Why I think HC is way way better than current Gwent

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Why do you think they went underwater for 6 months, investing a huge amount of money (and gaining less due to the 6 months drought) if the game was working properly for them? It didn't, simply as that.

Short answer, mistakes were made. Mistakes, as in plural. Screw up enough times and it hits a point where it's more economical to scrap it, go back to the drawing board and start over.

Please do not confuse the provision system with 2 rows, 2 bronze copies, a hand limit, CA spies, RNG in general, etc. Adding more granularity to the card value vs card cost to "open up design space" is fine. Cutting out areas to simplify is not the same. They did not absolutely need to make the other changes for Gwent to work. In the short or long term.

4) Ah. I'm playing since November 2016, closed beta. When Morkvarg still weakened itself by 2 instead of half and i had a blast spamming 30+ power morkvarg to carryover on round 2 and 3. What about you?

Two solutions come to mind. Change Morkvarg (they did) or remove it completely. The design approach has slowly shifted away from the former toward the latter over the life time of the game. HC is a perfect representation of that shift.
 
Honestly the current provision system does spell the death of archetypes like 40 card Foltest and erode gold identity even further. Right now it's starting to feel like bronzes are better than golds just because you can have more of them in your deck and the major differentiator of card power is provision cost, not gold or bronze. It's even possible to create decks consisting of 25 gold cards and 0 bronzes now, although it won't be a particularly good deck.

Now, you said that mistakes were made and that they needed to scrap it and start over, but Homecoming's aggressive hammering down of rows, bronze limits, card interactions, deck consistency, card advantage, and combos is a major case of attempting to fix Midwinter with the exact same thinking that caused Midwinter, only in an even more extreme fashion. And even beyond that we have pointless new problems like with the UI how it can be hard to distinguish between a neutral card and a faction card or a gold card and a bronze card or how the new hand UI makes it harder to tell which cards you have, especially during your opponent's turn, or how you can no longer see the number of cards left in your library and so forth. And it does not speak well of the designers at all that they would operate in such a way, nor does it speak well of them that they broke their promises about Homecoming being a return to Gwent's roots while in reality deviating considerably further or how they would reduce RNG only to introduce ridiculous nonsense like random deck reveal and Gascon.

It was also a simple option to just roll back Midwinter and make more modest updates on top of that. They could also have maintained an actual dialogue with the community and run more PTRs instead of doing their own thing in the dark for so long and then when the community overwhelmingly disapproves of the few changes that did go public, reject their feedback while cheerfully telling them how much better it will be than they think (it wasn't). The only good thing here is that we at least had a public test before Homecoming came out, but I'm concerned it will be too little too late and that Gwent as we know it will be dead and gone in two brief weeks.
 
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Sadly i feel the same the PTR ruined my hope for HC all of my fave decks get deleted and overall diversity is going down.
The RNG stay inside of the game while many people are unhappy about that.

I loved the old darker look before midwinter and the different card arts for the same cards.
Instead just giving us a option for changing the ui to a dark version or a bright version in the settings, they force a complete new ui on us.

I understand they have there ideas fpr it and they also want the best for gwent and they di there best i am sure ... but maybe just asking us and talking with us ober it instead of changing important parts that we love behind our backs.

i know the last years it was just a Beta ... but a beta game i loved ... and now its get deleted ... maybe its just me because i lose all my fave decks ( or most of them) but i realy wish i could stay with the old gwent.
 
Short answer, mistakes were made. Mistakes, as in plural. Screw up enough times and it hits a point where it's more economical to scrap it, go back to the drawing board and start over.

Please do not confuse the provision system with 2 rows, 2 bronze copies, a hand limit, CA spies, RNG in general, etc. Adding more granularity to the card value vs card cost to "open up design space" is fine. Cutting out areas to simplify is not the same. They did not absolutely need to make the other changes for Gwent to work. In the short or long term.



Two solutions come to mind. Change Morkvarg (they did) or remove it completely. The design approach has slowly shifted away from the former toward the latter over the life time of the game. HC is a perfect representation of that shift.
I've already explained plenty why those changes were needed. You can find it in the last page.
And i must repeat myself, it doesn't matter if you like the hyper consistent gwent we have now, because that tend to become stale quickly since every game is basically the same with the same game plan same cards sequencies, etc...

There is a reason why the most successful card games all have a degree of variety and draw rng.
 
I've already explained plenty why those changes were needed. You can find it in the last page.
And i must repeat myself, it doesn't matter if you like the hyper consistent gwent we have now, because that tend to become stale quickly since every game is basically the same with the same game plan same cards sequencies, etc...

There is a reason why the most successful card games all have a degree of variety and draw rng.

Your previous post covered the provision system and 2 bronze copies. Neither of these were an absolute requirement to "fix" the problem they were intended to address.

All the provision system does is give more balance room for card value vs card cost. Instead of adding a bronze card and giving it a value range of A to B, corresponding to the bronze tier, they can fine tune each and every bronze card. Yes, this is an improvement. I do not recall anyone taking issue with the provision system. So pointing to it as a defense for the other changes is... pointless.

Yes, the bronze copy change raised the RNG factor. It has a number of other potential benefits as well. What isn't true is to claim this is the only way to add RNG for the purposes of achieving more variety. To give one example, how about stop adding tutors once you reach a certain point (watch they'll make the same mistake with orders... just watch)?

Adding RNG directly to cards, where the ability could do X or Y with no control from the player is another animal entirely. At least when the range of outcomes runs between "win the game" to "completely fucked". This is why cards where you need to carry and draw a very specific counter to avoid getting the "completely fucked" result are classified as oppressive. Adding a leader with an ability to completely neutralize other leaders is the perfect example. This kind of stuff has no place when the game is advertised as "skill based". Such mechanics don't lead to more variety in the cards getting played. They lead to cards getting over-represented, under-represented and game play situations where it's "draw or pull this or else".

In defense of CDPR... I'll just say it... HC looked rushed. So it's still a WIP :).

Bear in mind, nothing above has anything to do with the two vs three rows, hand limit, spies, coin-flip, etc. There were other ways to address all of the above. So yeah, I have trouble agreeing when you claim all of the HC changes needed to happen.
 
I've already explained plenty why those changes were needed. You can find it in the last page.
And i must repeat myself, it doesn't matter if you like the hyper consistent gwent we have now, because that tend to become stale quickly since every game is basically the same with the same game plan same cards sequencies, etc...

There is a reason why the most successful card games all have a degree of variety and draw rng.

And there is a reason, why i dont play this games as well. And this HC-Update will get stale as quickly as the other gwnet you mentioned. It seems, you just want a change because of the change. The content of the update doesnt matter for you. If you like other games so bad, why are you still here? It seems, other games would fit your style much more.
 
Easy to say that sitting behind a computer while pretty much the only big card update old Gwent got turned the game into an absolute mess (The bi-monthly 20 card updates don't count, those are not nearly enough). :) You could argue that if this and that wouldn't be simplified than it wouldn't happen but sooner of later after multiple expansions we would hit a messy stage anyway. There's a reason why years and years worth of established PvP CCG systems pretty much have one knob in common, the mana system. Without a knob like this, old Gwent was severely restricted in terms of design space and balance. When you add a knob similar to that, the entire old system falls apart and you need a rework.
I merely copied and pasted the definition of "powercreep." Since powercreep means by definition that an update that introduced has powerful units making old units underpowered. Thus, if such update isn't instigated, powercreep will not happen. By definition that is, unless you mean "powercreep" with a connotation that's beyond what the definition states.

I agree with you like I said above multiple times that the winter update has made a big mess. And I also agree that the current Gwent has fundamental problems like I have posted in other threads multiple times criticizing it. What I said above are replies specifically designed to previous posts and not by any means addressing the problems in the current Gwent. The topic in question was inconsistency vs consistency/redundancy. in that case, it is easy to tweak and implement changes while introducing a few cards every month to keep the game fresh and inconsistent since that shifts meta as well as strategies. And the question to whether the "current gwent" is beyond salvation is subject to opinions.

But since you mentioned it, is the only solution to fix the fundamental problems is to strip off everything that we know of what Gwent has been? Not to mention, the PTR version inherited some of the fundamental problems I've seen in the current Gwent. Also, how does the PTR version open up more design space? And balance? Perhaps HC is easier to balance since the majority of cards is to do a little damage or a little boost. So for the design space and balance, the solution is to dumb down the cards?
 
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And there is a reason, why i dont play this games as well. And this HC-Update will get stale as quickly as the other gwnet you mentioned. It seems, you just want a change because of the change. The content of the update doesnt matter for you. If you like other games so bad, why are you still here? It seems, other games would fit your style much more.
The fact is that previous gwent metas became stale fast. You can't deny reality.

Then we have HC, that still have to be launched, hence you have no proof whatsover that it will become stale. It may, it may not. I don't know and the same goes for you. What we know is that current gwent suffer from that problem.
 
The fact is that previous gwent metas became stale fast. You can't deny reality.

Then we have HC, that still have to be launched, hence you have no proof whatsover that it will become stale. It may, it may not. I don't know and the same goes for you. What we know is that current gwent suffer from that problem.

I never, ever diened, that present gwent is stale, i didnt play it for about 4-5 months about this reason. I get my fun out of low level plays, because there i can "compete" against different decks.
And again, you dont know either but are the one who makes assumptions of the future, of how it is need, how it will be good. I am the one, who only critizise the stuff i already know in contrast to you who just expect the best, whatever that may be.

If i compare current gwent against HC, i see a lot more potenial in current gwent. Thats all. You (general speaking, not you as a person) can still mess up with both versions, thats right. But i think it is much easier for HC Gwent.

And for fiture expansion, CDRed could have implement each of the novalties step by step, that would be at least 5-10 expansions so far and they could have gain teh experience out of it.
 
I never, ever diened, that present gwent is stale, i didnt play it for about 4-5 months about this reason. I get my fun out of low level plays, because there i can "compete" against different decks.
And again, you dont know either but are the one who makes assumptions of the future, of how it is need, how it will be good. I am the one, who only critizise the stuff i already know in contrast to you who just expect the best, whatever that may be.

If i compare current gwent against HC, i see a lot more potenial in current gwent. Thats all. You (general speaking, not you as a person) can still mess up with both versions, thats right. But i think it is much easier for HC Gwent.

And for fiture expansion, CDRed could have implement each of the novalties step by step, that would be at least 5-10 expansions so far and they could have gain teh experience out of it.
If the current gwent gets stale fast (and it does), it goes without saying that a change is needed.
if they can't release an expansion of 150ish cards (like midwinter) without powercreeping the current bronze powerlevel, it goes without saying that a change is needed.
I don't know how well HC gwent will go, what i know is that a big change was needed to address those and many other concerns/issues about the future of this game. I know this and the devs know this.
 
if its just about Gwent getting stale then balancing would be enough.
Thats what all other card games do too.
Most of them have mutch more cards and can try some other tricks like season cards but gwent isnt made for that.
 
I don't know how well HC gwent will go, what i know is that a big change was needed to address those and many other concerns/issues about the future of this game. I know this and the devs know this.
Oh here were are at the same page. A Change was needed indeed. Which doesnt mean this change right now is good.
 
The fact is that previous gwent metas became stale fast. You can't deny reality.

Then we have HC, that still have to be launched, hence you have no proof whatsover that it will become stale. It may, it may not. I don't know and the same goes for you. What we know is that current gwent suffer from that problem.
That's largely because of a follow-the-leader and flavor-of-the-month mentality, though. I've seen it happen in other games too. In Path of Exile when they came up with fork support gems (they made the projectile-shooting skill gem they support spawn 2 projectiles when a projectile hits something instead of expiring, but the projectiles do less damage and forked projectiles cannot fork again), everyone immediately made spark (shoots 3 randomly wandering projectiles that can bounce off walls)+fork builds (nicknamed spork builds) and thought it was the best thing ever. It was popular meta and flavor of the month to an insane degree that people became extremely tired of seeing it. But the funny thing is that there were builds that made 100% piercing sparks (meaning when the projectiles hit things they just keep going through them, no limit until the projectile naturally expires) that existed long before spork and those builds were overall much higher damage (not only did they not take a damage penalty like fork does, but they could hit more enemies and it wasn't even necessary to spend a support gem slot to make it fork or pierce and so with that extra support gem slot they could spend it on a damage-boosting support gem instead) and there were plenty of other highly potent builds as well. The point I'm making is that you can't really solve stale metas where a ridiculous amount of people play the same way through a balancing act or by attempting to punish people for playing meta. Even fresh content can only do so much. You're fighting against herd mentality here. Everyone else is doing it so they start to do it too. Metas will turn stale all over again quickly. Unless the game is so overbalanced it hardly matters what you're playing, you're going to see people copycat anything that looks good to them. And if you do overbalance the game like that every deck and game will likely feel the same, people will get bored, and no one will want to play it. There's a certain irony in attempting to encourage deck diversity at the price of devaluing innovation. The destruction of Gwent's identity and loss of deck archetypes is a major complaint about Homecoming here.

And the other point I was making is that just because the overwhelming majority of people are playing the same decks doesn't mean there aren't any competitive decks outside the popular meta. The existence of a meta doesn't obligate you to follow it. It's possible to make your own competitive decks if you want, and I personally enjoy doing that. Again, it's one of my complaints about Homecoming: I feel like there's just less potential to explore in HC deckbuilding. Tactical dimensions are reduced, card synergies are reduced, deck consistency is crippled, a lot of archetypes have been buried, and overall I'm left with a feeling of staleness about the offerings.
 
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If it better than current gwent? Probably. I left gwent after HC announcement. Game was locked in a vicious cycle of powercreep, and i didnt really bother to follow it. My point is - Gwent wasnt looking good.
Taken by itself, reduced consistency might not be all that bad. Sure, i loved how consistent you could render your decks in old Gwent, minimizing the draw RNG, but its not that much worse now. With 16 cards you're bound to draw, you can go 21-22/25 most games if you really want to. I didnt really like turn for 2 bronzes that much, but it might be ok after all.
I dont mind if i have to pay for my consistency, it is how it should be.

However, HC PTR came with several game-winning RNG effects and several extremely poorly designed cards. Its going to be fresh for sure, but is it something i'd want to play for more than a week? Lets just say i hope alot of stuff on PTR we've seen were WIP placeholders.
 
The fact is that previous gwent metas became stale fast. You can't deny reality.

Then we have HC, that still have to be launched, hence you have no proof whatsover that it will become stale. It may, it may not. I don't know and the same goes for you. What we know is that current gwent suffer from that problem.
And homecoming became stale after 20 hours. Cards need some serious redesigns so I can actually feel inspired to build some decks. I never thought I'd be board in the deck builder but soon realized card effects were super lame. Im hoping this is because the game was rushed so they just threw any random effects they could on cards. If this isn't the case then new card designers need hired as the community thinks of way cooler abilities.
 
And homecoming became stale after 20 hours. Cards need some serious redesigns so I can actually feel inspired to build some decks. I never thought I'd be board in the deck builder but soon realized card effects were super lame. Im hoping this is because the game was rushed so they just threw any random effects they could on cards. If this isn't the case then new card designers need hired as the community thinks of way cooler abilities.
A game in the experimental phase cannot be stale by definition. A game become stale when the meta (especially at high level ranked play) is solved.
You simply got bored of it (or didn't give it enough chance). No probs, probably it's not the game for you then.
 
At least no more 12point braindead halfelfs and 15point oficers, these bronzes give me headaches.
 
A game in the experimental phase cannot be stale by definition. A game become stale when the meta (especially at high level ranked play) is solved.
You simply got bored of it (or didn't give it enough chance). No probs, probably it's not the game for you then.
It was almost unplayable. Gwent is for me, homecoming I'm not sure, I'm hoping more tweaking goes into it before release
 
There's like... 50/50 valid and invalid complaints here.

Maybe we could get a CDPR response to address some of your concerns? Seems like there's a lot of opinions being thrown around but everyone too divided to agree on enough to move on from this lol.

Opinion: from someone who's been playing card games for over 21 years this game is fine and will probably be fine after the update.

Contraire to community opinion my favorite part about this game is it's consistency... there is enough variance in the game to feel healthy.

Curent gwent problems are braindead tutors poet,tk,hym,cahir,piratecaptain and braindead pointspam bronzes.
Easy to fix


This... I only agree with the "braindead pointspams" *mildly* and even then, this seems like a minimal complaint.

Also whoever said this game is beyond Salvation has probably never played any of the last 6 years of physical card games... you wanna see bad step in to my office and I'll show you some BAD metas lol.

I've been through so many games that have outright died in 6 months or a year that I can firmly say this game is fine.
 
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