Wild Hunt Rider Should Be Balanced ASAP

[M3e0w]

Forget the Auto-include thing, that's a @rrc issue.

The problem is that the condition is so laughably easy that there might as well be none, and it justifies a 25% increase in strenght. Whereas some other factions equivalent are at 3 strenght but with an actual much more difficult condition.
WH rider either needs a harder condition, provision cost increase or power nerf.

 

[C7Racehead]

I agree with one of the other posters saying that the condition should be met only if the power is "greater" and not "greater or equal to".

I think that's a fair balancing move

 

[M3e0w]

No cause most cards are 3 strenght, and monsters are a big unit faction anyway, that would still be too easy a condition for how much better the unit is, not to mention you could still play it 1st. Would never brick.

I personally think the condition should be to "control the highest unit(but not tie, actually highest) on the field, excluding wild hunt rider".
If you played it with no units on the field it wouldn't summon anything.

That would be fair, so you would actually have to have the highest unit.

If you want a unit that is 25% better then you need to also have the risk that it may brick

 

[Sleeperko]

Wild Hunt Rider is well balanced. It is very much the same concept as Impera Brigade or Blue Stripes Commando. Except that BSC completely sucks in comparison to others.

 

[InkognitoXI]

A card being auto-included doesn't mean it's too strong. It does make decks more boring, but that's no immediate reason to nerf the card.

Let's compare it with other factions (in a vacuum, I know):

Wild Hunt Rider
12 provisions for 8 strength
efficiency: 66,7%

Blue Stripes Commando
12 provisions for 8 strength
efficiency: 66,7% (but has orders)

Mahakam Volunteers
10 provisions for 6 strength
efficiency: 60% (requires a dwarf, but also synergies with other dwarfs)

Skald & Skirmisher (actually not a duo card)
9 provisions for 6 strength
efficiency: 66,7% (requires both cards)

Drummond Shieldmaiden
12 provisions for 6 strength (8 strength - 1 for the damage and -1 for not hitting an enemy)
efficiency: 50%

Impera Brigade
12 provisions for 6 strength
efficiency: 50% (but doesn't have a condition)

Witcher Trio
21 provisions for 9 strength
efficiency: 42,9% (but thins two cards, instead of one)

Looking at the above list, Wild Hunt Rider isn't too exceptional, even though it's the best one.

EDIT: added the other factions too. Every faction has a "duo" card that summon a copy from the deck. Some have better synergies with their deck, while others can be triggered more easily.

That is a really weak way of counting provisions.
Basicly all decks run exactly 25 cards, so you can reduce base provisions by 25*4 (as 4 is the lowest you have to include anyways) and reduce the provision cost of everything by 4, so provison costs range from 0 to 11.
That is a much easier way to look at things and that transformation holds true, as long as you play a 25 card deck.


Wild Hunt Riders are 6-4 = 2 provisions, so you run 2 x 2 provision to get an 8 point swing.

Witchers are 3*(7-4) = 9 provisions for a 9 point swing.

Gernichora + Griffin is 1 Gernichora turn for 7-4 = 3 provisions for an 8 point swing.

Slave Infantriy is a 7-4= 3 provision play to get a 10-x value play (x being the target's power), so 9 for a 1 point target.

Blue Stripes Commando is the same payoff, while not being dead if you do not have the strongest creature, yet require to survive a turn, which is (more often than not) problematic (at least if an opponent (like me) runs Ifrit, Chironex etc).

Mahakam Volunteers is a 2*(5-4) = 2 provision 6 point play, which thins and has next to no conditions to be used (difficult to brick), while having an advantage by being lower base provisions, being the same thinning, thinning 2 of the second lowest provision costs to get an alright power play.

Impera Brigade is a 2*(6-4) = 4 provision 6 point play that is about always droppable, which is more versatile than the others in that regard.

Drummond Shield Maidens do not really count, due to being unplayable trash (at least I cannot think of any proper way right now).

To be fair, aside from the Queensguards, Wild Hunt Riders and Impera Brigade I would not run the other Duo cards (outside of specific decks like the Dwarf, which is actually underestimated under this topic).

Though I agree on it being not too exceptional, too be fair I would even call the Dwarven Duo better, although Dwarf decks are in general horrible, so that does not say a lot.

And to be fair I am already considering to just skip Riders, just like I skipped Witchers in Monsters, the payoff for Riders is not as large as people assume, not to mention that noone can pass Round 1 before turn 3, which means tempo is not that much of an argument, especially when everyone has access to Unicorn and Chironex.
Given the position in this debate I am surprised people are not complaining about them anymore, given that they are still disruption, + 20 power for 18 provisions, auto include in about everything and a lot of utility.

 

[Archpriest]

I agree that this is a very good card. I also agree that, apart form maybe NG, other factions do not enjoy the same thinner/tempo bronze. However, is it too strong? I don't think so. Making it being unable to play on an empty board might be a solution. Maybe...

 

[rrc]

I agree that this is a very good card. I also agree that, apart form maybe NG, other factions do not enjoy the same thinner/tempo bronze. However, is it too strong? I don't think so. Making it being unable to play on an empty board might be a solution. Maybe...

I would say, the condition can be "If you control two Wild Hunt units, then summon a copy from your deck" would be the perfect best solution.

 

[InkognitoXI]

I would say, the condition can be "If you control two Wild Hunt units, then summon a copy from your deck" would be the perfect best solution.

I see, so you say, given that the faction is monsters the card should be burned up untill the point of being completely unusable, given that all other Wild Hunt bronze units are either mediocre (and honestly bad) or straight up unplayable.
And all for the sole reason that monsters cannot have a similar Duo card like Nilfgard and Scoiatel.

 

[Randy-Lahey]

I would say, the condition can be "If you control two Wild Hunt units, then summon a copy from your deck" would be the perfect best solution.

That's such a demanding condition it would eliminate them from the game. It is not a good idea.

 

[M3e0w]

All wild hunt units can provide more value than their provision cost, sure they're pretty underwhelming, but then again... compare them to ST bronze units and suddenly they seem OK.

The only reason Wild hunt bronzes are unplayable is cause all the other monster cards are OP.

 

[Randy-Lahey]

wild hunt units aren't quite unplayable but you don't want to have more than 2 or 3 of them in your deck and you don't really want to play them. this condition would require you to have 2 on the board for your riders to not brick. that would make riders unplayable.

 

[Hybridizati0nn]

Wild Hunt Rider is well balanced. It is very much the same concept as Impera Brigade or Blue Stripes Commando. Except that BSC completely sucks in comparison to others.

Except that BSC is the only one which doesn't suck gameplay-wise. I consider the other two requiring no strategy or thinking whatsoever, which to me equals a boring and bad design. Unconditional cards providing absolutely nothing but points on your side of the board (or in this case thinning and points on the board; all the same in terms of board state) are very uninteresting in terms of gameplay for both players.

 

[InkognitoXI]

All wild hunt units can provide more value than their provision cost, sure they're pretty underwhelming, but then again... compare them to ST bronze units and suddenly they seem OK.

The only reason Wild hunt bronzes are unplayable is cause all the other monster cards are OP.

Not even remotely, that is like saying every engine will be alive, monsters are definitely not always leading in terms of the strongest unit, in which case hound and navigator are just not advancing your boardstate in any noteworthy way and not helping the general strategy either.
Wild Hunt Warrior is just unplayable nonsense, given that it starts at 1 for itself and to be any meaningful damage you already need to have played Hound, Navigator and/or Rider, which makes Warrior completely unplayable, with the suggested change Rider would be a card EVERY monster deck would cap for a good reason, even reducing it to 3 power would leave it better than turning it into a card requiring to play the **** called Wild Hunt Bronze units.
By that logic a lot of cards people would not run, even if they would be 1 provision cheaper (which technicly are point effective) would be playable and they should be shoved down people's throats, simply because you look at them in a vacuum
in which you ignore any interaction and tempo.
Wild Hunt units require too much setup to get going and even then are still unreliable.
You are basicly saying "Uhhh ... Barnabas Beckenbauer can be 2 points ahead of provisions, so everyone should be forced to build around him.", that card is **** because it requires too much investment to get that off and even then it is not worth buidling around, not to mention only it and Saskia support the tripple type nonsense that is a ticket to brick city.

 

[Hybridizati0nn]

Forget the Auto-include thing, that's a @rrc issue.

Actually I think it is an issue. Neutral cards such as witcher-trio, unicorn combo and avallach are in almost in any deck, at least one these. Gets old real quick playing against the same cards no matter what the faction. When something gets very annoying it takes away from the fun and desire to play. So in that sense I'd consider it a problem.

If a faction card is player a lot, it might not be broken but only offering synergies in many types of decks. However if the said card has no obvious synergies in the decks it's used, then it's probably more or less broken.

 

[M3e0w]

No cause most cards are 3 strenght, and monsters are a big unit faction anyway, that would still be too easy a condition for how much better the unit is, not to mention you could still play it 1st. Would never brick.

I personally think the condition should be to "control the highest unit(but not tie, actually highest) on the field, excluding wild hunt rider".
If you played it with no units on the field it wouldn't summon anything.

That would be fair, so you would actually have to have the highest unit.

If you want a unit that is 25% better then you need to also have the risk that it may brick

@InkognitoXI

This was actually my suggestion, not that you should have 2 WH units on board.

However I still think WH is only weak cause the rest of MO is so much better, you can find worse units in all other faction rosters

 

[InkognitoXI]

@InkognitoXI

This was actually my suggestion, not that you should have 2 WH units on board.

However I still think WH is only weak cause the rest of MO is so much better, you can find worse units in all other faction rosters

My bad, though I am not sure about that either, truth be told Wild Hunt Rider is not the monster it is stated to be.
Of course other factions have worse cards than Wild Hunt units and of course those are not played, so i fail to see the point in that comparison.

And the fact that most monster decks run it is due to the fact that we still do not have a large enough cardpool for all too much variance, Gwent's worst problem is the fact that ever until the Midwinter update last year they kept scraping the whole game over and over rather than adding more cards, the lack of expansions is the reason for a lack of variety.

The assumption all cards can be equally good is just undoable, not to mention a lot of cards right now are sleeper cards for potentially expansions.

And besides, all factions, except for Scoiatael, are more or less able to overwhelm monsters, especially if you play cards like Yrden.
It is silly that they even nerfed Scoiatael.

 

[Gen_Liu]

I don't think the card is too strong, however, I do agree that they should NOT work on an empty board.
That's always something that makes me rolls my eyes when I see it (even when I do it myself...I roll my eyes on my own play lol). The card should simply not take itself into consideration for the highest unit.

The concept of the card is to work on your units and board so you always control the highest unit, if the card just summon his friend on an empty board, you're not working on anything, you may as well throw this card in any monster deck and get a guaranteed 8 points whenever you play first....That's a little too easy imo.

 

[pradagy]

i would disagree, I think given the lack of additional benefits that rider provide they are probably just fine. The listing of the available bronze thinners kinda shows it actually plays with no additional benefits.

wild hunt rider: blocked if opponent plays TA, forcing you to expose a big unit early or play low tempo with archespore, the only benefits they give is just proc thrive.

blue stripes procs arbalast + sets up the scout + gives benefits to anything that procs with orders not to mention gains benefits from vandergrift's blade

skald skirm: tempo + discarding allowing easier access to golds + proccing discard engines

mahakam volunteers: gives charges to dwarf mercenery, but is better played in round 3 with marauder carryover admittedly.......imo their only other weakness is that we are in a removal heavy meta so its likely the dwarf needed to proc volunteers will be dead.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

BSC is probably fine. 12p for 8 points. It does have orders but can be buffed with Meve and given Zeal. The downsides of orders are offset by the ability to visit tempo town by chaining it with 4p bronze cards.

Brigade is probably fine since it has no condition associated with it. Less conditions = less value or efficiency. Granted, there are various cards in the pool where this does not hold true. This has nothing to do with Brigade, however, so it's a separate discussion.

Shield Maiden looks more like the SK version of this unit type. If any of the faction thin tools need some love it's probably this card. Hitting your own unit to thin your deck is a terrible condition to satisfy.

I wouldn't consider Skalds and Skirmishers in line with these other tools. They're unique to discard. They allow drawing of a card, unlike the others. So it's not really the same concept.

Volunteers raise a red flag, IMO. Not because the card is bad. 10p for 6 value and 1 thin is not terrible. The issue I'd raise with this card is the fact it's melee locked. Not only does a Dwarf need to be on the board but it has to be on the melee row. Needing a dwarf on the board is conditional enough.

Which brings us to WH riders.... I don't think riders are necessarily a problem. The concern is the condition plays right into MS. They have so much access to tall units the condition may as well not exist at all. Yes, you can block them. No, you can't block them forever. If the ability to mindlessly toss out 9+ power units didn't exist this thread probably wouldn't exist either So, I don't think riders need a nerf. Other areas of MS probably do need a nerf.

And the fact that most monster decks run it is due to the fact that we still do not have a large enough cardpool for all too much variance, Gwent's worst problem is the fact that ever until the Midwinter update last year they kept scraping the whole game over and over rather than adding more cards, the lack of expansions is the reason for a lack of variety.

The assumption all cards can be equally good is just undoable, not to mention a lot of cards right now are sleeper cards for potentially expansions.

I mean.... Yeah, the card pool is limited. It would be far less limited if most cards in the pool were valuable. The balance across the card pool has never been particularly good. Not in CB, OB or HC. It likely never will be either.

 

[Archpriest]

I would say, the condition can be "If you control two Wild Hunt units, then summon a copy from your deck" would be the perfect best solution.

I think that makes it utterly unplayable at the moment. Sorry.