I can't understand why ST gets snubbed by the devs. Last two patches, ST got the minimal and least meaningful changes (the same ST decks which work fortunately continues to work and the changes to ST in last two patches amounted to 0 change in how ST can play the game). While more and more changes are done to other factions and making their usable-but-not-played cards better and better, ST cards are just left to rot. There are so many cards in ST which are unplayable and powercrept to the ground and similar cards in other factions get buffed and made playable but not ST cards.
In 9.0, ST got the least change and only the Elven Mage is addable to the deck. Farseer is still as utterly pathetic as she was before. This would very well be not in the patch notes and it will have the same effect. In 8.5, the Oak change made 0 impact on ST decks. When it was nerfed, it got a provision nerf and when they want to "buff" it, they increased the power? Why not provision reduction? It will become playable? The Munro change impacted the game with nothing. I didn't see any Munro before or after. May be some streamer tried in two games and said "Munro is good" and then probably ditched that deck. Other changes made the least impact too.
The devs wanted to buff Mardroeme which was 12 for 5 in its specific deck (with added synergy with cards and leader) and make it to 4P and didn't care to touch Waylay which was 3 for 5 in most case, even in the deck it is supposed to be good (please don't throw the same argument that the DE is +2 with Vernosel.. it is wrong in so many levels and lets not get there). What was the need for Mardroeme to be buffed? Is it because SK should always have higher point potential than others? When 4P cards can reach 10 points, SK should get 12 points? Last patch they buffed Armor Up from 5p to 4p. When other 5p cards get buffed and ST cards are left to rot, it is actually hurtful to see that.
They changed the Bordosi brothers many times and made them really good at last. They buffed the crones many times and they were good and even now in the latest patch, but nothing on Etriel/Muirelga. Waters of Brokilon is 12P? Dryad Rangers, Forest Whisperes and Sirissa all should get 1 provision buff, but harmony is just not seen by the devs at all. The cat witcher was really good and they were prompt to nerf, but they are not prompt in buffing ST. I don't know what they have in mind, but clearly they don't care about ST and it is evident from the patch notes and the latest set of cards ST got.
Eldain, Vernossiel, Gezras, Barnabas, Brouver, Forest Protectos Eleas, Gabor, Saber-Tooh, Schirrú, Novigrad Justice, Call of the FOOrest, Shaping Nature, Rebuke, Dunca, Malena, Treant Bor, Trapas, Cat Witcjer, Don Blathana Sentler, a lot of units with poison, Hamadyad, Sorceres Of dal Blathana, Whisperes Of dal Blathanna, Brokilon Sentinel, Pyrotechnician, Make a bomb and problably a lot of more cards i forget that are good in SC.
So stop to only see the bad cards and try to see the good cards.
You whant what? Every SC card be good only because you love that faction?
Eldain, Vernossiel, Gezras, Barnabas, Brouver, Forest Protectos Eleas, Gabor, Saber-Tooh, Schirrú, Novigrad Justice, Call of the FOOrest, Shaping Nature, Rebuke, Dunca, Malena, Treant Bor, Trapas, Cat Witcjer, Don Blathana Sentler, a lot of units with poison, Hamadyad, Sorceres Of dal Blathana, Whisperes Of dal Blathanna, Brokilon Sentinel, Pyrotechnician, Make a bomb and problably a lot of more cards i forget that are good in SC.
So stop to only see the bad cards and try to see the good cards.
You whant what? Every SC card be good only because you love that faction?
So the OP lists specific issues and examples of ST seemingly being ignored by the devs recently, and you... listed a bunch of random ST cards you consider good? Wow, yes, with a list like that, we'd be crazy to complain or ask for any sort of proportionate improvements to the faction. I realize that now.
[...]
The devs wanted to buff Mardroeme which was 12 for 5 in its specific deck (with added synergy with cards and leader) and make it to 4P and didn't care to touch Waylay which was 3 for 5 in most case, even in the deck it is supposed to be good (please don't throw the same argument that the DE is +2 with Vernosel.. it is wrong in so many levels and lets not get there). What was the need for Mardroeme to be buffed? Is it because SK should always have higher point potential than others? [...]
This might be the most disingenuous argument I have seen yet.
For Mardroeme you attribute the full points of Dracoturtle to it (while the combo is garbage, unless executed by a leader ability or Scenario), so only consider the best case scenario, while counting the points generated by other cards to it as well, while not even counting the condition on Waylay being met and thus reach the conclusion it is a 3pt play.
Just for the record I agree that Waylay is bad and should either get 4 dmg, an easier condition or go down to 4p, however Mardroeme was not worth it and is now a decent consideration for SK decks, there is nothing wrong with making it a 4p card, just because Waylay is still bad.
Edit: I also agree that it is comical that the carddrop introduced an 8p card that generates more copies of a powercrept and terrible card.
So the OP lists specific issues and examples of ST seemingly being ignored by the devs recently, and you... listed a bunch of random ST cards you consider good? Wow, yes, with a list like that, we'd be crazy to complain or ask for any sort of proportionate improvements to the faction. I realize that now.
EduFerraz very accurately pointed out the lack of objectivity in the original post. Since WoW, ST has received a good number of very interesting and usable cards — as well as good buffs. The first PoP drops may be a little underwhelming, but few of those cards (other than the neutral ones) were that remarkable. Certainly, neither SY or SK got anything particularly exciting either, and the NG got saddled with Rience. There is absolutely no objective evidence suggesting the developers neglect ST.
EduFerraz very accurately pointed out the lack of objectivity in the original post. Since WoW, ST has received a good number of very interesting and usable cards — as well as good buffs. The first PoP drops may be a little underwhelming, but few of those cards (other than the neutral ones) were that remarkable. Certainly, neither SY or SK got anything particularly exciting either, and the NG got saddled with Rience. There is absolutely no objective evidence suggesting the developers neglect ST.
No, he did not. The list of cards, while anything but "objective" in its own claim that all of the list ST cards are "good," also has nothing to do with the OP's issue with the "last two patches," which is illustrated by multiple specific examples. I could repeat them, or you could go back and read the original post. Whether or not it can be considered "objective evidence" for anything, it is certainly enough to start a discussion beyond "But ST has these 20 cards I consider good, so stop whining."
So the OP lists specific issues and examples of ST seemingly being ignored by the devs recently, and you... listed a bunch of random ST cards you consider good? Wow, yes, with a list like that, we'd be crazy to complain or ask for any sort of proportionate improvements to the faction. I realize that now.
EduFerraz very accurately pointed out the lack of objectivity in the original post. Since WoW, ST has received a good number of very interesting and usable cards — as well as good buffs. The first PoP drops may be a little underwhelming, but few of those cards (other than the neutral ones) were that remarkable. Certainly, neither SY or SK got anything particularly exciting either, and the NG got saddled with Rience. There is absolutely no objective evidence suggesting the developers neglect ST.
In adiction, WOW expansion gives a lot of good cards and combo.
Gezras is one of the best card in WOW expansion. Also, cat witchers are the best bronzes (or one of the best)
Cat witcher mentor, maybe its not so good, but if you combo with tiger-tooh they give you a lot of points. Also, it can be combined with gaetan and Sentler.
Cat witcher Sabeteur and Cat Witcher adept are indeed not so good cards, but i think every faction gots useless bronze in last expansion (or do you see people playing phooca or salamander mage?).
Brehen in fact its not so good as i thought it was going be, but i think the devs intention here were good, but the card didnt perform so well.
In the "mini expansio " after (the leader cards) SC gets too fu**ing good cards.
And now, in PoP expansion, indeed Vanadain its a sh** card, and i dunno where devs were in mind to create something like that. But thats is an error and problably the devs will change the card in the next month.
So, repeating, i cant see devs neglect the SC as the OP think
No, he did not. The list of cards, while anything but "objective" in its own claim that all of the list ST cards are "good," also has nothing to do with the OP's issue with the "last two patches," which is illustrated by multiple specific examples. I could repeat them, or you could go back and read the original post. Whether or not it can be considered "objective evidence" for anything, it is certainly enough to start a discussion beyond "But ST has these 20 cards I consider good, so stop whining."
Yes, and the OP was talking about the last two "patches," not expansions. And if you review patch notes for 9.0 and 8.5 to understand what he specifically is talking about, you will see that the biggest ST change in those two patches was the Invigorate buff, which did absolutely nothing, while all other changes did even less. Meanwhile, SK get stuff quartermaster zeal for no freaking reason and Coral change that's pretty badass, and NG soldier archetype gets a bunch of cool buffs, and SY gets a bunch of buffs, and MO gets buffs, and now NR gets a bunch of cool stuff. And before you say "that's just the last two patches," that's two freaking seasons and it's a lot of time and those who play one faction primarily NOTICE stuff like that.
This might be the most disingenuous argument I have seen yet.
For Mardroeme you attribute the full points of Dracoturtle to it (while the combo is garbage, unless executed by a leader ability or Scenario), so only consider the best case scenario, while counting the points generated by other cards to it as well, while not even counting the condition on Waylay being met and thus reach the conclusion it is a 3pt play.
Just for the record I agree that Waylay is bad and should either get 4 dmg, an easier condition or go down to 4p, however Mardroeme was not worth it and is now a decent consideration for SK decks, there is nothing wrong with making it a 4p card, just because Waylay is still bad.
Edit: I also agree that it is comical that the carddrop introduced an 8p card that generates more copies of a powercrept and terrible card.
Listen, the bottom line is, Mardroeme was a straight 6 for 5 that could be 9 for 5 if hitting armor or 12 for 5 if hitting the turtle, or 13 for 5 if there was a damaged unit on the board, or 17 for 5 if whatshername was in the graveyard at the time. But really, it was a 6 for 5 that could be 9 for 5 with minimal condition. How is that "not worth it"? Why does that scream 4p? Why is that a priority buff? And yes, especially while cards like Waylay exist?
[...]
Listen, the bottom line is, Mardroeme was a straight 6 for 5 that could be 9 for 5 if hitting armor or 12 for 5 if hitting the turtle, or 13 for 5 if there was a damaged unit on the board, or 17 for 5 if whatshername was in the graveyard at the time. But really, it was a 6 for 5 that could be 9 for 5 with minimal condition. How is that "not worth it"? Why does that scream 4p? Why is that a priority buff? And yes, especially while cards like Waylay exist?
Because it plays insanely into tall punish and unless you have 3 Armor, which is rarer than you are willing to admit, the cards does not reliably play for good value on targets that are worth it without such interactions.
Mardroeme was not worth it, given the fact that for decent value (8 for 5 on a unit with 2 Armor) it was (and is) insanely vulnerable against tall punish, especially Poison.
Also the "[...] especially while cards like Waylay exist?" is not something you need to ask me, I already stated that Waylay is (unironically) unplayable and needs to be buffed, also I never claimed Mardroeme was a priority buff.
What I said is that your argument was build in a very disingenuous way and that that the Mardroeme buff was not unreasonable, which is not to say there are not other cards deserving of the same (or even more) attention.
Yes, and the OP was talking about the last two "patches," not expansions. And if you review patch notes for 9.0 and 8.5 to understand what he specifically is talking about, you will see that the biggest ST change in those two patches was the Invigorate buff, which did absolutely nothing, while all other changes did even less. Meanwhile, SK get stuff quartermaster zeal for no freaking reason and Coral change that's pretty badass, and NG soldier archetype gets a bunch of cool buffs, and SY gets a bunch of buffs, and MO gets buffs, and now NR gets a bunch of cool stuff. And before you say "that's just the last two patches," that's two freaking seasons and it's a lot of time and those who play one faction primarily NOTICE stuff like that.
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Listen, the bottom line is, Mardroeme was a straight 6 for 5 that could be 9 for 5 if hitting armor or 12 for 5 if hitting the turtle, or 13 for 5 if there was a damaged unit on the board, or 17 for 5 if whatshername was in the graveyard at the time. But really, it was a 6 for 5 that could be 9 for 5 with minimal condition. How is that "not worth it"? Why does that scream 4p? Why is that a priority buff? And yes, especially while cards like Waylay exist?
Well, i cant remember SC getting nerfed too, and eldain/traps really need a nerf.
So you can call whetever you whant, but i dont think devs neglict it, its only a faction where there is good cards, sinergy and can compete with almost all the decks.
Its have a bunch of bronze craps? OF course, but wich faction doesnt have?
And, no matter what devs change, SC players will always play the same - deadaim ambush (only elfs or elfs and witcher or elfs and traps) or, the most anoiyng, precision strike.
Devs changes Saskia.. SC players even try it in Spelliatell or Harmony decks? I used saskia in my spelliatel deck even before the change.
Devs change a lot of traps, giving spring on them, and also down some provision in other cards who support traps, but SC players cant see it
great oak gets buffed, one more time, where is the coments about this? Only saying there is no impact, but that is a lie, i am seeing a lot of decks with oak now.
SC its the onyl faction wich has 2 locks gold cards.
SC has some of the best tutors
SC has the best movements cards
SC has 2 easy cards that gain resilence.
And so on.
So i repeat, there is no big changes because the faction ir already well balanced.
I've seen a few people mention this, and I have to ask why people consider a straight out nerf to the Elven Scribe to be a buff?
It now buffs by 6 when you play 3 specials. Guess what? IT DID THAT BEFORE. It also buffed by 2 if you only played 1 special. And buffed by 4 if you played 2 specials. Or 8 if you played 4 specials. And so on...
It's even more useless now than it used to be because it gains nothing on the first two specials played or any special after the third. Unless CDPR decides to allow the counter to decrement while the card is in your hand, there's absolutely no benefit to the change that was made.
I've seen a few people mention this, and I have to ask why people consider a straight out nerf to the Elven Scribe to be a buff?
It now buffs by 6 when you play 3 specials. Guess what? IT DID THAT BEFORE. It also buffed by 2 if you only played 1 special. And buffed by 4 if you played 2 specials. Or 8 if you played 4 specials. And so on...
It's even more useless now than it used to be because it gains nothing on the first two specials played or any special after the third. Unless CDPR decides to allow the counter to decrement while the card is in your hand, there's absolutely no benefit to the change that was made.
It is now a 4p, rather than 6p though, so the Elven Scribe is a lot less commital and damage against it is a lot less valuable than before.
If anything I would say that this change is similar to the change Greatswords got.
It is now a 4p, rather than 6p though, so the Elven Scribe is a lot less commital and damage against it is a lot less valuable than before.
If anything I would say that this change is similar to the change Greatswords got.
I'd argue the exact opposite and claim that damage against it is FAR more effective than it was before. If you've played it and 2 specials, your opponent can now destroy what will imminently be a 10 point card with 4 points of damage. That's a bargain. Previously that card would've been outside easy removal after the first special was played. They may have reduced the provision cost from 6 to 4, but they nerfed the utility of the card to the point where, in my opinion, it's not worth putting into a deck unless you want to gamble that your opponent doesn't have any removal.
EDIT - I'd argue that it should've been a 4 pr card with the old ability all along, just like the Elven Scout. After all, they're the same card differing only in the fact that one boosted off traps and the other off specials. I'm now expecting that 9.1 will see the Scout reworked to have a counter so that it doesn't boost until three traps have been sprung...
I'd argue the exact opposite and claim that damage against it is FAR more effective than it was before. If you've played it and 2 specials, your opponent can now destroy what will imminently be a 10 point card with 4 points of damage. That's a bargain. Previously that card would've been outside easy removal after the first special was played. They may have reduced the provision cost from 6 to 4, but they nerfed the utility of the card to the point where, in my opinion, it's not worth putting into a deck unless you want to gamble that your opponent doesn't have any removal.
EDIT - I'd argue that it should've been a 4 pr card with the old ability all along, just like the Elven Scout. After all, they're the same card differing only in the fact that one boosted off traps and the other off specials. I'm now expecting that 9.1 will see the Scout reworked to have a counter so that it doesn't boost until three traps have been sprung...
At that point the opponent already passed the option of answering before those 2 Specials would have been played. I do not get that point, given that the opponent should remove it immediately in either case.
Only that now after it being answered by a card that can deal 4+ damage you lost a 4p card, rather than a 6p card.
The old ability on 4p would make Witch Apprentice look like a comparatively unplayable card.
Rather than ineffectively railing more about blatant nonobjectivity in certain comments, let me try to address the issue objectively. I am intentionally leaving NR out of this discussion because they were a deliberate focus of patch 9.0 and because I think more time is needed to evaluate that faction.
1. If one looks at card changes to weak cards in factions in patch 9.0, I agree with the original poser. In fact, I think ST got worse than nothing. Farseer is still far from viable, and elven scribe has gone from playing a niche role to playing no role in any deck of which I can conceive. But I would also argue that none of MO, SK, and SY received anything significant in the patch either. You might see crones and ghouls used more often, but not in top MO decks. The implication that Mardroeme will have SK trampling all comers is absurd. At best Mardrome will play a minor role in a Druid archetype. Probably more significant are changes to Drakker and Sigrdrifa’s Rite, but neither of those cards presently see much play even after the change. Passiflora peaches offers SY another usable card in high coin generating decks, but will not make or break anything. Only NG really benefits from the patch in that magne division has now lost a significant drawback. A frequently played card (only because there was nothing better) has now become a decent card. Yes patch 9.0 should be disappointing to ST players, but it hardly was a big plus to other factions.
2. Regarding the partial expansion, again, I see little really enticing to ST players. Vanadain, without significant new synergies or a substantial buff to the effect of Waylay is unusable. But Francesca — if she survives — is likely game winning. I put her in somewhat the same category as Syanna: impactful but risky. She might not be tier 1, but she will always be meme quality and fun to play. Moreover, I expect both Sorceress and Whisperer of Dol Blathanna to find their way into numerous top ST decks, although mainly for lack of better choices. But despite the farcical Vanadain, on the whole ST cards were not horrible. For example, barring development of new synergies, I don’t expect to see any of the new SK cards used in serious decks once their newness wears off. Not that the cards are bad, but they’re not good enough to build an archetype. The SY cards nicely support a bounty archetype, but, from what I’ve observed, that archetype is less consistent than pirates cove decks. I do think She who knows and witch apprentice will give monsters viable new options (or at least variants). Again NG was probably helped most by a strong bronze combination package that will be autoinclude. Dead man’s tongue is a great thinner and provides good reach, though it does create a tall target. This offsets the difficulty of effectively using Rience, which is probably a weak card — almost in the same category as Vanadain.
3. Regarding the 8.5 patch, I again don’t think ST has anything to complain about. Oak, Neophyte, Munro, and Vrihedd Vanguard are now viable cards. They are not instantly autoinclude, but no buff should be. All can meaningfully contribute in the right context. Other factions also got some great buffs in this patch, but I wouldn’t put them orders of magnitude better than ST’s (except for Whoreson Junior which is now a broken card — the devotion drawback is insufficient given the SY removal available in devotion and the midrangy nature of SY decks reducing need for tutors).
Whether ST got less than other factions in these updates is arguable, but the notion that developers are intentionally and dramatically neglecting ST is not supported by objectively viewed evidence.
Because it plays insanely into tall punish and unless you have 3 Armor, which is rarer than you are willing to admit, the cards does not reliably play for good value on targets that are worth it without such interactions.
Mardroeme was not worth it, given the fact that for decent value (8 for 5 on a unit with 2 Armor) it was (and is) insanely vulnerable against tall punish, especially Poison.
Also the "[...] especially while cards like Waylay exist?" is not something you need to ask me, I already stated that Waylay is (unironically) unplayable and needs to be buffed, also I never claimed Mardroeme was a priority buff.
What I said is that your argument was build in a very disingenuous way and that that the Mardroeme buff was not unreasonable, which is not to say there are not other cards deserving of the same (or even more) attention.
Please, a 4-5p card doesn't "play insanely into tall punish." ST Echo card also "plays insanely into tall punish," so why is it 9p and not 4p? In fact, why don't we just make ALL of the cards that go tall 4p, because apparently otherwise it's "not worth it."
Also the "also" part, which you cut off half of the quote to make it make less sense and then responded to it like it was the whole thing, I did read what you wrote about Waylay in your response to the OP, nor did I claim YOU said Mardro was a priority buff. Rather, in both instances I was reiterating the question OP posited in his original post about why the devs thought a card like Mardroeme needed a buff IN THIS PATCH (read: was a priority for the devs) when cards like Waylay, which NEED MUCH MORE WORK AND ATTENTION are ignored. The point being (I assume) Mardro is SK, which, as a faction, has been consistently getting buffs after buffs, arguably well past what's necessary if we follow the meta, whereas Waylay is ST, and the dichotomy between the two was supposed to illustrate the difference in treatment of factions.
And finally, the "disingenious" argument wasn't mine, but OP's (who is not me), which, either way, I don't consider to be such.
Rather than ineffectively railing more about blatant nonobjectivity in certain comments, let me try to address the issue objectively. I am intentionally leaving NR out of this discussion because they were a deliberate focus of patch 9.0 and because I think more time is needed to evaluate that faction.
1. If one looks at card changes to weak cards in factions in patch 9.0, I agree with the original poser. In fact, I think ST got worse than nothing. Farseer is still far from viable, and elven scribe has gone from playing a niche role to playing no role in any deck of which I can conceive. But I would also argue that none of MO, SK, and SY received anything significant in the patch either. You might see crones and ghouls used more often, but not in top MO decks. The implication that Mardroeme will have SK trampling all comers is absurd. At best Mardrome will play a minor role in a Druid archetype. Probably more significant are changes to Drakker and Sigrdrifa’s Rite, but neither of those cards presently see much play even after the change. Passiflora peaches offers SY another usable card in high coin generating decks, but will not make or break anything. Only NG really benefits from the patch in that magne division has now lost a significant drawback. A frequently played card (only because there was nothing better) has now become a decent card. Yes patch 9.0 should be disappointing to ST players, but it hardly was a big plus to other factions.
2. Regarding the partial expansion, again, I see little really enticing to ST players. Vanadain, without significant new synergies or a substantial buff to the effect of Waylay is unusable. But Francesca — if she survives — is likely game winning. I put her in somewhat the same category as Syanna: impactful but risky. She might not be tier 1, but she will always be meme quality and fun to play. Moreover, I expect both Sorceress and Whisperer of Dol Blathanna to find their way into numerous top ST decks, although mainly for lack of better choices. But despite the farcical Vanadain, on the whole ST cards were not horrible. For example, barring development of new synergies, I don’t expect to see any of the new SK cards used in serious decks once their newness wears off. Not that the cards are bad, but they’re not good enough to build an archetype. The SY cards nicely support a bounty archetype, but, from what I’ve observed, that archetype is less consistent than pirates cove decks. I do think She who knows and witch apprentice will give monsters viable new options (or at least variants). Again NG was probably helped most by a strong bronze combination package that will be autoinclude. Dead man’s tongue is a great thinner and provides good reach, though it does create a tall target. This offsets the difficulty of effectively using Rience, which is probably a weak card — almost in the same category as Vanadain.
3. Regarding the 8.5 patch, I again don’t think ST has anything to complain about. Oak, Neophyte, Munro, and Vrihedd Vanguard are now viable cards. They are not instantly autoinclude, but no buff should be. All can meaningfully contribute in the right context. Other factions also got some great buffs in this patch, but I wouldn’t put them orders of magnitude better than ST’s (except for Whoreson Junior which is now a broken card — the devotion drawback is insufficient given the SY removal available in devotion and the midrangy nature of SY decks reducing need for tutors).
Whether ST got less than other factions in these updates is arguable, but the notion that developers are intentionally and dramatically neglecting ST is not supported by objectively viewed evidence.
1. The fact that none of the other factions got anything blatantly game-breaking in the 9.0 is not an objective proof of lack of deliberate neglect. Whatever they got, those factions got meaningful changes. Sigdriffa's Rite went from 9 to 8p. Peaches 5 to 4. Mardro to 4. Those are MEANINGFUL changes. Magne is a meaningful change. [AND JESUS WHY THE HELL DID THEY MAKE BOMBARDMENT 4P? That card was already insane!] These changes will affect how the decks are built and played. Oak, meanwhile, got 1HP buff in 8.5 instead of provision, which it had pre-harmony murder. That means f*ck all. Munro rework to zeal DOESN'T CHANGE ANYTHING. Neophytes are a novelty card. Seer boost of 1 point, on a card that's still 50/50 success at best, does NOTHING. Nobody needed that. It will never be played. Sage change to 4p would be meaningful if they left him alone, but with the rework this change is pointless. Card got cheaper, but also worse. So yeah, other factions may not have gotten anything super OP in the last two patches, but that's a pretty weak argument if you're trying to convince me that THEREFORE ST IS OK. Even though I personally don't subscribe to the "deliberate neglect" theory, it's pretty plain to anybody who but looks that ST got shafted big time the last two months.
2. I'm not really worried about the expansion business at all. Vanadain is a bad card, but bronzes are OK, and Fran is fine, because she demands thinking, though I think it will be rare that she actually "wins" games.
3. Already mentioned 8.5 patch. You don't think ST has anything to complain about? Well, that's not objective. You think Oak, Neo, Munro and Vrihedd are "viable" now? Guess what? That's not objective. Not only they aren't instantly auto-include, they aren't even recommended most of the time. And if they ARE playable in certain decks, well, they were playable in those same exact decks BEFORE this patch and I'm willing to bet the winrates of those decks did not improve after 8.5. Objectively. And no, Whoreson wasn't the only buff better than what ST got in 8.5. Even someone like an Unseen Elder going from 5 to 6 is MAGNITUDES better than Oak going from 7 to 8. Do I have to explain why that is?
Anyway, like I said, it might not be malicious or deliberate, but the devs have not really give ST anything fun to work with, patch-wise, in 2 month. Maybe they're just running out of ideas.
Please, a 4-5p card doesn't "play insanely into tall punish." ST Echo card also "plays insanely into tall punish," so why is it 9p and not 4p? In fact, why don't we just make ALL of the cards that go tall 4p, because apparently otherwise it's "not worth it."
[...]
It does, if you trade multiple cards down against a single card it is playing something insanely vulnerable to it.
And a card that is conditional on getting good value, however puts all of that into creating one large unit, is hardly good.
It is a 6 for 5, which is far below what is acceptable for a 5p card, which can play as a conditional 7 for 5 on a unit with Armor and maybe 8/9 for 5 on a unit with 2/3 Armor.
My argument is that the value is average, while the distribution is as awful as it could get.
Also the example with the ST Echo is not a good one, since I still maintain that Shaping Nature is overpriced and by far the worst Echo.
My point is that cards that do nothing but throw their entire value on a single unit to make it taller are not exactly amazing, given that those make you trade multiple cards down against a single tall punish.
Also give me examples for all of those cards that you refer to with "just make ALL of the cards that go tall 4p, because apparently otherwise it's "not worth it."".
The only examples I could find that would fit that description are Swallow Potion, Adrenaline Rush, Shaping Nature and Garrison, as only those play their entire value onto a single target and unlike Mardroeme those can all be used on 1-2 strength tokens.
[...]
Also the "also" part, which you cut off half of the quote to make it make less sense and then responded to it like it was the whole thing, I did read what you wrote about Waylay in your response to the OP, nor did I claim YOU said Mardro was a priority buff. Rather, in both instances I was reiterating the question OP posited in his original post about why the devs thought a card like Mardroeme needed a buff IN THIS PATCH (read: was a priority for the devs) when cards like Waylay, which NEED MUCH MORE WORK AND ATTENTION are ignored. The point being (I assume) Mardro is SK, which, as a faction, has been consistently getting buffs after buffs, arguably well past what's necessary if we follow the meta, whereas Waylay is ST, and the dichotomy between the two was supposed to illustrate the difference in treatment of factions.
[...]
Eldain, Vernossiel, Gezras, Barnabas, Brouver, Forest Protectos Eleas, Gabor, Saber-Tooh, Schirrú, Novigrad Justice, Call of the FOOrest, Shaping Nature, Rebuke, Dunca, Malena, Treant Bor, Trapas, Cat Witcjer, Don Blathana Sentler, a lot of units with poison, Hamadyad, Sorceres Of dal Blathana, Whisperes Of dal Blathanna, Brokilon Sentinel, Pyrotechnician, Make a bomb and problably a lot of more cards i forget that are good in SC.
So stop to only see the bad cards and try to see the good cards.
You whant what? Every SC card be good only because you love that faction?
I didn't say ST doesn't have any good cards. I don't understand the point of listing the playable cards (and sneaking Making a Bomb there to make the list bigger Making a Bomb is weaker than Dimeritum Bomb which is neutral 4P card. The one and only instance in which Making a Bomb is better is, when it moves the SK boat if the opponent plays that card as first card. In ever other situation Making a Bomb is junk and weaker than equivalent 4p removal, including neutrals. I am an ST main and when I want to add 4P removal, I add Dimeretium Bomb and not Making a Bomb). Also Malena is a very good card? When did you use or see Malena? She is barely playable. Barnabas supports Harmony which is in a shitty position. All ST poisons are good? So, you probably hate ST and just want to mention more cards to make your point good. When did you last see ST playing poison? So, your whole argument is moot just because you have blindly listed a lot of cards which are barely playable. They are not shitty, but they are not good either. Every faction will have such a list and I am sure other factions will have more such cards that can be listed.
Also, I was mainly telling about the balance patch ST received in last two patches.
Gezras is one of the best card in WOW expansion. Also, cat witchers are the best bronzes (or one of the best)
Cat witcher mentor, maybe its not so good, but if you combo with tiger-tooh they give you a lot of points. Also, it can be combined with gaetan and Sentler.
Cat witcher Sabeteur and Cat Witcher adept are indeed not so good cards, but i think every faction gots useless bronze in last expansion (or do you see people playing phooca or salamander mage?).
Brehen in fact its not so good as i thought it was going be, but i think the devs intention here were good, but the card didnt perform so well.
In the "mini expansio " after (the leader cards) SC gets too fu**ing good cards.
And now, in PoP expansion, indeed Vanadain its a sh** card, and i dunno where devs were in mind to create something like that. But thats is an error and problably the devs will change the card in the next month.
So, repeating, i cant see devs neglect the SC as the OP think
Post automatically merged:
Well, i was writing my answer and only see this now.
My post above is talking about the last 2 expansions, and also the leaders cards
Cat Witchers were very good, in fact too good to be in ST and got nerfed. They are good, but not on par with many other cards. ST movement is almost dead and Cat Witchers are not seen much. If one is blind by hatred, they may not see it though.
Cat Witcher Mentor, the fact that you want to list this card is funny.
Again, I didn't say ST doesn't have any playable cards. I even mentioned that ST has couple of good decks that work and those are the only decks ST plays for many months.
Well, i cant remember SC getting nerfed too, and eldain/traps really need a nerf.
So you can call whetever you whant, but i dont think devs neglict it, its only a faction where there is good cards, sinergy and can compete with almost all the decks.
Its have a bunch of bronze craps? OF course, but wich faction doesnt have?
And, no matter what devs change, SC players will always play the same - deadaim ambush (only elfs or elfs and witcher or elfs and traps) or, the most anoiyng, precision strike.
Devs changes Saskia.. SC players even try it in Spelliatell or Harmony decks? I used saskia in my spelliatel deck even before the change.
Devs change a lot of traps, giving spring on them, and also down some provision in other cards who support traps, but SC players cant see it
great oak gets buffed, one more time, where is the coments about this? Only saying there is no impact, but that is a lie, i am seeing a lot of decks with oak now.
SC its the onyl faction wich has 2 locks gold cards.
SC has some of the best tutors
SC has the best movements cards
SC has 2 easy cards that gain resilence.
And so on.
So i repeat, there is no big changes because the faction ir already well balanced.
People hate Eldain decks. I get it. If you don't know how to play against it, it may be the most annoying defeats. Honestly I would be having 90+% winrate against Eldain decks.
I commented on Great Oak. It is not a good buff. A good buff should have been provision buff. Power Buff means nothing. I don't see Oak and I didn't see Oak in a long time.
What is so great about having gold lock cards? NG has tons of lock lock and incidentally two gold locks too.
XXX is the only faction which has YYY can be said for all factions.
You say Eldain deck is good and say ST people don't see traps. Come on...
Rather than ineffectively railing more about blatant nonobjectivity in certain comments, let me try to address the issue objectively. I am intentionally leaving NR out of this discussion because they were a deliberate focus of patch 9.0 and because I think more time is needed to evaluate that faction.
1. If one looks at card changes to weak cards in factions in patch 9.0, I agree with the original poser. In fact, I think ST got worse than nothing. Farseer is still far from viable, and elven scribe has gone from playing a niche role to playing no role in any deck of which I can conceive. But I would also argue that none of MO, SK, and SY received anything significant in the patch either. You might see crones and ghouls used more often, but not in top MO decks. The implication that Mardroeme will have SK trampling all comers is absurd. At best Mardrome will play a minor role in a Druid archetype. Probably more significant are changes to Drakker and Sigrdrifa’s Rite, but neither of those cards presently see much play even after the change. Passiflora peaches offers SY another usable card in high coin generating decks, but will not make or break anything. Only NG really benefits from the patch in that magne division has now lost a significant drawback. A frequently played card (only because there was nothing better) has now become a decent card. Yes patch 9.0 should be disappointing to ST players, but it hardly was a big plus to other factions.
2. Regarding the partial expansion, again, I see little really enticing to ST players. Vanadain, without significant new synergies or a substantial buff to the effect of Waylay is unusable. But Francesca — if she survives — is likely game winning. I put her in somewhat the same category as Syanna: impactful but risky. She might not be tier 1, but she will always be meme quality and fun to play. Moreover, I expect both Sorceress and Whisperer of Dol Blathanna to find their way into numerous top ST decks, although mainly for lack of better choices. But despite the farcical Vanadain, on the whole ST cards were not horrible. For example, barring development of new synergies, I don’t expect to see any of the new SK cards used in serious decks once their newness wears off. Not that the cards are bad, but they’re not good enough to build an archetype. The SY cards nicely support a bounty archetype, but, from what I’ve observed, that archetype is less consistent than pirates cove decks. I do think She who knows and witch apprentice will give monsters viable new options (or at least variants). Again NG was probably helped most by a strong bronze combination package that will be autoinclude. Dead man’s tongue is a great thinner and provides good reach, though it does create a tall target. This offsets the difficulty of effectively using Rience, which is probably a weak card — almost in the same category as Vanadain.
3. Regarding the 8.5 patch, I again don’t think ST has anything to complain about. Oak, Neophyte, Munro, and Vrihedd Vanguard are now viable cards. They are not instantly autoinclude, but no buff should be. All can meaningfully contribute in the right context. Other factions also got some great buffs in this patch, but I wouldn’t put them orders of magnitude better than ST’s (except for Whoreson Junior which is now a broken card — the devotion drawback is insufficient given the SY removal available in devotion and the midrangy nature of SY decks reducing need for tutors).
Whether ST got less than other factions in these updates is arguable, but the notion that developers are intentionally and dramatically neglecting ST is not supported by objectively viewed evidence.
I agree with your first two points (also I never said Mardrome is now a broken OP card which can be added in any deck. In a deck built for it with armored units, it can give 11 for 4 with 2 armor units and 12 for 4 with 3 armor units, which are rare to get I agree). When devs see that card and change it and not waylay - and to add insult to the injury, add a card which gives more waylay - was hurtful to see.
But your 3rd point, I want to disagree partly. Munro is still as junk as he was. 12P for that card is overpriced given the nature of how he gets value. Oak buff should have been on provision. 13P is too much for Oak, at least I think so. Vanguard is not suddenly good. It is not unplayable, but still not good. I tried him in my deck and I had to remove him, as he gets horrible value in later rounds and even in R1, he just replaces one value from other engines. Again, it is a welcome change to bring him to 'that is not a horrible card anymore, but not good either' category. Neophyte change we had discussed before. It is a 5 for 4 with a potential +2 from Vernosiel, but who plays Neophyte in R3? It made the strategem not horrible. None of the cards made to any deck. They were all tried and were removed. Ultimately 0 meaningful change to possible/available ST decks.
@InkognitoXI regarding Mardrome, my argument was that, when devs saw that card and thought "we should buff it" and saw Waylay and thought "we should print a new card which adds two of it in hand" was unfair. Mandrome was not a bad card. May be it was not too good too. It had synergy in alchemy/Gydeneth decks. It has synergy with the leader. While 3 armor is hard to come by (except for the Dracoturtle and the Defender) 2 armor is not. Even with 2 armor, it could play for 10 points. While me saying it plays for 12 is extreme, you saying it plays for 6 is also extreme. I am not saying Mardrome shouldn't have been buffed. I am not saying Armor Up shouldn't have been buffed. May be the devs want more people to add this card in their deck. I wish they have the same sentiments with other factions and other cards too.
I still hold to my opinion that in the last two patches ST had close to zero meaningful changes while other factions have got some. Two patches in a row. I felt it was odd and weird.
[...] @InkognitoXI regarding Mardrome, my argument was that, when devs saw that card and thought "we should buff it" and saw Waylay and thought "we should print a new card which adds two of it in hand" was unfair. Mandrome was not a bad card. May be it was not too good too. It had synergy in alchemy/Gydeneth decks. It has synergy with the leader. While 3 armor is hard to come by (except for the Dracoturtle and the Defender) 2 armor is not. Even with 2 armor, it could play for 10 points. While me saying it plays for 12 is extreme, you saying it plays for 6 is also extreme. I am not saying Mardrome shouldn't have been buffed. I am not saying Armor Up shouldn't have been buffed. May be the devs want more people to add this card in their deck. I wish they have the same sentiments with other factions and other cards too.
[...]
The thing with Mardroeme is that for the leader and Scenario it is irrelevant if the card is a 4p or 5p card, while an inclusion of the actual card was never worth it. I am glad if we can agree that this change was not unreasonable.
Waylay on the other hand is the exact same in that the only play it sees is being spawned by the ST Scenario, while it is weaker than Mardroeme being spawned (although having removal as an extender on a Scenario is nice, so for being spawned it is not worse).
I guess they assumed that Vanadain would give enough of an upside to playing Waylay, by adding additional 3pt bodies, which in practice is of course not true, given that Vanadain is incredibly easy to be answered and if answered leaves you with 2 copies of a card you would not want to include in your deck in the first place.
Furthermore one still needs to setup a target with exactly 3 strength to get the 9 for 5, which is too low for all the hoops one has to jump through.
Also yea, the number of changes to some factions, especially ST, was a disappointment.
It does, if you trade multiple cards down against a single card it is playing something insanely vulnerable to it.
And a card that is conditional on getting good value, however puts all of that into creating one large unit, is hardly good.
It is a 6 for 5, which is far below what is acceptable for a 5p card, which can play as a conditional 7 for 5 on a unit with Armor and maybe 8/9 for 5 on a unit with 2/3 Armor.
My argument is that the value is average, while the distribution is as awful as it could get.
Also the example with the ST Echo is not a good one, since I still maintain that Shaping Nature is overpriced and by far the worst Echo.
My point is that cards that do nothing but throw their entire value on a single unit to make it taller are not exactly amazing, given that those make you trade multiple cards down against a single tall punish.
Also give me examples for all of those cards that you refer to with "just make ALL of the cards that go tall 4p, because apparently otherwise it's "not worth it."".
The only examples I could find that would fit that description are Swallow Potion, Adrenaline Rush, Shaping Nature and Garrison, as only those play their entire value onto a single target and unlike Mardroeme those can all be used on 1-2 strength tokens.
Oh wow, Mardro can't be used on 1-2 strength units. That's why it had to be made 4p!
And do I really have to give examples or cards that go tall? And do you really - actually - think only the 4 cards you listed "fit that description"? What about cards like Xavier, Aglais, freaking Gord? What about Mahakam defender? Hamadryad? Vrihedd vanguard? Even Vern commando? and these are just ST units. Gwent has plenty of cards that play into tall punish, so this argument that a 5p card is not worth it because it plays "insanely" into tall punish is just silly.
And saying a card that plays for straight 6 that's very easy to turn into 9 for 5p is "far below what's acceptable for a 5p card" is not any better. What's "acceptable", exactly, for a 5p card? NONE of the ST 5p cards (of which there 28), for example, get anywhere close to 9 pointslam under any circumstances, except the vanguard in 1 very specific conditional deck (why is it not 4p?). Certainly none of the specials get 9, and it's not just waylay. If it's so damn unacceptable, then why none of THEM are getting buffed? There are 27 of them out of 28!
Anyway, the point is, while Mardro may not have been an "amazing" card at 5p, it was certainly not anywhere near the top of the problematic, unplayable cards in gwent. Nor was SK anywhere near the bottom of the meta in the last... um, year? Why was this a priority buff? No, you didn't say it was, but the devs did. The question is: why? Is it because there's some very abstract bigger picture, greater good, master plan we're not seeing from our mere mortal point of view? Or is it because the dev team likes and cares about certain factions more than the others? I'm not answering these questions myself, but I think there's merit in asking them.
