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Why the main narrative in the last third of the game is a bad hot mess [major spoilers!!!]

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K

kl4user

Forum regular
#121
Jun 9, 2015
Linkenski said:
Witcher 3 on the other hand, while it does need a bit of fixing and rollbacks to be perfect, can do just fine with an Extended Cut that adds a few more scenes to better expand the climax and the closure for Triss/Yen and side-characters like Dandelion, Zoltan and Priscilla.
Click to expand...
To be honest, TW3 needs a major revamp of its story to acknowledge all of our different choices in the previous games for it to not feel like an afterthought: Oh shit, we forgot this character? Quick, make a meaningless quest for him/her.

Fixing the third act would improve things, but that is not all that needs fixing.

TudorAdrian said:
....*sigh*...not a word about all the issues their fans have raised on the forums but enough time to reach out to the masses about their sales figures...at the end of the day $ is what it comes down to.
Click to expand...
I think they are waiting until the shit is a tad higher up their necks to say something, just like the whole downgrade issue.

moonknightgog said:
I hate this kind of useless fanservice. Those characters should be in the main quest, not in some pointless expansion.
Click to expand...
Exactly, having our choices from the previous games being respected is not fan service. It is good story service.

Linkenski said:
I think putting Roche and Ves and Letho within the main plot in some ways was already stretching it in terms of believability and suspend-disbelief, but adding in Iorveth, Saskia and all those too. It would become too obvious how fanservice-y it was, unless they had been smart about it and continued the roche's path and iorveth's path so it worked with Witcher 3's main quest too.
Click to expand...
I'll quote myself from another thread about Saskia:

kl4user said:
I don't think she needs to be seen in game, but she should play a role in it. This Phillipa loses control is as much bullshit as Henselt being killed anyway if we don't kill him. It is even insulting.

If you side with Iorveth and free Saskia, we should hear about them and their fight against Nilfgaard. If Roche can do guerilla, so does Saskia. It is not a stretch to think CDPR ignored her because how dumbed down are the politics in this game. All those who could and should have a role, who could affect the outcome of the war far more than killing or not the madman (you see, the guy who was not ignored just went batshit nuts). Henselt, Saskia, Anais, Adda are gone.
Click to expand...
They should have a role in the game. No need for them to appear directly in it, but we should hear about their exploits and they should affect something in the grand scheme of things.

moonknightgog said:
When there is a deus ex machina moment, if something happen without a proper explanation, if there are underdeveloped characters without a proper screentime and with very disappointing screenplay (hello, eredin) it's for sure objective.
Click to expand...
 
G

Gerudon

Rookie
#122
Jun 9, 2015
moonknightgog said:
Torment actually is the interactive manual entitled : "How to make a good RPG" :)
Look. In an RPG, you are playing as a character. In order to do it, you need an interpretative toolset. This one is assebled with three patterns: quest design, dialogues three and C&C system. Dialogues, in an RPG, are actually gameplay. Real gameplay, because the genre was never meant to be based on combat or other things.
You can play a session in Vampire (pen&paper) without a single combat.
Click to expand...
That would explain, why the combat system in P:T was very boring and bad.
P:T had a great story and good characters, but a lot of people put it on such a high throne...no, sorry, as a game it was rather mediocre in many ways and such a game can not be done in a modern 3D-RPG. Again: P:T was in many ways more a "chose your own adventure" book than a video game.
 
O

onionshavelayers

Rookie
#123
Jun 10, 2015
I just don't understand how the writers could make such basic mistakes in the writing, especially considering the quality of writing in the Witcher 2. The ending of Witcher 3 was terrible, pretty much felt like Mass Effect 3 all over again, except we only get one colour: white. I'm surprised that so many people are praising this game as a satisfying conclusion to Geralt's story when just the other day they were hating on ME3.

How can you produce a masterpiece like Witcher 2 and then switch to amateur in witcher 3. And it's not just the ending, there were so many moments in the game that were just shocking.

[SPOILERS AHEAD] One moment in particular (that still keeps me up at night) is when Geralt goes to Emhyer for help before the battle at Kaer Morhen. Emhyer says he wants Morvraan to command the army (his own or everyone is not specified) which doesn't sound all too bad. But when Geralt disagrees, the discussion ends there and then, and Emhyer gives Geralt nothing. NOTHING! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! WHAAAAAAAAAT!!!!!???? I know that Emhyer doesn't care about Ciri in a loving way BUT HE WANTS HER FOR HIS OWN PURPOSES AND THAT IS MOST IMPORTANT TO HIM SO WHY IS HE REFUSING TO HELP!!!!!! This is COMPLETELY OUT OF CHARACTER!

Anyway, I just hope that the lead writers for Cyberpunk do a better job. I don't want CDPR to turn into Bioware.
 
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moonknightgog

Forum veteran
#124
Jun 10, 2015
onionshavelayers said:
were hating on ME3.
Click to expand...
It's different. In Mass Effect 3 not only the ending itself was a problem, but even the fact that your choices didn't matter a shit. Your endind was based just on a choice you made 1 second before.
 
Last edited: Jun 10, 2015
T

TudorAdrian

Senior user
#125
Jun 10, 2015
moonknightgog said:
It's different. In Mass Effect 3 not only the ending itself was a problem, but even the fact that your choices didn't matter a shit. Yoour endind was based just only a choice you made 1 second before.
Click to expand...
Well honestly W3 isn't THAT further away from ME3 in regards to the ending honestly...Geralt's magnificent saga/going out with a bang boils down to 5 choices that strictly relate to his attitude towards Ciri...don't get me wrong...it worked 100% for the Geralt-Ciri thread and it really delivered on that front BUT Geralt deserved better..they just rushed it & now we're being promised expansion packs?! Like who the hell would buy an expansion pass for a game which so badly overlooked its main narrative/protagonist...why? so that i can get another bunch of sidequests (don't get me wrong, they're very well done) that add close to nothing to the mysteries of the Wild Hunt or all the other cool stuff CDPR built so much to in W1 and W2 but failed to deliver in W3...no, I will certainly not be spending any more coin until I see for myself it's worth it...I pre-ordered W3...not going to do anything like that again.
 
M

moonknightgog

Forum veteran
#126
Jun 10, 2015
TudorAdrian said:
Well honestly W3 isn't THAT further away from ME3 in regards to the ending honestly...Geralt's magnificent saga/going out with a bang boils down to 5 choices that strictly relate to his attitude towards Ciri...don't get me wrong...it worked 100% for the Geralt-Ciri thread and it really delivered on that front BUT Geralt deserved better..they just rushed it & now we're being promised expansion packs?! Like who the hell would buy an expansion pass for a game which so badly overlooked its main narrative/protagonist...why? so that i can get another bunch of sidequests (don't get me wrong, they're very well done) that add close to nothing to the mysteries of the Wild Hunt or all the other cool stuff CDPR built so much to in W1 and W2 but failed to deliver in W3...no, I will certainly not be spending any more coin until I see for myself it's worth it...I pre-ordered W3...not going to do anything like that again.
Click to expand...
I agree with you on the expansions. As I said before, I'm really not interested in the sidequests and pointless fan service when the main plot has several flaws.

But I think that the ending has problem about the pacing, the introdution of a deus ex machina moment without proper explanations, the underdeveloped characters and the lack of any kind of influence from the previous two witcher games.
Regarding the choices, if there is a problem, is not the choice itself, but the recap lines we have to select in the dialogues three, which not explain you properly what is gonna happen. And I think that the solution is returning to the old system, where the line you selected corresponded 100% to what you character will do.
But I think that, in the ending itself, the choices are well done, because....the story of Geralt is basically Ciri. She is the most important woman in her life. More than Triss and Yennefer. There isn't a better ending if this not involve his daughter. Adoptive daughter, but still his daughter.

I would add more consequences to other parts of the game. The Kaer Morhen battle, for example, like: If Keira is not there, then Lambert dies, which have repercussions on the third act, in the battle in Skellige.

For example, I really don't understand what is the point in Brothers in Arm if bringing your allies to Kaer Morhen or not has no consequences.

http://forums.cdprojektred.com/threads/47057-About-the-C-amp-C-system?p=1761475#post1761475
 
Last edited: Jun 10, 2015
L

Linkenski

Rookie
#127
Jun 10, 2015
moonknightgog said:
It's different. In Mass Effect 3 not only the ending itself was a problem, but even the fact that your choices didn't matter a shit. Yoour endind was based just only a choice you made 1 second before.
Click to expand...
But still, in Witcher 3 the ending is a problem, but unlike Mass Effect 3 it doesn't go out of its way to introduce an entirely new central conflict we've never heard of before and then try to solve that in the matter of minutes.

It's close, but at least it was foreshadowed throughout the entire game that the White Frost was a big deal. It was a mistake to check the box of "saving the world from White Frost" at the very last minute (because it's just too much at once) but again, at least we were familiar with the subject. I always grow frustrated with the common criticisms regarding ME3 because I honestly don't care for half of them and I think people miss the point more often than not. The whole nonsense with the catalyst at the end of that game dabbled into topics that completely derailed and discarded earlier themes that were prominent for the sake of some really vague and distant statement about technology and probably everything you could rip out of Deus Ex (the game) and it just didn't gel with Mass Effect at all.

So at least there IS context this time, which is why I hesitate to say it's as bad as ME3. I was happy to see the outcomes I got here, I just think it happened too fast, the climax was severely lacking something more to it and it all just happened too fast.

To @kl4user I know you're upset about a lot of TW123 continuity in general with some of those arguments, but I think you're asking way too much. We knew going into TW3 that, like TW2 did to TW1 the continuity was sort of there but it felt like a retcon-type sequel. I was surprised it had anything with Radovid in it at all. The continuity sucks most of the way through, but I felt like that was a given. The least I could expect was that the new focus of the story had been properly done, and that's where it fails for me, because it really is well done... until the very final bit where it fell off a cliff.

Also: The lead writer for TW2 as well as a few others weren't part of TW3. In fact all 3 games had different leads and even different directors. Of course they weren't going to be consistent.
 
Last edited: Jun 10, 2015
M

moonknightgog

Forum veteran
#128
Jun 10, 2015
Edit: Sorry, I misunaderstood your post.

Linkenski said:
Also: The lead writer for TW2 as well as a few others weren't part of TW3. In fact all 3 games had different leads and even different directors. Of course they weren't going to be consistent.
Click to expand...
 
T

TudorAdrian

Senior user
#129
Jun 10, 2015
Linkenski said:
Also: The lead writer for TW2 as well as a few others weren't part of TW3. In fact all 3 games had different leads and even different directors.
Click to expand...
Bummer..it shows.
 
P

PsyCoil

Forum regular
#130
Jun 10, 2015
Wait... wasn't marcin blacha part of the lead these last two games?
 
M

moonknightgog

Forum veteran
#131
Jun 10, 2015
PsyCoil said:
Wait... wasn't marcin blacha part of the lead these last two games?
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AFAIK, yes.
But...it doesn't really matter who was involved in the project. I think the problem is not about the workforce, but more about the fact that...for one reason or another, they had to rush the final part of the game.
 
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PsyCoil

Forum regular
#132
Jun 10, 2015
I don't think the last act should take all the blame. And I think CDPR changed their vision regarding complex stories after Witcher 2.
There was this interview where they talked about complexity and clarity in Storytelling and how they would like to focus on the former in Witcher 3.
I'll try finding it - I remember it got a lot of people worried.
 
K

keldrath

Rookie
#133
Jun 10, 2015
Totally agree about the Deus Ex Machina ending, especially the part about the White Frost and Ciri and her significance to the story. As someone who also read the books it made no sense to me, like CDPR just turned it all into something it wasn't, which felt really strange to me.
 
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pho3nix-bf

Senior user
#134
Jun 10, 2015
csf60 said:
It's not about being right or wrong. The story is what it is, you like it or not. More people agreeing on something doesn't make it more right.
Literature is not science, it's art. You don't go tell a painter or musician their art is wrong because other artist before them set a standard they should follow. The people that made this story did it the way they wanted it to be. Maybe you would enjoy it more if you didn't try to rationalize everything.
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Well being a painter myself I must say in my opinion what you are saying is not really right. You can focus on different painting styles, being it hyper-realism or impresionism, or abstractionism or whatever, of course. But still if you dont do some very basic things the "right" way - like setting a composition for example - then I guess your painting may end up not being worth much. And its actually not really important if you learned composition from tutors, or if you naturally, from the beggining, had a nice grip of it, you will eventually end up in sticking to mostly similiar "rules". Thats just my two cents. Sry for my ENG :)
 
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TudorAdrian

Senior user
#135
Jun 10, 2015
pho3nix-bf said:
Well being a painter myself I must say in my opinion what you are saying is not really right. You can focus on different painting styles, being it hyper-realism or impresionism, or abstractionism or whatever, of course. But still if you dont do some very basic things the "right" way - like setting a composition for example - then I guess your painting may end up not being worth much. And its actually not really important if you learned composition from tutors, or if you naturally, from the beggining, had a nice grip of it, you will eventually end up in sticking to mostly similiar "rules". Thats just my two cents. Sry for my ENG :)
Click to expand...
Nice analogy buddy. I play the guitar as well and even when trying to put together a song or lead you just have to stick to some progression elements that rely on harmonic relationships between different frequencies or the natural progression of chords taking into account the notes in a particular scale..try to whack in anything that isn't in harmony with your whole ensemble and you can be damn sure your little piece of art will be flawed...I'm not saying experimenting is wrong but the basic harmonic relationships between the sounds you use still dictate, at the end of the day, how far you can push it...same with goes for story writing/character development/narrative pacing..
 
A

AVMC

Rookie
#136
Jun 10, 2015
PsyCoil said:
I don't think the last act should take all the blame.
Click to expand...
Just a comparison for you...

Baron Quest Line... Entire Avallach/Ciri White Frost ending...

Don't see any differences in writing? Hell you could compare any major quest line in Velen to those in the last 3rd and they'd stomp them in pure attention to detail and, imo the big one, actual explanatory power. You GET what and why you're helping the Baron, be it's because you hate him and want to help for his family's sake, or you feel sorry for what a horrible shite he's become.
 
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I

inanimate_object

Rookie
#137
Jun 10, 2015
AVMC said:
Just a comparison for you...

Baron Quest Line... Entire Avallach/Ciri White Frost ending...

Don't see any differences in writing? Hell you could compare any major quest line in Velen to those in the last 3rd and they'd stomp them in pure attention to detail and, imo the big one, actual explanatory power. You GET what and why you're helping the Baron, be it's because you hate him and want to help for his family's sake, or you feel sorry for what a horrible shite he's become.
Click to expand...
That's not a fair comparison. You are comparing a subplot of Act 2 to the main plot of Act 3. Instead a fairer comparison is to judge the main plotpoints of both Acts. And what is there to say?

Act 2 doesn't have a main plot. It's a series of favours for people in order to do more favours for people in order to do more favours for people in order to get information on a girl who all know has long since quit the general vicinity.

Act 3 has a main plot, and is severely flawed.

I would not say that one act is better than the other. At the very least I can credit Act 3 for trying, which is more than can be said of the first two acts.
 
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TudorAdrian

Senior user
#138
Jun 10, 2015
AVMC said:
Just a comparison for you...

Baron Quest Line... Entire Avallach/Ciri White Frost ending...

Don't see any differences in writing? Hell you could compare any major quest line in Velen to those in the last 3rd and they'd stomp them in pure attention to detail and, imo the big one, actual explanatory power. You GET what and why you're helping the Baron, be it's because you hate him and want to help for his family's sake, or you feel sorry for what a horrible shite he's become.
Click to expand...
Yeap the Baron's character is given enough depth/character so that it makes the player feel involved with his struggles...whether or not you sympathize with him that's another story BUT you have good pacing there and a lot of depth to the character to help you relate....I can hardly say the same about the Wild Hunt for example..now why is that?!
 
Rawls

Rawls

Moderator
#139
Jun 10, 2015
SOOOOOOO I have thought about this a good bit.

I am going to preface this by saying that I am truly satisfied with the main story arch as is. So all of these ideas are things to make the story better in my opinion, but not to completely overhaul everything.

Up to the beginning of the Battle of Kaer Morhen nothing should change. It is wonderful.

During the battle of Kaer Morhen, characters that are not absolutely needed for the main plot after that point should be able to die depending on how many people are recruited during Brothers at Arms (i.e. pretty much everyone except for Yennefer, Avallach, Triss, Dijkstra, Ciri and Geralt - all of these are needed for the main quests in Novigrad). Roche is needed to complete Reasons of State ... but if he dies you just can't do Reasons of State. It would function similarly to the Suicide Mission in Mass Effect 2. Now since it is not the final mission, I don't think you should be able to "fail" at this point, but I think there should be more consequences. All the people carry a certain value to the Defense of Kaer Morhen. If you don't recruit anyone, everyone but those listed above die. If you only recruit some of the other allies, Vesemir + 2 or 3 others die (from Roche, Ves, Letho, Lambert, Eskel, Kiera, Ermion, Zolton, Haklmar, his living buddies, any others I'm forgetting). Who dies of course can't have side quests after this point. But that would make the mission even more tense. This would reward you for doing the side quests for the bothers at arms characters earlier in the game.

Second change would be at the end of Through Time and Space. The dream should have been a playable linear mission through Ciri's eyes since she is the person in the room who actually has all of the information about how the king died. Flash through several of the scenes in Chapter 5 of The Lady in the Lake. That would provide a great deal of back story to the Wild Hunt and explain what they are about and why they are after Ciri.

Then everything (with maybe a few more conversations with other characters - especially Triss) is the same until you get to the final battle during on Thin Ice. I think rather than just having Caranthir freezing everyone in the battle, it would be batter to have the Wild Hunt realize what is happening with the Witches magical trap and have Caranthir attack them. The Witches (who normally are not damsels in distress at all) have to remain completely focused on the spell they are casting to hold the Wild Hunt in this dimension. He first targets Triss and Margarita. Geralt cannot help them because rather than be completely frozen, he is stuck in battle. So Ciri teleports to save the Witches. The fight between Ciri and Caranthir goes as before, but Ciri also has to protect the Witches from other Wild Hunt members. When you get Caranthir to 2/3 health he opens a portal and flees over to Yen, Phillippa and Fringilla. You fight some more, again protecting the witches. When Caranthir gets to 1/3 health he flees back into the thick of the battle and Ciri chases. When you get him to almost dead, a cut scene begins like before and Ciri breaks his staff but he then is about to kill her. Rather than her Teleport away, Geralt saves her and pushes Caranthir away. She then awakes and teleports away. Geralt and Caranthir fight as before untul Caranthir is dead and teleports into the water as before.

Geralt goes to find Eredin and fights with Crach until Eredin is at 1/2 health. Eredin will have allies you have to fight as well. Then Eredin kills Crach. Fight continues as before going into the other dimension until Eredin is almost dead. Eredin then teleports back to the ship where you hack away at the rest of his life. Cut scene begins where Geralt is almost killed by Eredin but Ciri teleports in and saves Geralt. She then takes Geralt to the tower on Undvik, and with Avallach explains what she has to do. Geralt can say whatever he wants, but Ciri forges ahead. I think Avallach should have gone with her to provide some of the exposition.

Then you actually play the final scene with the White Frost. I'm sure they could write it better than I ever could ... but the important thing is to explain what Ciri can do to hold off the White Frost without dying. Depending on Geralt's conversations with her in the past, Ciri either lives or dies. Maybe his choices in those little events lead her to make specific choices once in the White Frost, and those combination of choices lead either to Ciri alive or Ciri dead. I.E. there is a time where she has to perform an especially difficult teleport or other time magic-y task - that will make the journey through the white frost easier. If Geralt told her to stick up for herself with the lodge she has the confidence to do it. But if Geralt went with her, she is unable to complete the teleport and it makes the journey much more difficult being traversed by foot. That is a really bad example. But you get the point of how prior choices could effect Ciri's journey through the White Frost. Then at the very end comes the scene where she has to perform whatever it is she can do to ensure the world is "reborn with the new sun" as described in Ithlinne's Prophesy. And depending on the combination of prior choices she ends in a place where she either stops the White Frost and lives, or stops the White Frost and sacrifices herself, leaving Avallach to tell Geralt her fortune.

Changing these few parts of the game (which are all linear missions - making it less difficult to change - though still a lot of stuff) would add more depth but keep the story largely the same. And who knows, maybe more people would like it the way it is now. I certainly like the ending by and large ... I just think it could have been a little better. But again, CDPR knows what they are doing more than I do. Maybe it's best to just leave it be and be happy I got to play a game like this at all.

Rant over.
 
A

AVMC

Rookie
#140
Jun 10, 2015
inanimate_object said:
That's not a fair comparison. You are comparing a subplot of Act 2 to the main plot of Act 3.
Click to expand...
That's totally irrelevant to whether we can discuss the pacing and building and exposition of character's desires and motivations... and if they were explored fully.

I don't care if it's the main plot or a sub plot. And actually, it IS a main plot. It's one of the three major subplots [can we call it that?] that must be fulfilled in the beginning to progress.

A small portion of the main quest, imo, eclipses the writing for the entire third act. That's kind of an issue in quality. And just to be fair, I don't think these writers are shite, quite the opposite. That's why I'm so confused.
 
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