Why Hyperthin is bad

[InkognitoXI]

Regardless what it's added for, fact is, it still thins 1 card from your deck. It still improves your chances of drawing what you need to be higher in the rounds after you use the decree.
Decree imo is 1 of the best cards in the game currently for its cost. 10prov, you can pull stuff that cost more, apply combos, consistency and 1 card thin. It's only limitation is that it pulls a unit.


On the contrary, I was giving an example of a deck that still uses the witchers regardless of their high provision cost.

Name me a second.
I am not aware of any other deck that is willing to put that awful package in their deck and Mourntart Eredin only does because they ran out of cards to fill multiple graveyard spots in one move and had either this or nothing as an option.
NG Witchers does not count because NG witchers is niche at beast and the Trio version is honestly the worst version of it.

 

[ardeathwinggwent]

Name me a second.
I am not aware of any other deck that is willing to put that awful package in their deck and Mourntart Eredin only does because they ran out of cards to fill multiple graveyard spots in one move and had either this or nothing as an option.
NG Witchers does not count because NG witchers is niche at beast and the Trio version is honestly the worst version of it.

If NG did not have Vigo, they would probably use the witchers. I was trying to explain that if you bring the current thinning options to the witcher trio cost level, they will also be back in the game in some decks.
Nerfing in this scenario is not killing the cards, because thinning will still be valuable just for the sake of thinning.

 

[Pacifixer]

I don't think thining to 0 is a problem.
The problem is NG, especially that thining package and the absurd amount of points it can dish out. All those thining cards have great sinergy and can reliably secure a round while preparing for strong R3.
NG hyperthin isn't as overpowered as it seems to be, but it is for sure very annoying to face. It's difficult to identify, since its core cards can be played in any deck and are by far the best NG haves.

 

[InkognitoXI]

If NG did not have Vigo, they would probably use the witchers. I was trying to explain that if you bring the current thinning options to the witcher trio cost level, they will also be back in the game in some decks.
Nerfing in this scenario is not killing the cards, because thinning will still be valuable just for the sake of thinning.

No, in that case the spot would be filled with non-thinning cards, because there is a minimum of actual tempo and point/provision ratio one is willing accept and in the current game the "silver witchers" are below the tempo of a 4-provision card.
Thinning for the sake of thinning is worth it if you thin the low end of your provisions and/or have an actuall incentive (like Hyperthin).
Thinning 3 8 provision cards is horrendous, you want to thin to get your high provision cards, not to get rid of them.
"Silver Witchers" are 3 cards with 24 combined provision cost, as a comparison, Portal is 21 provisions, more tempo and getting out 2 engines at once.
Portal is not played to thin, Portal is played because of its power (hence people keep it for round 3).

 

[4RM3D]

Regardless what it's added for, fact is, it still thins 1 card from your deck. It still improves your chances of drawing what you need to be higher in the rounds after you use the decree.

That's a moot point because you (usually) want to use Royal Decree to get an expensive card from your deck, not cheap fodder in order to draw a better card later. Royal Decree is consistency foremost, but one distinction does need to be made (read on)...

Portal is not played to thin, Portal is played because of its power (hence people keep it for round 3).

This whole discussion is getting out of hand because people are comparing the same kind of cards in different scenarios. Let me explain the situation.

There are basically four usages for tutors, which can be used in conjunction with each other (not being mutually exclusive):
1) Tempo
2) Consistency
3) Thinning
4) Filtering

1) Tempo
Only applies to tutors with a body (including Portal and CotF). Put an extra unit on the board with extra points. Sometimes these points matter, but usually tutors are not used for tempo, with the exception of Portal

2) Consistency
Royal Decree being the prime example, when you need a specific card, you double the chances of drawing it. While Royal Decree also thins, it's usually not the primary reason because you play an expensive card rather than fodder. Incidentally, Royal Decree itself is not played for tempo, but the unit it summons can be. I wanted to make this distinction clear.

3) Thinning
Thinning is only needed if you want to draw into your combo in a later round and that, in turn, is only necessary if the said combo requires it, which only applies to (NG) Hyper-thin, to enable the Tibor + Vilgefortz package.

4) Filtering
This is the one most players forget about. Filtering is dropping cheap cards in early rounds in order to have a better chance to get expansive cards later. It's different from normal thinning because you aren't doing it for the sake of thinning, like with NG Hyper-thin.

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When you ask what role does Portal play? I'll say that it depends on the deck it's being used in. For NG Hyper-thin, it's about all four of the above. However, with Calanthe it's mostly used for tempo. Filtering is only a secondary reason. And, when you look at SY (mostly Dijkstra), Portal is used for consistency on top of the tempo.

 

[Anima_13]

as a totally new player I am somewhat surprised about this thread. I wonder what do I have to expect in future games.

A, If a mechanism has counters (and the OP admits this though not discussing them further) why is the mechanism bad? If the conters are present in the majority of factions the playerbase can adept and carry those solutions to punish the overusage .
B, If the mechanism lacks counters or they are not sufficient its not the mechanisms issue but of the release that didnt introduced enough solutions

Tempo/excess field presence can be countered with cardsteal, removals, summoning punishment, aoe, punishment of excess field presence[eg boost when more enemy units present] ect. (though tempo sort of compete with some of those)

Filtering/thinning can be balanced out with direct deck manipulation and simply by outplay through holding your good options to yourself and not waste them on the early small fry.

Which is the case here? Are the options to counter not sufficient? OR do we talk about only about a few extreme cases one has to look into?

And if its really bad then
C, one could eg limit the number of summons on a turn or give summoned units an extra buff that weakens them

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

There are certainly enough counters, but some players aparently dont like the idea that a faction is capable of playing 7 cards a single turn, and the amount of tempo you achieve through this play. Some players argue that it is broken, despite the fact that the sucess of this type of decks is moderate, given the availability of counters.
Tempo swings can be argued to be necesarry in decks that rely on combos, or control. As otherwise, you are likely to get bled (when playing combos) or are not able to bleed (when playing control), diminishing your overall win-rate with a certain deck, and thus making it unplayable.

 

[4RM3D]

If a mechanism has counters (and the OP admits this though not discussing them further) why is the mechanism bad?

It's not always about the number of possible counters, but what happens when you cannot stop the combo. Northern Realms used to have a card that basically read: If this unit isn't locked or removed before the end of the round, the opponent loses the game. Sure, there is plenty of time to deal with it, but you shouldn't be forced to deal with it. Therein lies the important distinction.

The reason why hyper-thin is annoying is because it plays in a way it should not be able to. More so, it's boring as hell and not fun to play with or against.

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

Boring or not Hyperthin is a unique deck that deserves its spot as a playable archtype.

 

[4RM3D]

Boring or not Hyperthin is a unique deck that deserves its spot as a playable archtype.

Not with the tools it has available now. While you'll need a commitment to make hyper-thin work, it's still too easy to achieve. Ironically, the old hyper-thin in Skellige would actually have been fine, if it wasn't nerfed into kingdom come. It's also part psychological, as I don't think hyper-thin should be a NG archetype or, at the very least, not NG exclusive. Yeah, other factions can achieve the same thinning, but not with the same strength and ease.

 

[Pacifixer]

If this unit isn't locked or removed before the end of the round, the opponent loses the game.

Which card do you mean??? Old Siege tower???

 

[ardeathwinggwent]

There are certainly enough counters, but some players apparently dont like the idea that a faction is capable of playing 7 cards a single turn, and the amount of tempo you achieve through this play. Some players argue that it is broken, despite the fact that the success of this type of decks is moderate, given the availability of counters.
Tempo swings can be argued to be necessary in decks that rely on combos, or control. As otherwise, you are likely to get bled (when playing combos) or are not able to bleed (when playing control), diminishing your overall win-rate with a certain deck, and thus making it unplayable.

Every single player in the Challenger 5 had a variation of the hyperthin deck and you call this 'moderate success'... At the same time whole factions barely existed there (MO/SK).
Your bar is too high. Yes, hyperthin is not top of the top in the current meta. It is far above the average though. And it is annoying as hell. Most people here argue that huge thinning sprees are bad for the game, not that NG is the only valid example, it's just prime offender at the moment.
Let's talk with facts. Look at the challenger decks, then look at last month's most played leaders (ardal+hyperthin being one of the top with usurper if I'm not mistaken).

 

[InkognitoXI]

Every single player in the Challenger 5 had a variation of the hyperthin deck and you call this 'moderate success'... At the same time whole factions barely existed there (MO/SK).
Your bar is too high. Yes, nyperthin is not top of the top in the current meta. It is far above the average though. And it is annoying as hell. Most people here argue that huge thinning sprees are bad for the game, not that NG is the only valid example, it's just prime offender at the moment.
Let's talk with facts. Look at the challenger decks, then look at last month's most played leaders (ardal+hyperthin being one of the top with usurper if I'm not mistaken).

NG was the best deck in the best of the worst factions they had to run.
Of course, in case you have to run a deck for the worst faction in your lineup, you play the deck that is favored against the other picks for the worst faction they have to play.
NR, SY and ST were the good factions and since they had to pick 4 they had to pick 1 from MO, SK or NG.
Look, Fran being the instant ban in any sensible pick is a whole different issue, however saying Hyperthin was the most successful or one of the more successful decks is not exactly true.

 

[4RM3D]

Which card do you mean??? Old Siege tower???

The old "you pass, you lose" cheese? Nah, it would fit the description, but I was talking about Foltest's Pride (and Kiyan).

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

While we are at it, I dont know why this thread purely targets NG, while the fact remains that TA ranks Calanthes tempo portal + Roach + Hen Gaidth sword a notch higher than Hyperthin NG.
And we shouldnt start nerfing neutral cards like portal as it might kill off other engines decks, that already struggle against control, although funny enough, control decks play portal too. Looks perfectly balanced in my opinion.

 

[ardeathwinggwent]

While we are at it, I dont know why this thread purely targets NG, while the fact remains that TA ranks Calanthes tempo portal + Roach + Hen Gaidth sword a notch higher than Hyperthin NG.
And we shouldnt start nerfing neutral cards like portal as it might kill off other engines decks, that already struggle against control, although funny enough, control decks play portal too. Looks perfectly balanced in my opinion.

Talk whatever you want bro, but you won't change the fact that the majority of the community feel appalled by what NG currently is.
Personally I'm disgusted from the current balance and meta archetypes, most of which NG. Anyone who plays it should be ashamed for abusing what obviously was not the initial thought of CDPR of how thinning should work; CDPR should also be ashamed of what they have done to the game and the longer it takes them to fix the more players they will lose.

 

[hachri80]

That sounds pretty harsh . I honestly don't dislike the current Meta and think it is a lot better than the last one. To me the thinning deck of NG just feels worse than other versions but maybe it is connected to the overall state that NG is in. The Empire doesn't have much to offer besides Hyperthin and that feels terrible. This faction just has so many single use cards that don't fit in any decktypes but it will hopefully get better with the extension.

 

[InkognitoXI]

That sounds pretty harsh . I honestly don't dislike the current Meta and think it is a lot better than the last one.
[...]

Remove Fran (and potentially just ST in general) and I am willing to say we had quite a good format.

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

majority of the community feel appalled by what NG currently is.

Well, they have 3 viable decks, hyperthin, control, and some soldier variation with Daerlan solder package with vremde and Vrygheff + Assimilate.
Assimilate is the only semi-viable deck that relies on bronze package.
NG soldiers could definitely use a hand, and i think with next patch, we might actually see some improvement.

 

[BoYoDes]

Talk whatever you want bro, but you won't change the fact that the majority of the community feel appalled by what NG currently is...

You mean that the faction was stripped down from all of its mechanics and by a chance left with only two sort of viable ones?

I say give me more tools to make Hyperthin more unpredictable, give me more tools to make Tactics less control/removal friendly (I'm really SICK of the amount of removal in this game still), more tools to make Soldiers more efficient, more tools to make deck shenanigans like Mill or fill your deck with crap more efficient.

This game (not faction) has still a long way to go.