Why the main narrative in the last third of the game is a bad hot mess [major spoilers!!!]

+
That's totally irrelevant to whether we can discuss the pacing and building and exposition of character's desires and motivations... and if they were explored fully.

I don't care if it's the main plot or a sub plot. And actually, it IS a main plot. It's one of the three major subplots [can we call it that?] that must be fulfilled in the beginning to progress.

A small portion of the main quest, imo, eclipses the writing for the entire third act. That's kind of an issue in quality. And just to be fair, I don't think these writers are shite, quite the opposite. That's why I'm so confused.
It's not irrelevant. Because if you are talking about pacing, that is the main gripe of Act 2 whereas Act 3 does not suffer in pacing, but in poor writing structure, conclusions and character arcs.

Having a good subplot does not make Act 2's main story any better than Act 3. How the main story is handled in both acts are just as poor, albeit for different reasons. There is not that many reasons to think the general quality of writing in Act 2 versus Act 3 as it pertains to the overarching story of the game, has changed. It has a shining subplot, which does not excuse the utter lack of focus on the main narrative.
 
It's not irrelevant. Because if you are talking about pacing, that is the main gripe of Act 2 whereas Act 3 does not suffer in pacing, but in poor writing structure, conclusions and character arcs.

Having a good subplot does not make Act 2's main story any better than Act 3. How the main story is handled in both acts are just as poor, albeit for different reasons. There is not that many reasons to think the general quality of writing in Act 2 versus Act 3 as it pertains to the overarching story of the game, has changed. It has a shining subplot, which does not excuse the utter lack of focus on the main narrative.

I think we both actually agree here on a lot and are not quite understanding each other. I'm not saying Act 2 is better and is how it should be overall. I'm saying I feel the writing of the characters and their motivations are handled better. This includes the reasoning in decisions that affect the main story line, like why the introduction of the White Frost?... why does Ciri all of a sudden care?... But it also includes the pacing at which you discover things.

Whether or not a story is a main line or a sub plot has absolutely NO bearing on the structures involved to convey the story.

I think we're getting caught up on that. As for Act 2's main story being just as bad, I just can't agree. Those sub-plots ARE the main arc. They are about finding Ciri. And they are FAR better paced and thought out.

It's the very fact that the main quest is about finding Ciri and this long, I think well paced, series of discoveries and conflicts that highlights just how strange it is to go, okay, we're done, Ciri, time to "Power Up!"... [you know, like in Altered Beast, anyone, anyone?]

I think calling the stuff in Act 2 [pertaining to finding Ciri] a subplot is giving a lot of credit to the plot about the White Frost. The story spends the majority of the main narrative... yes, the main narrative... in finding Ciri. It's only at the very end that it's like, well, now, let's real quick touch on the Wild Hunt leaders and, out of the blue, The White Frost.

This is all IMO, of course, and I'm glad we have these discussions. :D
 
Last edited:
I think we both actually agree here on a lot and are not quite understanding each other. I'm not saying Act 2 is better and is how it should be overall. I'm saying I feel the writing of the characters and their motivations are handled better. This includes the reasoning in decisions that affect the main story line, like why the introduction of the White Frost?... why does Ciri all of a sudden care?... But it also includes the pacing at which you discover things.

Whether or not a story is a main line or a sub plot has absolutely NO bearing on the structures involved to convey the story.

I think we're getting caught up on that. As for Act 2's main story being just as bad, I just can't agree. Those sub-plots ARE the main arc. They are about finding Ciri. And they are FAR better paced and thought out.

It's the very fact that the main quest is about finding Ciri and this long, I think well paced, series of discoveries and conflicts that highlights just how strange it is to go, okay, we're done, Ciri, time to "Power Up!"... [you know, like in Altered Beast, anyone, anyone?]

I think calling the stuff in Act 2 a subplot is giving a lot of credit to the plot about the White Frost. The story spends the majority of the main narrative... yes, the main narrative... in finding Ciri. It's only at the very end that it's like, well, now, let's real quick touch on the Wild Hunt leaders and, out of the blue, The White Frost.

This is all IMO, of course, and I'm glad we have these discussions. :D
In my opinion, Act 2 gets nothing wrong because there is nothing TO get wrong. It has no substance, pacing or drive. You are not pushed forwards in the plot with any substantial development. There are no principle characters who undergo serious arcs or transformations for the writers to mess up. There are no pivotal moments in Act 2 for the writers to stumble on. The lack of substance equates to the lack of opportunity to fuck up. That doesn't make it superior to an act which has tons of substance (too much in some cases) and everything goes to shit.

To me saying Act 2 has good storytelling is like saying a horrible film without point or pace with one single unrelated shot of brilliance is good cinema. There IS some good writing in Act 2 in places, but to say that Act 2 had a compelling storyline is very different.
 
In my opinion, Act 2 gets nothing wrong because there is nothing TO get wrong. It has no substance, pacing or drive. You are not pushed forwards in the plot with any substantial development. There are no principle characters who undergo serious arcs or transformations for the writers to mess up. There are no pivotal moments in Act 2 for the writers to stumble on. The lack of substance equates to the lack of opportunity to fuck up. That doesn't make it superior to an act which has tons of substance (too much in some cases) and everything goes to shit.

To me saying Act 2 has good storytelling is like saying a horrible film without point or pace with one single unrelated shot of brilliance is good cinema. There IS some good writing in Act 2 in places, but to say that Act 2 had a compelling storyline is very different.

You might be right...earlier acts kinda got the player in the mood and all and while there was some very good character development (subplots, whatever you wish to call it) there were some annoying threads as well (finding Dandelion for example...*sigh*)...the last act though is what I think most of the series fans actually expected..you know..where most of the pieces are in place you get to sink your teeth properly into the main plot, get some substance to what the story's been hinting at building up to...and then it just slaps you silly in the face! :D
 
Last edited:
One thought I had in regards to chasing after Ciri, which can also apply to Dandelion, is that the focus should've been more strongly on "what did they do here" rather than "Are they still here? Where did they go?". We got a bunch of hints in the hunt for Ciri about the curse she's trying to lift but it never really gets talked about. It's always about whether or not you're finding her. Same with Dandelion, especially since you get to find out interesting information alluding to him trying to case the bathhouse from the women he's been sleeping with. But that only ever is fluff, rather than important clues to figuring out where he is.

I would be much more compelling if you found them as a result of piecing together what they were up to as opposed to going from person to person until you "catch up" with your quarry. It wouldn't be much of a change to what we are currently doing, but would feel more rewarding imo.
 
Last edited:
but to say that Act 2 had a compelling storyline is very different.

Okay, gonna say this again. I'm not saying it was an absolute amazing storyline. Go back and read my posts from before. I'm saying I wish they would have spent the time and depth on the characters they did on the main characters and continued it on Act 3.

I personally just disagree that Act 2 had no pivotal moments. I assume when you say substance, you mean "quality content".[edit below] There is a lot there. And, as the game is concerned, it is the main storyline for Act 2.

Let me just say, with once again, no absolutes to quality, I think Act 2's handling of character interaction, pacing of how you encounter more information builds much better than Act 3. I think it's disjointed, and there are problems here and there. But each of the three main stories told in Act 2, with Skellige/Baron being better than Novigrad personally. Those are the main narratives that build the main storyline of this game in that Act.

I'm getting an impression that you think that because those narratives don't directly involve Ciri, and that you do other things to get help, that they are filler and don't touch on anything pivotal to some ideal Witcher main story line that doesn't actually exist in this game. If I'm wrong, please let me know, I'm not trying to assume, I'm trying to understand. I'm just comparing one part, with the other, of already existing parts... everything else really is secondary.

I see it differently, but again, I think saying you can't compare Act 2 vs 3 because Act 2 has no "substance" is ignoring that there are some amazing, well crafted characters, revelations, and unexpected endings. I think these are paced well compared to Act 3.

To me saying Act 2 has good storytelling is like saying a horrible film without point or pace with one single unrelated shot of brilliance is good cinema.

Well, quick point. A horrible film CAN have moments of good cinema. And, at no point am I talking about the quality of the game [the film, in your analogy] overall. I'm just talking about the writing and the delivery of the content... not whether the content is specifically about X.

Yes, you can talk about shite in one way and have it be better than another... and yes you're still talking about shit. Doesn't change anything. Can still compare them.

I think we disagree on what constitutes the main narrative. I've said about as much as I'm going to on this bit, but maybe others can expound upon it if they feel similar. Cheers!

EDIT: Sorry, reread your post, quality content I mean in terms of story content, not game content... just want to make sure I'm clear.

---------- Updated at 06:41 PM ----------

One thought I had in regards to chasing after Ciri, which can also apply to Dandelion, is that the focus should've been more strongly on "what did they do here" rather than "Are they still here? Where did they go?".

Not to double post, but yes, absolutely, would have loved that! I think that's what they might have been going for, or it feels that way. I feel like at one point the story might have been about following her from place to place and her actions didn't happen in one place til you reach the next. That's total conjecture on my part, it's just the vibe I get. It still feels like you're doing that, but at the same time know you have to do two other places... in an RPG that usually means none of the three are gonna be the answer. :D
 
Last edited:
I'm glad I found this post, as I felt the whole "White Frost" business came out of left field: it wasn't properly explored or explained. But this certainly wasn't the only odd occurrence or inconsistency in the game. Emhyr suddenly becoming a concerned father, let alone a semi-good guy??? Even odder was that he was somehow threatened by the Trade Corporations? There were several noteworthy elements which did not appear in keeping with the previous games or books.
 
Since the OP is a big wall of text, I've ignored it in the past but found some time and finally read it all. Very good observations and I agree with them all. What bothers me is that I was expecting at least one of the game writers to post a comment here, well, now I don't even know if they have read it. I'll be sure to send this thread's link to them via twitter.
 
I've written a lot on the main narrative of the game but I always thought that I missed something. I couldn't really explain why I feel so disappointed after the ending of TW3. I tried to find reasons why I thought the main narrative especially in the last third of the game was so lacking in my opinion and I think I find some good points. But at the same time, I felt that I didn't explain it thoroughly enough, maybe because I lacked the the proper insight or because I lacked the right words on maybe because I haven't gotten to the core of the problem yet. Well, in short: I never stopped thinking about it. I read a lot of other opinions from different people and - probably most important - I reconsidered why I love story-driven RPGs in the first place and what caused satisfaction in similar games. And I think I've found a big issue that hasn't been addressed in depth so far: it's an issue with choice mechanics in the game and how they relate to the concept of player agency. I've talked about choices (and consequence) before but I want to add this chapter to my assessment because I think it looks at the issue from a quite different angle and makes the problems with choices perhaps more comprehensible.


6.) Choice re-evaluated: where is the player agency?

Like always, I want to start with a bit of theory about choice in video games in order to get a proper foundation for the analysis. Choice is actually at the heart of video games as an interaction medium. Interactions in games are arguably either actions or choices. So, what's the difference? An action is basically everything the player can do in the game. Shooting enemies in an action game is simply an action. The most striking example for a purely action-driven game is a simple shooting gallery. It's your task to shoot at things. Either that or you don't progress. Either that or you die. There is no choice. Kill everything on the screen that moves or be killed. So what's the difference to choices? A choice is basically always a trade off between different possibilities, may it be a trade off between a long and a short term goal, a trade off between weapons or abilities you can use ora trade off between ingame goals and the player's desires on the outside. To put it simple: in a choice situation there is no simple right or wrong. A choice situation is no calculation that can be solved by pure reason and logic. At least that's what the player has to feel or think in the moment. The player has to think that he has an actual choice between two or more valid and comprehensible actions.

Basically there can be two different spheres of narratives in video games, especially RPGs: choices in terms of gameplay and narrative choices. Let's have a look at the former one first. Choices in gameplay means that you have different tools and abilities at your proposal to solve situations. Think of a tactical RPG. There usually are many options to solve a situation by using different strategies or tactics. Or think of Dark Souls. You try again and again to kill a certain enemy, trying different things to get it done. You continue to do so because you have the feeling that with a different approach or strategy you could do it someday. That's true choice, in a gameplay perspective. It's much what makes these games based on gameplay choices so satisfactiory. But then there is also the second category, choices which determine the storytelling and narrative. These are choices that decide how a story will continue. Almost every great (story-driven) RPG builds on both of these choice aspect, but RPGs are together with (point and click) adventures pretty much the only genre which usually offers extensive narrative choice (most action games offer a purely linear story that can't be changed or influenced by the player on a significant level). So it's perhaps no exaggeration to say that narrative choices are pretty much at the heart of RPGs, defining the genre and being one of its greatest strengths. Just think of the many RPGs that use this tools, games like Deus Ex Human Revolution, Mass Effect, Planescape Torment, Wasteland 2, Fallout 3, Alpha Protocol and - of course - Witcher 1 and 2. All these games build in certain way and at certain points heavily on narrative choices.

So what's make these narrative choices so attractive? Why do we want to experience them in RPGs? Well, that's probably just my interpretation but I think one of their core strengths is that they challenge us. They expose us to questions we have to think about. They confront us with situations in which we feel torn apart. They create the feeling in us that it's us who have influence on the world we're immersed in. That it's us who have the power anc control to change the fade of characters we like. That it's on us to make the ultimate decision. That's what is usually called agency, the feeling that you have power and control in a game, that you not only experience or watch it like a book or movie but that your actions and decisions have influence on how the narrative continues. Good choice situations can have a great emotional impact on us if they find the right tone and topic to challenge us on either a mental or emotional level (or both). When I play a good RPG that offers great situtions to make choices I often think about them a lot, even some time after I finished it. It's not always just about the consequences. A good choice situation doesn't in all case require a resolution or visible consequence. Our imagination is a great tool and it is often sufficient to feel the impact of a good choice situation. We envision the possible changes to the world we cause by our choices in our own imagination, struggling with ourselves if we did the right thing. Of course, something like that can only happen if the choice situation has a proper trade off like desribed above. The effect isn't the same if the assumed choice sitution is just a mere calculation.

So theory aside, what's the problem with choices in Witcher 3. Well, that might come as a surprise but the last third of the game narrative doesn't really offer many meaningful choice at all which sounds rather weird for a story-driven RPG that was so heavily marketed as a game that is ultimately based on meaningful choice and consequence and whose predecessors were a great example of good choice situations. And you might say that I neglect the situations in which Geralt deals with Ciri, the situations that determine which ending and epilogue you will see. Of course these situations exist, but are these real choice situation with a proper trade off? Is there a trade off between moral aspects? Is there a trade off between a long term or a short term goal at all? Is there a trade off betwen ingame goals or player's desires? Well, I don't think so. These situations are very much only calculations instead of choices and therefore simple actions wthout any emotional impact on the player. Ironically some people obviously even defend these dialogues between Geralt and Ciri with the argument that there is a definite path to the "right" ending if you follow a simple rule or psychological behaviour which is pretty much the definition of a simple calculation (right vs wrong) instead of a meaningful choice. I admit that there is basically one situation in the last third of the main narrative that could count as a "true" meaningful choice, namely the choice whether you tell Emhyr about Ciri or not. In that case you have an internal conflict between various considerations like your wish to protect Ciri, your probably reluctance against Nilfgaard and the emperor and your ongoing thought process about the various results that could arise from Ciri's fate (concerning the White Frost, the Wild Hunt, the northern kingdoms, her life, your life, and so on). That's meaningful choice that challenges the player without a clear, more or less obvious "right" decision.

Another issue that harmed these situations were the often completely misused time constraint to give an answer. They probably copied that element from games like The Walking Dead, but sadly without truly understanding the concept. In The Walking Dead these situations made sense and were properly used because two requirements were fulfilled: first, there was an actual urgency to the respective situation and second, the options were clear enough to give the player the actual chance to decide on an informed basis. Simple example: zombies are about to break into a house you're hiding in and you have to decide whether you send person A or person B to the door in order to stop them. Obviously there is urgency because the zombies could break in every minute. And the option to send one of these person is a clear task that doesn't involve a complicated thought process or higher moral concepts that needs time to be explored in depth. It's also a true meaningful choice because there obviously is no right or wrong. You know that whomever you sent might be killed and that in both cases you might feel sorry. It's a true "the lesser evil" situation in which you have decide in a certain amount of time. That entices you to make an emotionally guided decision, maybe just on the basis whom you like more. In such a situation the time contraint adds to the tension and the emotional impact. And in Witcher 3? Well, sadly in almost none of the situtions in which a time contraint is used in a dialogue choice there is any real urgency. So the context of the urgency is completely lacking. And then the choice situations themselves are not realy meaningful or written well enough to enable an emotional answer in such a short time, especially if you just follow the "I always make what she wants" principle. It's really weird. Either you see these situations just as simple calculations based on pure logic. In that case the time contraint makes no sense at all because there is not tension to be enhanced in the first place. Or you see these situations as proper meaningful choice situations. In that case the dialogue options aren't clear enough to give the player proper, unmisleading(!) information for a decison that doesn't feel arbitrary in the end. Of course the second option diminishes over time once you've realized that pretty every decisive narrative situation in the last third of the game between Geralt and Ciri follows the very same pattern with the very same calcuation behind it.

Apart from these situtions pretty much the whole rest of the last third of the main narrative is purely a linear experience without any meaningful decision involved. I asked myself why I felt this part of the game felt so underdeveloped (apart from obvious inconsistencies in the story itself and badly written ore underdeveloped characters) and that's the answer: I felt almost no agency. I didn't feel that my actions (as Geralt) matter or change anything that's going on on a greater scale. I just do what the game and the narrative wants me to do without any real influence on it. Weirdly enough the game doesn't even offer the illusion of choice very often. And when it does, it feels arbitrary or simply superficial (like e.g. the decision whether Geralt should grant Sile a mercy killing or not). Maybe the biggest diappointment was the realization that the ultimate end of the game was a pure matter of consequences based on these previous calculation-style "choice" situations. I mean, that's pretty weird since every other great RPG I know offers the player some kind of agency in the end, some bigger, some smaller. The end of a game has a big influence on how we feel about the game once we finished it. It determines whether we're satisfied or not. Usually RPG makers understand that. Often they even do a bit "too much" in that direction, as you could e.g. argue for example for Mass Effect 3. But then again, the ultimate choice in Mass Effect 3 was satisfactory because it challenged the player and gave him ultimate agency and feeling of "power" at the end (of course there were obvious problems with the story and the execution of the whole story in ME3, including the deus ex machina moment at the end, but that's a topic for a different discussion). Or think of Deus Ex Human Revolution, where you could decide on the future of augmentations and even sacrifice yourself in the process at the very end with the epilogues presented the though process behind these decision and the probable outcomes. Or think of Alpha Protocol which is almost exclusively made of meaningful choice situations until the very end. These games got this aspect right, the usage of meaningful choice situation at the right time to give the player agency and therefore satisfaction. In Witcher 3 however, the very end didn't give me the feeling that I had any power or agency. I did what I was supposed to do and then I watched what others did instead of doing or deciding something on my own. What makes it even worse is that the epilogues are far away from the actual choice situations and not influenced by what the player does in the last 2-3 hours in the game - at all. Instead, the epilogues are based on these calculation-based "choice" situations (which determine whether Ciri returns or not) and on the one true choice situation (which determines whether Ciri becomes Witcheress or empress) alone. It shouldn't come as a surprise that many gamers ask themselves how the hell the epilogue they see came together. And it also shouldn't come as a surprise that many players are not happy with the ending they got. That's actually a pretty weird thing since in a real meaningful choice situation along the famous line of "the lesser evil" that shouldn't even be possible. But without that there is no real and obvious chain of causality that connects your choice with how the narrative plays out. No matter which ending you see it's mostly not based on you struggeling with yourself about two almost equally hard options (the lesser evil) that both seem promising and depressing at the same time in certain ways in different situations but based on you saying arbitrary things to Ciri in arbitrary situations, situations which are neither urgent, nor provocing, nor challenging, nor offering any kind of trade off between different aspects. If you see the "bad" ending it's not because you made hard decisions, carefully considering different outcomes in your mind, it's only because you've failed at doing the "right thing". You've failed in doing what CDPR obviously wanted you to do and how they wanted you to treat Ciri (which becomes quite clear in the quite "negative" cutscenes you get to see if you decide wrongly in these situations". That's not a meaningful choice sitauation at all. That's not causing satisfaction for the player. That doesn't cause the player to think about the choice situations and decisions, at least not in a good way. That's actually not what the whole concept of narrative choices in RPGs is all about and that's a huge shame.

Looking at the end of Witcher 3 and the last third of the main narrative it almost seems that CDPR have forgotten everything they knew about meaningful choices and player agency in story-driven RPGs. It's hard to believe since they are pretty much the same people who did in outstanding job on the same matter in previous games and even in other parts of the same game. They neglected both all the best practice examples of the industry (including their own games in the same series....) and the basic theory of choices in video games for the end of Witcher 3 - on top of all the logical inconsistencies and underdeveloped aspects of the narrative. I cannot explain that. I wish I could but I can only guess and that probably leads nowhere. I can only assess and evaluate what's there. And what's there is a true and complete disappointment in one of the very basic and most fun aspects of story-driven video games that leaves the player behind without any satisfaction at the end an RPG player usually expects from such an experience. And that's a damn shame for a game, with these developers, with these predecessors and with such striking qualities in other aspects of the game.

:vava:
 
Nice analysis, but the C&C system in Mass Effect and Fallout 3 sucks as hell.

---------- Updated at 07:54 PM ----------

"But then again, the ultimate choice in Mass Effect 3 was satisfactory because it challenged the player and gave him ultimate agency and feeling of "power" at the end "

No, it wasn't. Because the choice was actually chosing between A, B or C, at the end, with an immediate consequence, which is really bad. The ending was related only to a stupid, basic, linear choice. And it wasn't better with the other choices, where the consequences were just a change in the skin of an NPC, or in the allies you had.
Which is exactly "how to not do an RPG".

If people asking from what the hell the ending in TW3 was based, then it means that, at least on the choices in the main quest, CDPR had done a great job. You don't have to understand to what a choice will lead. I agree with you that the "shorten" answer doesn't work, because you don't understand the choice (which is why I wish they'll return to the dialogues tree of the old RPG, and of TW1), but the problem is not in the ending itself. the problem of the choices is ...in the other choices. For example, Brothers in Arms, in which recruiting people for the Kaer Morhen battle, or not, doesn't have any consequences.
 
Last edited:
Nice analysis, but the C&C system in Mass Effect and Fallout 3 sucks as hell.

I didn't mean the whole C&C system from beginning to end (remember: I only talk about the last third of Witcher 3 here ), only the choices you could make at the very end, respecitvely. And both Fallout 3 and Mass Effect offered meaningful choices at the very end, at least for me. Witcher 3 doesn't. As I've said, Witcher 3 offered some nice choices in side quests and in the earlier main quest (like the Bloody Baron one) but it's almost a complete failure in that regard in the last third of the game. I agree that Mass Effect and Fallout 3 had their fair chance of problems as well when we look at the whole games, but again, that's not the scope of my assessment. ;)

"But then again, the ultimate choice in Mass Effect 3 was satisfactory because it challenged the player and gave him ultimate agency and feeling of "power" at the end "

No, it wasn't. Because the choice was actually chosing between A, B or C, at the end, with an immediate consequence, which is really bad. The ending was related only to a stupid, basic, linear choice. And it wasn't better with the other choices, where the consequences were just a change in the skin of an NPC, or in the allies you had.
Yes, it was. Because the one actual choice was more than Witcher 3 offered in the last third of the game. It's really that sad, sorry. As I've said before, the storyline leading to that decision in Mass Effect 3 wasn't very good but the choice itself felt meaningful to me (maybe even too meaningful) at that time. It felt satisfactory (although how the whole thing was constructed not that well -> deus ex machina).

Also a linear choice doesn't exist. A choice is alwys non-linear in itself. Witcher 3 is pretty much linear in the end because there is no actual meaningful choice.

But I don't want this discussion to become a discussion about Mass Effect 3. If you don't agree with me on that one, fine. Just exclude that one from the list of examples. Doesn't really change my actual points I think.... ;)
 
Last edited:
I didn't mean the whole C&C system from beginning to end (remember: I only talk about the last third of Witcher 3 here ), only the choices you could make at the very end, respecitvely. And both Fallout 3 and Mass Effect offered meaningful choices at the very end, at least for me. Witcher 3 doesn't. As I've said, Witcher 3 offered some nice choices in side quests and in the earlier main quest (like the Bloody Baron one) but it's almost a complete failure in that regard in the last third of the game. I agree that Mass Effect and Fallout 3 had their fair chance of problems as well when we look at the whole games, but again, that's not the scope of my assessment. ;)

I edit my previous post. Take a look.
 
No matter which ending you see it's mostly not based on you struggeling with yourself about two almost equally hard options (the lesser evil) that both seem promising and depressing at the same time in certain ways in different situations but based on you saying arbitrary things to Ciri in arbitrary situations, situations which are neither urgent, nor provocing, nor challenging, nor offering any kind of trade off between different aspects. If you see the "bad" ending it's not because you made hard decisions, carefully considering different outcomes in your mind, it's only because you've failed at doing the "right thing". You've failed in doing what CDPR obviously wanted you to do and how they wanted you to treat Ciri

Agree here. For a game that brandishes players' choices and consequences, the last one third of the game doesn't deliver, at all.

Devs talked about how some choices may have "unexpected" consequences, but that is very different from illogical consequences. Player's choices surrounding Ciri are often ill-informed and unexplained. The White Frost is basically an end-game-Ciri-happiness-point-checking mechanism that conveniently ties up player choices, with scarcely any explanation of the how. In the very end, what determines the epilogue was not "did I choose the lesser evil based on mature and informed decisions," but "is Ciri happy." This is bound to make players bewildered, to say the least, about the epilogue we got.

At least for me, a proof of the failure of the epilogues was how I immediately googled the Witcher 3 ending conditions after my original ending rubbed me the wrong way. A successful narrative ending to a RPG should not urge its players to do that, because the player should have expected, or at least be offered a satisfying explanation, of what decisions contributed to his epilogue.
 
The basic point is that the "after credits free-roaming" doesn't offer anything that a normal save game before the point of no return doesn't offer as well. So there is no point that this "after credits free roaming" even exists in the first place. It's just unnecessary, not even worth being called a feature. It's basically an automatic loading of a savegame from before the point of no return.

People should just understand that a story-driven game should end with the story. If you want to do other quests and activities, just do it before you get to the end of the game. Simple.

Were you planning to post this to my quotation of you in the other thread? ;)
 
I agree with you Scholdarr. From the perspective of someone who has not read the books, I'd also like to throw in that this was also part of the problem. The devs did a great job of pulling some material from the books for background explanation, but they didn't pull nearly enough to explain the motivations of Triss, Yen and Geralt in their love triangle (which left me asking more questions and wondering how to wade through that mess) and Ciri just comes out of nowhere and I'm supposed to care about her. Then I'm supposed to be a father figure. I wasn't even aware of the decisions you mention that affect her survival... I guess I've just been "lucky" that I've made enough correct decisions for her to survive. But don't even get me started on a game about Geralt that ends as a game about Ciri. That's definitely messy.
 
yeah I am having a hard time with those decisions that makes the "Bad Ending" or not, the dialogues and choices for 2 out of the decisions are not convincing enough to discourage Ciri about her potential powers (reactions when Ciri is called to the lodge of sorceresses and when Ciri wants to destroy Avallac'h's lab). I am trying to be a good parent and stay true to the Geralt character (like in the books) and turns out I got a Bad ending in my first playthorugh. I finally change those decisions to get the good endings but I still feel a little bit of disappointment of it.
Also the final battle is not as epic as the battle of Kaer Morhen. it's feel empty with Geralt has no real involvement with battle preparation. the sorcerers especially Yen and Triss are nowhere to be found on the battlefield when supposedly mage powers playing the important role for this battle (only Yen with the underwhelming "riding horse" mission). I really thought the final battle would be a full on clash between wild hunt army vs nilfgaardians vs skelligers (battle of three armies?). my overall impression is it's seems true that CDPR rushing the third act and makes the numbers of characters are no getting enough developments and the scenario is not as epic as players expected to be.
 
Top Bottom