Why the main narrative in the last third of the game is a bad hot mess [major spoilers!!!]

[swordsandroses]

For doing what exactly?

It's more about NOT doing than doing in the beginning.
Actually, throughout the books up until Witcher 3, Geralt's and Yen's efforts have been concentrated on teaching her how to survive and control her abilities. And teaching her lore and knowledge related to her abilities. And building her character to deal with her abilities and everything else that comes with it.
Only with Avallac'h do we realize he's been working on unlocking the full potential of the Elder Blood in order to stop the White Frost.

And still they made her self doubting and insecure...

Hence my comment, Alvin seems like a much stronger character and a better candidate for the job, considering his achievements with basically no information, training or support.
Within his own interpretation of reality, he's been and remained a hero.

I also feel compelled to comment in regards to folklore, all Witcher games and segments of books too, have Polish and Slavic folklore. I don't feel like CDPR owes anyone an explanation for these.
Witcher 1 has a whole chapter dedicated to one folklore tale, are you aware?

Just like English language uses idioms for everything, which make certain books and movies, maybe even games, very strange to non native speakers.

 

[MagnarofThenn]

I also feel compelled to comment in regards to folklore, all Witcher games and segments of books too, have Polish and Slavic folklore. I don't feel like CDPR owes anyone an explanation for these.
Witcher 1 has a whole chapter dedicated to one folklore tale, are you aware?

Just like English language uses idioms for everything, which make certain books and movies, maybe even games, very strange to non native speakers.

Disagree, that they are part of the Polish folklore and the creators are Polish explains the real world motivations for the creator to put these elements into their creative work. It cannot be the in-universe explanation for why they exist in the Witcher universe. They still have to explain these elements within the logic of the created world.

The explanation cannot be "they exist in the Witcher universe because the they exist in Polish folklore". No more than you can explain the One Ring in Middle Earth with "well it exists in the Ring Cycle and Tolkien was influenced by it." That's just the real world explanation. The in-universe explanation is that Sauron forged it. CDPR needed to provide some in-universe explanation for why the Wild Hunt would have dealings with the Crones, because it came out of nowhere and makes no sense as they don't seem to share any common goals.

 

[swordsandroses]

I didn't say anything of the sort you're disagreeing with. All I said was, CDPR does not owe an explanation to people not knowing Polish folklore. That's all.

I did not go into explaining the Crones and their connection to the Wild Hunt. They didn't explain the type of their relationship, but do they really have to? Wild Hunt either bullied them into it, or they simply fit together. What does it matter?

They've presented Eredin as a simple bad guy for the sake of being evil, and Crones just as well, as far as their motivations go. They're like the cannibal Grandpa from Witcher 1, but with powerful magical abilities.

What sort of elaborate story are you expecting here about their connection, considering CDPR didn't think their motivations and deeper character presentation deserve a moment of their time?

It's like complaining about every single drowner in game not having their story and motivation and connection with other drowners presented.

 

[MagnarofThenn]

Yes they have to explain it, because it was central to the plot. It wasn't a side quest where it wasn't important to know, it was part of the main quest storyline. Somehow Ciri knew that the Wild Hunt General would be there in that specific place in that specific time, but no explanation as to why or how she knew this. That's just bad story telling.

 

[Zbotz]

Yes they have to explain it, because it was central to the plot. It wasn't a side quest where it wasn't important to know, it was part of the main quest storyline. Somehow Ciri knew that the Wild Hunt General would be there in that specific place in that specific time, but no explanation as to why or how she knew this. That's just bad story telling.

Geralt: " How'd you learn all this? Imlerith, the sabbath..."
Ciri: " Avallac'h. He told me of those who chase us. Claims knowledge itself can tip the scales."

Geralt: " We stand to find Imlerith here? You sure?"
Ciri: " Avallac'h told me of beings who commune with the Aen Elle elves. They can be found in every part of our world. In Velen, the Crones do this. Apparently, Imlerith came here at Eredin's behest, to order the Crones to keep their eyes open and ears pricked. In case Avallac'h were to seek shelter in his Velen hideout. "
Geralt: " Took the order literally judging by all the ears hanging in the woods."

 

[saladin1701]

Yes they have to explain it, because it was central to the plot. It wasn't a side quest where it wasn't important to know, it was part of the main quest storyline. Somehow Ciri knew that the Wild Hunt General would be there in that specific place in that specific time, but no explanation as to why or how she knew this. That's just bad story telling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-HMru3b3jw

There's a festival every year. Ciri makes weighs the balance of probabilities that Imlerith is there. It's a calculated gamble but one she feels worth taking.

 

[MagnarofThenn]

Geralt: " How'd you learn all this? Imlerith, the sabbath..."
Ciri: " Avallac'h. He told me of those who chase us. Claims knowledge itself can tip the scales."

Geralt: " We stand to find Imlerith here? You sure?"
Ciri: " Avallac'h told me of beings who commune with the Aen Elle elves. They can be found in every part of our world. In Velen, the Crones do this. Apparently, Imlerith came here at Eredin's behest, to order the Crones to keep their eyes open and ears pricked. In case Avallac'h were to seek shelter in his Velen hideout. "
Geralt: " Took the order literally judging by all the ears hanging in the woods."

Show not tell, this is bad writing. There should have been a scene where Avallach tells you this stuff. Or you and Ciri go on a investigative quest and find this stuff out. Both would have been interesting. It's like the kill Radovid mission, look at how many set up quests they did to finally get you to corner him and do the deed. That was a side quest. They should have done at least as much set up for Imlerith given that this is a main story quest. Yet out of nowhwere sudden you know exactly when and where he's going to be.

 

[Alkavana]

Show not tell, this is bad writing. There should have been a scene where Avallach tells you this stuff.

Wait what? Ciri telling us is bad, Avallach telling us is good? Why is that different.

 

[OutgoingHermit]

Honestly, the much bigger problem I had with the whole sabbath setup was that Geralt and Ciri decide not to get Yennefer's help with it, even though they have time to detour all the way to Vizima instead. I realize that Ciri is very impulsive and Geralt makes bad choices, but that definitely sticks out as a spot where the player could have been given a meaningful choice on how to proceed.

 

[saladin1701]

Honestly, the much bigger problem I had with the whole sabbath setup was that Geralt and Ciri decide not to get Yennefer's help with it, even though they have time to detour all the way to Vizima instead. I realize that Ciri is very impulsive and Geralt makes bad choices, but that definitely sticks out as a spot where the player could have been given a meaningful choice on how to proceed.

Why would they write in to the story that they need to seek her help? That requires the player to travel to Novigrad first and then to Bald Mountain, and then back to Novigrad. You'd be repeating steps not in need of being repeated and wouldn't make for interesting game play. Sure, perhaps if you're writing a story for a book where there's no interaction involved and you need to flesh out a chapter a little, you might go that route but it wouldn't make for good game design to waste the player's time. Furthermore, where exactly would she fit in within the confines of gameplay? This isn't a team based game like Bioware games, it's a single third person perspective game. Yennefer couldn't be controlled and there's no precedent for an NPC to be present during a boss fight.

 

[OutgoingHermit]

it wouldn't make for good game design to waste the player's time. Furthermore, where exactly would she fit in within the confines of gameplay? This isn't a team based game like Bioware games, it's a single third person perspective game. Yennefer couldn't be controlled and there's no precedent for an NPC to be present during a boss fight.

I agree that from a gameplay perspective it would need to be handled unobtrusively, but it still stuck me as odd in terms of the story. At the time that I was playing the game, it seemed recklessly dumb for them to run off there like that. In retrospect, the Crones were chumps, but hey, Imlerith has his own thread for people to complain about how hard the fight is.

 

[saladin1701]

I agree that from a gameplay perspective it would need to be handled unobtrusively, but it still stuck me as odd in terms of the story. At the time that I was playing the game, it seemed recklessly dumb for them to run off there like that. In retrospect, the Crones were chumps, but hey, Imlerith has his own thread for people to complain about how hard the fight is.

Personally I found it refreshing that Geralt didn't need to ask Yennefer's permission to do something for a change. If ever someone was under the thumb...

 

[Zbotz]

Honestly, the much bigger problem I had with the whole sabbath setup was that Geralt and Ciri decide not to get Yennefer's help with it, even though they have time to detour all the way to Vizima instead. I realize that Ciri is very impulsive and Geralt makes bad choices, but that definitely sticks out as a spot where the player could have been given a meaningful choice on how to proceed.

Geralt: " I'm going to tell Yen."
Ciri:
Yen: " No way, it's too dangerous you're staying here."
Ciri: " Nicely done Geralt. "

+ 1 on Ciri dies counter

like that?

 

[EndlessSpace]

I agree that from a gameplay perspective it would need to be handled unobtrusively, but it still stuck me as odd in terms of the story. At the time that I was playing the game, it seemed recklessly dumb for them to run off there like that. In retrospect, the Crones were chumps, but hey, Imlerith has his own thread for people to complain about how hard the fight is.

Weren't they in hurry? Ciri wakes Geralt up. The sabbath lasts only 1 night and
If they would have traveled to Novigrad and then to Bald Mountain they migth have missed Imlerith. Yen could have opened a portal, but who knows if the crones would have sensed them. They probably wanted to avoid that.
I don't really see a reason why they should have asked Yennefer to join them, neither story- nor gameplaywise. . They thought they were strong enough to deal with the crones and Imlerith on their own. Furthermore Yennefer had business to do. She needed to find the Lodge sorceresses for their fight against that Wild Hunt boss guy. Erodan or whatever his name was.

 

[OutgoingHermit]

Weren't they in hurry? Ciri wakes Geralt up. The sabbath lasts only 1 night and
If they would have traveled to Novigrad and then to Bald Mountain they migth have missed Imlerith.

They had time to swing by Vizima on the way. I don't think they were that pressed for time.

 

[MagnarofThenn]

Geralt: " I'm going to tell Yen."
Ciri:
Yen: " No way, it's too dangerous you're staying here."
Ciri: " Nicely done Geralt. "

+ 1 on Ciri dies counter

like that?

Actually a choice like that make much more sense in how it affects Ciri and Geralt's relationship then whether you have a snowball fight with her.

 

[ManuW3]

I should have been more perceptive about how needy of support Ciri was. I actually didn't take much notice until I read the ending spoilers post getting my miserable ending. .

 

[Visarean]

I like the idea of Avallach kidnapping Ciri at the end and forcing her to confront the White Frost. His actions seem to be for the greater good but ultimately it all comes down to his selfish desire for self preservation. Imagine having Avallach as the final boss and the true main antagonist, it would have honestly made act three ten times better.

I think it would have been fantastic if it were revealed that Eredin and Avallach were indeed working with each other to obtain Ciri but Avallach ends up betraying Geralt's group and The Wild hunt. It would have made the final words spoken by Eredin mean something.

 

[acowanna]

After playing the ending sequence again I realized the white frost moment isn't as bad as I initially thought. Geralt directly asks Ciri "Why are you doing this? The wild hunt has been defeated". She responds with "But the white frost has not".

It seems reasonable to assume that since the wild hunt has been defeated, her powers seem to have 'awakened', and her self-doubt is finally gone she could make the impulsive choice (which fits her character) to face the white frost directly.

For someone who can travel through time and space and has seen many worlds die, waiting any longer would only just be delaying the inevitable. Its not really possible to live a care-free life when you know the world is going to end, and you are the only one who has a chance to prevent it. To the player her decision seems to come out of nowhere, but for Ciri, she can finally stop 'pretending' and face her destiny.


It would have been nice to get a little more understanding of Avallach's motivations and why exactly the tower is necessary. Perhaps Avallach was hiding the fact that the sunstone can be used to travel to the source of the White frost, but he knew the only way Ciri had a chance to defeat it was with the proper guidance and her own free will. Forcing her vs. convincing her is the main conflict betwen Avallach and Eredin.

 

[saladin1701]

I like the idea of Avallach kidnapping Ciri at the end and forcing her to confront the White Frost. His actions seem to be for the greater good but ultimately it all comes down to his selfish desire for self preservation. Imagine having Avallach as the final boss and the true main antagonist, it would have honestly made act three ten times better.

I think it would have been fantastic if it were revealed that Eredin and Avallach were indeed working with each other to obtain Ciri but Avallach ends up betraying Geralt's group and The Wild hunt. It would have made the final words spoken by Eredin mean something.

He doesn't kidnap her. It's Ciri's decision, he's helping her at her request and the point people are making is that it's never explained exactly how she defeats an Ice Age. As I pointed out before, there are other ways you can have her defeat the White Frost that make a whole lot more sense than this bizarre ending. If they've any sense they'll re-write that scene and drop the whole tick list bullshit that determines whether Ciri lives or dies.