Why missing Cinematic/3rd person Cutscenes is THE biggest flaw

[Wenceslaus]

To show more of the hands and pistol would mean that Vs arms are bent or short rather than lower on the body right?
What do you mean about collision trajectory? That the viewpoint needs to be closer to the center of the body to calculate the area of Vs body around it?

To my knowledgee, to evade paralax effect player often shoot from the camera rather than the gun.
But that mean that bullet won't colide with obstacle even it should (only head is peaking). This is partially compensated by lowering the camera.

In CP2077 arms are be also glued to camera so you see the reloading, fire... etc. animation always from exactly the same perspective. And for smooth movement, to eliminated headbobing.
So while legs are affected by terrain and animations, the upper body is floating with the camera. This may cause the problem you mentioned when player is looking down.

 

[Rollins6020]

Mmm...have to disagree with that statement.

'Best' is a very subjective thing. It is going to be down to how people perceive things on an individual level and what they are personally looking for in their experience.

From my own personal perspective, I prefer FP driving, because it maintains that integrated immersion that the rest of the game is geared towards. Yes, it's more tricky and takes longer to get comfortable with the mechanics. But, for me, once achieved, that feels more satisfying and rewarding in terms of my personal immersion within the game world. A lot of that motivation comes from a strong desire to roleplay and not gameplay. But it's a personal choice.

Others will feel that FP driving (which needs some tweaking 'visually' by default) is a lot of effort compared with TP driving, and not something they are interested in, or in which they want to invest time. I get that. It depends what you're looking for in your experience. At least CDPR did give us options there, and that's good.

But there's no global 'better' overall. Just the 'better' you choose.

Please note that I put best in quotations.

When I say "best" I'm not saying it's the only way to drive and it's the way that everyone should drive, I'm implying that by and large, people will drive better (defined as: more controlled and hitting less things) when they are in third person than when in 1st. For example, if you have a rear camera in your car or have ever driven a car with a rear camera, you're experiencing a real life 3rd person moment when driving, and that will make you a "better" driver (at least backing up into a tight space will be better). I grew up without a rear camera and sure, I can backup just fine without one but once it became a pretty standard feature, I became a better driver because of it.

Ultimately, If you're driving in 1st person then you may feel like you're having a "better" more immersive experience, which I totally agree with, which was why I said that even I drive 1st person when I want to RP, because 1st person is better than that type of experience. If you drive in 3rd, you're likely going to hit less people/cars/objects and be able to drive at a faster rate of speed with less issues than if you were doing all that in 1st.

 

[OnyxCore]

Please note that I put best in quotations.

When I say "best" I'm not saying it's the only way to drive and it's the way that everyone should drive, I'm implying that by and large, people will drive better (defined as: more controlled and hitting less things) when they are in third person than when in 1st. For example, if you have a rear camera in your car or have ever driven a car with a rear camera, you're experiencing a real life 3rd person moment when driving, and that will make you a "better" driver (at least backing up into a tight space will be better). I grew up without a rear camera and sure, I can backup just fine without one but once it became a pretty standard feature, I became a better driver because of it.

Ultimately, If you're driving in 1st person then you may feel like you're having a "better" more immersive experience, which I totally agree with, which was why I said that even I drive 1st person when I want to RP, because 1st person is better than that type of experience. If you drive in 3rd, you're likely going to hit less people/cars/objects and be able to drive at a faster rate of speed with less issues than if you were doing all that in 1st.

That's fine. I can fully understand why people will use TP. It was just that, from my own personal perspective, I felt that your comment came over as a tad dismissive of the FP mode, and I was simply trying to emphasise the fact that some actually prefer it to TP, for all it's quirkiness.

For my own part, I try to treat the driving the same as IRL and stick to 'normal' speeds. But that's just me being boring, I guess.

 

[CS554]

That's fine. I can fully understand why people will use TP. It was just that, from my own personal perspective, I felt that your comment came over as a tad dismissive of the FP mode, and I was simply trying to emphasise the fact that some actually prefer it to TP, for all it's quirkiness.

For my own part, I try to treat the driving the same as IRL and stick to 'normal' speeds. But that's just me being boring, I guess.

Advantages for driving from 3rd person can be summed up to: better spatial awareness.

I prefer 1st person myself and on Xbox One X one very clear compromise is field of view that is a tad narrow. What comes to effect to spatial awareness, it can be compensated by using right stick while cornering. I suspect main reason for narrow FOV is console performance. To make matters worse, gaming industry is in bottleneck situation, even in racing games, where graphical fidelity goes up but at the same time comes so taxing that very few games have car mirrors with practical value, CP 2077 doesn't have working car mirrors at all.

Night City is dynamic environment with traffic, but other than that it comes down to visual ques and CP 2077 does very well on that department for reasons I don't really know. Car body roll, suspension, vibrations player can notice if looking corners of windshield in V's Hella for example.

While spatial awareness in dynamic environments has obvious benefits, that can lead to less crashes, I'm not so sure if that's good objective measurement. Same result can be achieved by learning static elements, roads, curve types and most importantly, limits of car. What could be said objectively, better spatial awareness in 3rd person leads to lower learning curve than 1st person.

In CP 2077 I can't think of but one mission where difference between 1st and 3rd person perspective really matters. Beginning of the Sinnerman where V drives clients Thorton Mackinaw and has to keep up with Chevillon Emperor carrying Sinnerman. When driving from 1st person traffic that is scripted to happen during chase isn't as obvious as in 3rd person where it looks like watching "making of chase scene for a movie". Interestingly, I could get within 35 meters distance to Chevillon in game ver. 1.23 regardless if I used 1st or 3rd person perspective and 40-45 meters with game ver 1.3. Didn't put in that much effort into that though, as catching Chevillon won't achieve anything and shouldn't be possible AFAIK.

Sinnerman is makes pretty good example of tradeoff IMO. First person is way better experience regarding suspension of disbelief as scripting isn't that striking, while 3rd person may make it easier to complete the chase section for players who aren't that familiar with car physics and have more time to react to scripted events via better spatial awareness.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

To make matters worse, gaming industry is in bottleneck situation, even in racing games, where graphical fidelity goes up but at the same time comes so taxing that very few games have car mirrors with practical value, CP 2077 doesn't have working car mirrors at all.

I don't know if you are a little familiar with the world of racing, but the first thing I was taught (in bike at least), is to never pay attention to that passing behind you (never turn your head, never). This is the role of "panelists" (I don't know the name in english). But hey I digress a little bit

 

[OnyxCore]

Advantages for driving from 3rd person can be summed up to: better spatial awareness.

I prefer 1st person myself and on Xbox One X one very clear compromise is field of view that is a tad narrow. What comes to effect to spatial awareness, it can be compensated by using right stick while cornering. I suspect main reason for narrow FOV is console performance. To make matters worse, gaming industry is in bottleneck situation, even in racing games, where graphical fidelity goes up but at the same time comes so taxing that very few games have car mirrors with practical value, CP 2077 doesn't have working car mirrors at all.

Night City is dynamic environment with traffic, but other than that it comes down to visual ques and CP 2077 does very well on that department for reasons I don't really know. Car body roll, suspension, vibrations player can notice if looking corners of windshield in V's Hella for example.

While spatial awareness in dynamic environments has obvious benefits, that can lead to less crashes, I'm not so sure if that's good objective measurement. Same result can be achieved by learning static elements, roads, curve types and most importantly, limits of car. What could be said objectively, better spatial awareness in 3rd person leads to lower learning curve than 1st person.

In CP 2077 I can't think of but one mission where difference between 1st and 3rd person perspective really matters. Beginning of the Sinnerman where V drives clients Thorton Mackinaw and has to keep up with Chevillon Emperor carrying Sinnerman. When driving from 1st person traffic that is scripted to happen during chase isn't as obvious as in 3rd person where it looks like watching "making of chase scene for a movie". Interestingly, I could get within 35 meters distance to Chevillon in game ver. 1.23 regardless if I used 1st or 3rd person perspective and 40-45 meters with game ver 1.3. Didn't put in that much effort into that though, as catching Chevillon won't achieve anything and shouldn't be possible AFAIK.

Sinnerman is makes pretty good example of tradeoff IMO. First person is way better experience regarding suspension of disbelief as scripting isn't that striking, while 3rd person may make it easier to complete the chase section for players who aren't that familiar with car physics and have more time to react to scripted events via better spatial awareness.

I originally responded as Rollins6020 initial comment came over, to my mind at the time, as tending to bill FP driving as poor cousin twice removed to TP. And I've seen quite a number of comments of similar kind in various places. So, I was simply putting forward a personal point that I felt FP was just as valid as TP, based on what the player preferred, as opposed to the choice purely being based on game mechanics or difficulty.

That interpretation, subsequently, proved not to be the case, as they explained.

However, that comment now seems to have been misinterpreted into 'OnyxCore doesn't understand why TP driving can be a valid choice', which isn't the case. Thanks, but I'm fully aware of the why.

 

[CS554]

I don't know if you are a little familiar with the world of racing, but the first thing I was taught (in bike at least), is to never pay attention to that passing behind you (never turn your head, never). This is the role of "panelists" (I don't know the name in english). But hey I digress a little bit

I'm not entirely sure if I follow and I really never got to bikes. With cars general rule is to look where you are going without turning your head. Now in real life we can do a lot with moving our eyeballs, when we take right turn, we are looking over right fender at some point of procedure as that allows us to see where we are going, after that we look again over the hood as that's where we are going then. It's such banal thing that we don't even think about that. There are scenarios where seeing from the mirror where the rear is going can be useful when cornering and even parking with unfamiliar car which rear track width is wider than front.

How that relates to games and bottleneck I mentioned, is that we always have certain limitations compared to real car in 1st person games, we can compensate that to somewhat by using a right stick to look where we are turning. I don't recall when exactly we started losing really functional mirrors from games but but that's again another thing contributing to spatial awareness. In CP 2077 think of simple thing, a bootleggers turn. Players who play from 3rd person have way more information to perform that, than players using 1st person. So these two things, no real eye tracking and lack of mirrors are contributing to lack of spatial awareness and I don't think this will be solved before VR comes commonplace and it may require ray tracing to enable mirrors again in VR.

It's still worthy debate and there are things CDPR obviously is aware of, we have right stick look while driving because they figured out that is useful feature for players. I don't know what they would make of this dissection but for game and games like CP 2077 where there really isn't competitive aspect, maybe not taking certain things from racing games and where they are heading might be even advantage. Seamless user experience and 1st person driving contribution to that, in say CP 2077 for someone it's that they can be "immersed" into world and their character, then for someone like me, it's taking in the game world, processing game but context might be different; cruising in City Center through my V's eyes there's a world full of people, world with body sculpting and such, everyone can be any color or gender. It's a world past identity politics, yet Night City is dystopian for other reasons, and players like me, it might be about that that we also need to think about society as whole.

So even things that may appear sort of silly, but even cars. That player have cars that they can see out from and driving is intuitive even when spatial awareness isn't all there. These things can contribute to player experience a lot for other than roleplaying reasons.

I originally responded as Rollins6020 initial comment came over, to my mind at the time, as tending to bill FP as second cousin twice removed to TP. And I've seen quite a number of comments of similar kind in various places. So, I was simply putting forward a personal point that I felt FP was just as valid as TP, based on what the player preferred, as opposed to the choice purely being based on game mechanics or difficulty.

That interpretation, subsequently, proved not to be the case, as they explained.

However, that comment now seems to have misinterpreted into 'OnyxCore doesn't understand why TP driving can be a valid choice', which isn't the case. Thanks, but I'm fully aware of the why.

Well, I happened to quote you, but I'm not that much writing to anyone particular but comment on things I see worth pondering and has value for building towards better user experience and sometimes dissecting things can be useful.

I wasn't arguing against you, just bringing some points to debate that might be worth consideration and also kinda tried to create bridge to story with practical example, as we are very far from cinematic cutscenes. I have some hope that someone at CDPR might sometimes check some of topics going on here. Now we are on personal meta. No offence, but I'm really not the kind person for this kind of discussion.

 

[OnyxCore]

Well, I happened to quote you, but I'm not that much writing to anyone particular but comment on things I see worth pondering and has value for building towards better user experience and sometimes dissecting things can be useful.

I wasn't arguing against you, just bringing some points to debate that might be worth consideration and also kinda tried to create bridge to story with practical example, as we are very far from cinematic cutscenes. I have some hope that someone at CDPR might sometimes check some of topics going on here. Now we are on personal meta. No offence, but I'm really not the kind person for this kind of discussion.

Oh, there's no argument from my perspective. I've already stated that it's very much an 'each to their own' issue, and neither is fundamentally better than the other. It's just a discussion that appears to have some misunderstanding of intent, on all sides.

Such is life with text, on occasions, unfortunately.

That said, if you are simply voicing a general point to all, it's probably best not to quote specific users. Otherwise they will, naturally, assume that your post is aimed at them.

Anyway, no harm done here.

 

[Iferrebee]

I prefer the 1st person aspect but understand what you are saying. Maybe a toggle would be best solution