cyber gun handle interface is even mandatory!

Yes, I'd expect V will be able to use abilities before upgrading them. The difference is I do not expect V to exhibit the level of proficiency Geralt did without spending a single point in a given ability.

Actually some people here were able long ago to mostly know what the different skill sets would be based on TW3 because of how much the two systems seemed alike.

There do appear to be similarities but there also appear to be large differences. Skill improvement through use sticks out like a sore thumb, for one (even though they're gated by stats, from the looks of it). I think the similarities boil down to the mechanics behind the progression systems CDPR has created to date (it's in their comfort zone). I'd call TW3 a perk system with skills lumped into it. The CP2077 progression, on the other hand, actually looks like it attempts to create independent skills. It also has stats. These aren't minor differences.

As I already said before, V will have more freedom, but only a little more. However V will still be heavily characterized and all dialogues will be fitting for V and not just baseless possibilities.

As mentioned, TW3 was quite clearly built from the ground up around the inclusion of Geralt. I don't think the heavily defined component applied to Geralt is going to be true for "V" at all. The released content may make V appear as a formed character but I'm anticipating the character is a placeholder (bearing in mind things like demos aren't much to go on, as they exist to showcase game play). Yes, V might be a mercenary. V might know other characters in the game world ahead of time. None of this suggests V will be defined as heavily as Geralt.

From what we've seen, background packs (as from what we know for the moment you takes whole packs, you're not able to customize them at all) act gameplay wise just as "Etiquette" in Shadowrun, than mean just knowledge skills (which probably a quest or two associated with it) and I don't remember Shadowrun being praised for having 7 of them.

Actually I would have prefered the game to have way more mental skills, and those not locked by the beginning of the game, so I won't praise for a system I think gimped.

Well, I'm getting the feeling people are underestimating the impacts from those "life paths". Based on tidbits here and there the expectation is these will follow similar rules to Geralt above. That is, the game content will be built around the inclusion of each life path. It would be like building the content around the inclusion of one character. Instead of a fully fleshed out character you have multiple fully fleshed out life paths. If this is true it's not just a matter of defining a character background. Instead it will influence your game from start to finish.

It's a matter of tone.
If you don't see the point then you didn't used internet forums as much as I did, because there is many times there were problems because I don't use enough smiley.

I was not suggesting the auditory component to everything spoken can be narrowed down to a rigid, unchanging thing. After all, a great deal of communication is based on body language, tone, etc. I do think a lot of things can be though. If you're sneaking into the back door of a building and trying to remain undetected it's highly unlikely anything said is going to be yelled. That would be a sure-fire way to ruin the plan. Likewise, in the middle of a gun fight it's unlikely anyone is whispering. It would be pointless.

By carefully considering the context of the dialogue, what is being said, the circumstances surrounding it, why it's being said, etc. you can probably compose the auditory component in a way where any rational individual would say the sounds fit the words. It doesn't have to be the exact interpretation of the player. It merely has to be close enough.

This is why I mentioned text failing to match up with what the character really says. It's only a problem if the difference between the selection and the actual result is wildly inconsistent. As an example, I pick X expecting to get X but end up getting Y out of the character. In this case there was a failure somewhere in the process where the developers attempted to match these two entities together.

Stepping into the realm of opinion for a second.... It's better to me to have a voiced character because the player gets feedback when the character speaks. When you don't have this feedback it comes off as cheap. It can easily lead to certain undesirable results (the earlier TOW commentary is an example). I'd stress I am not at all saying this view is the correct one. I fully understand why some players prefer silent protagonists.

Lastly, they could provide a game option to disable the voice-overs. I'd would not expect such a feature to be a challenge to implement. By offering it... everyone ends up happy.
 
Lastly, they could provide a game option to disable the voice-overs. I'd would not expect such a feature to be a challenge to implement. By offering it... everyone ends up happy.

They should, and it will work even better as we won't see V using the "wrong" kind of face as the game is FPP.
 
There's a lot of optional toggles they could (and probably should) add among this one.

One thing about a simple "V-VO off" toggle... just doing it like that might not work if the dialog is specifically composed for voice overs. This also makes the "think about the videos without VO" thing that one guy suggested, a bit outside the grid here (I actually did that, and saw just one thing that would disrupt the flow or make it somewhat awkward). Every time you press a dialog option, there would be a silent pause for the duration of what ever V says (more so if the spoken lines are something else, longer, than what the options give off) and perhaps some expressional hand waving too (Of course that would look "stoopid"), so CDPR would need to cut those silent parts and other possible stuff out from all the dialog and tie it to the "V-VO Off" setting in the options.

I would support that toggle (among many others that I think should be there), but I'm not sure if it's all that simple in the end, nor that it will actually happen.

And by the way, this text editor is bonkers right now. Italics and underlines seem to have a will of their own.
 
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