So basically you want to rewrite decades of gaming history? RPG has always been a broad term describing a genre, not just a handful of games. Final Fantasy is an RPG series. Diablo is an RPG series. Elder Scrolls. etc, etc. Many of these have little to no input on story from the player. The misconception is in player choice being a defining trait, when it's not.
The roots of Role Playing Games absolutely have the players choices being a defining trait and CRPGs were designed to emulate the pen and paper experience. Just because the term has been watered down by corpo's wanting to appeal to as large a demographic as possible doesn't take away from the roots of RPG.
Tabletop role-playing game - Wikipedia
Table top games and video games are two different things. Even video games directly based on table tops, Shadowrun, Dungeons and Dragons, etc. have fairly set stories, and have for years.
No, how did you conclude that? What I want us to do is to define what elements defines a RPG and continue our discussion based on a common ground.
This is in point clearly defining my opinion of what a RPG should include.
Are you suggesting that the media controls the definition?
In my opinion there are several "Dungeon and Dragons" RPGs with a non linear story progression. Baldurs gate 1&2, Icewind Dale 1&2, Dragon Age:Origins and Fallout 1&2 to name a few.
How? Unless your definition of 'non linear story progression' is different choices within individual quests. Which is something that CP77 have too btw...
Precisely my point with the example of Skyrim. Sure, you can bounce all over the province, but when it comes down to the actual storyline, it's pretty linear: Train with the graybeards, learn how to defeat Alduin, go to Sovengarde, fight Alduin with the warriors of the past, quest complete. Absolutely nothing alters this series of events.
The topic of this thread is:
WILL CDPR EVER RESPOND TO LACK OF RPG MECHANICS AND LACK OF CHOICES?
(copy/pasted so sorry for the large font)That would suggest that people, including me, in som way or another are of the opinion that the choices or the effects thereof are not enough or have a large enough impact on the gameplay itself to qualify it for being a RPG.
Whether Skyrim has this or not is rather insignificant. Unless of course we are free to make relative comparisons to other games, based on rather loose definitions of qualifying for the RPG genre, then CP2077 would really be in trouble because it would have to stand up to a lot of games with which it has very little in common.
So, are we going to objectively discuss the "RPG elements", or lack thereof, in Cyberpunk 2077 or not?
We are. There's plenty of RPG to it. That's why we're comparing it to other games to show it has as much, and in some cases more, than RPG's that were considered some of the best of the time. Player choice affecting the outcome is a drop in the bucket of what makes an RPG. There's a reason it's such a broad term, and has been for decades.
Yeah, mistaking player choices with narrative choices is the crux of this whole argument.The roots of Role Playing Games absolutely have the players choices being a defining trait and CRPGs were designed to emulate the pen and paper experience. Just because the term has been watered down by corpo's wanting to appeal to as large a demographic as possible doesn't take away from the roots of RPG.
Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a set formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players have the freedom to improvise; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the game.Tabletop role-playing game - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Choices are choices whether it comes from the narrative or from the player agency, and Cyberpunk has plenty of the latter whilst still withholding quite a few of the former (not much less than if any than The Witcher 3 in the main story line, while having quite a few in the side quests as well).
RPG does not begin nor end with narrative, it begins and ends with gameplay and player agency.
There are plenty of roles to be played in Cyberpunk when it comes to gameplay, and quite a few in the narrative as well (Corpo - road to redemption that becomes a Nomad, Nomad lost in the world finding camaraderie with the corps and becoming Corpo, Streetkid looking to become a legend and many more, all supported by the narrative and narrative choices).
Honestly people are just tilting at windmills now with the whole argument about what is and isn't an RPG.
Take a chill pill and play what you enjoy and stop trying to label everything looking for justification of your enjoyment.
The more you look into it - dissect it - the more the magic fades away and enjoyment becomes never ending chase.
Are you saying that since we have choices, set up by the devs, we have player agency?
Reminds me of Ford "You can choose any color, as long as it is black."
The illusion of player agency then. Fair enough, but it does not satisfy me.
Reminds me of Ford "You can choose any color, as long as it is black."
The illusion of player agency then. Fair enough, but it does not satisfy me.
Not all of it is an illusion.
But I was meaning gameplay nonlinearity, it's based on player choices.
Everything from character creation and point distribution to the car you drive and how you approach every scenario whilst listening to your choice in music, they are all choices which RPG games rely on (especially table top ones).
Just like there's a distinct difference between the qualities of Baldur's Gate and Planescape Torment, first is known for really deep gameplay with a generic story whilst the other is known for generic gameplay and outstanding narrative (which is very, very linear), they're both RPG's full of choices.
I honestly don't know what people are arguing about nowadays, the goal posts have been moved so many times that we might as well go in the 4th dimension.
Cyberpunk is an action-RPG, it was never supposed to be anything else, your choices matter (yes there could be more of this, I agree), there's nothing for CDPR to own up to but the lack of optimization and some very amateurish design decisions here and there.
That does not take away from the complex gameplay and the gripping narrative and sub narratives whether you think it's complex enough for you or not, that is not the point of this thread as far as I'm aware, because if so, anything that's not even remotely close to what Star Citizen is trying to achieve will not do for me either, so essentially I cannot be satisfied.
But I was meaning gameplay nonlinearity, it's based on player choices.
Everything from character creation and point distribution to the car you drive and how you approach every scenario whilst listening to your choice in music, they are all choices which RPG games rely on (especially table top ones).
Just like there's a distinct difference between the qualities of Baldur's Gate and Planescape Torment, first is known for really deep gameplay with a generic story whilst the other is known for generic gameplay and outstanding narrative (which is very, very linear), they're both RPG's full of choices.
I honestly don't know what people are arguing about nowadays, the goal posts have been moved so many times that we might as well go in the 4th dimension.
Cyberpunk is an action-RPG, it was never supposed to be anything else, your choices matter (yes there could be more of this, I agree), there's nothing for CDPR to own up to but the lack of optimization and some very amateurish design decisions here and there.
That does not take away from the complex gameplay and the gripping narrative and sub narratives whether you think it's complex enough for you or not, that is not the point of this thread as far as I'm aware, because if so, anything that's not even remotely close to what Star Citizen is trying to achieve will not do for me either, so essentially I cannot be satisfied.
This is muchly true. I suppose it gives the player a diferent way to express themsleves (and the voice actors do a great job on delivering that) but it often has no consequence. I saw a nice YouTube video (for once!), I think OneDragon? I think was some different ways to talk with Panam and Mitch, no consequence in the gameplay but ... actually seriously good performances from the actors.
For some of us, at least for me, it is about venting and seeking affirmation. Of not being alone in this disappointment.
Therefore I perceive it quite rude that these threads, where discussions take place with ifs, ands or buts, get taken over by "regulars" bullying those not of the same mind as them to acquiescence.
You do not need to participate.
Let me, and those likeminded, discuss the failings of CP2077 and our opinions of how it might have been better. Please.
CP2077 was in 2012 announced to be an RPG set within the rules of the PnP RPG Cyberpunk 2020 world. Not a point of contention.
Then be aware that the title of this thread clearly states the wish to discuss the eventual comment from CDPR regarding the perceived lack of RPG elements. And as the OP and I share this opinion, though it differs from yours, we are within the rules of this forum free to do so.
Moderator: Posts deleted. Please, keep it respectful, stay on topic, and do not discuss moderating publicly. Thank you.
If that's how you feel, more power to you, my arguments are not meant to be used as attacks or ''bullying'', I'm trying to show a different perspective, I'm not a ''regular'' that is overly happy with the game.
I found the game engaging, but deeply flawed, to the point I cannot play at the moment, it was miles better at release for me.
There was exactly one line from the director Marcin Iwiński at a live presentation way before the first CGI trailer was released in 2012 about the goals of the projects that even hints at that.
This is not a fair point to hold against the game and the project in general, it was never at any point hinted at having gameplay similar to the PnP, being inspired by the PnP when it comes to gadgets, abilities and cyberware, sure, but have the depth and complexity of it?
While being a cinematic narrative with complex first person narrative scenes, all voice acted and hand crafted from scratch?
Not feasible, never was, never will be, unless we discover a way to procedurally generate such scenes that the quality standards hold up all throughout.
This is what I'm arguing against, it's two sides of the same discussion, you cannot have a discussion without two sides or more, this is not an echo chamber.
I apologize if you think that that was rude of me, but that is how I feel and I think it's fair for both of us to be honest when it comes to it.
Why do you single out CP77 for that when its the exact same for all the other examples listed.
Horizon FW: you can ride the circling Tallneck endless even though the blight should systematically destroy the entire Earth ecosystem. No consequence when you "waste time"
And the same thing can be said for all those games.
I would say CP77 should actually get some kind of praise on having the mechanic where the Relic can randomly act up. I have spent a very good amou t in Horizon now and I have been on spree's of gathering and them buying and dying armors... But the world does not change any bit.
And then H:FW is also one such game where the player character comments on some things. Many games dont even have such events.
Yes, they should. But as stated. How often is it really the case.
Not to mention the more prevalent version of that: Should choices matter to such a degree that the general public is satisfied, given the myriad of little differences that could be done differently in any stage of the game. People often seem to want to have it affirmed that they choose to not kill NPC XYZ at the beginning of the game, or how they choose to pay for something rather than having stolen it.
Probably been discussed to death and no true consensus was arrived at.
As others have mentioned. The ideas seem to vary wildly.
But I agree it would help if something was agreed on, st least if one wants to discuss on if any given element is presented satisfactory, and why one believes so.
Well, I'm not too sure.
They have added many things, apecifically with 1.5 that ideally shouldn't have mattered to be in the game. And they changed a good portion of the 'economy' also.
So I wouldn't say never, there's actually a sight chance some thing may yet change, or be expanded on.
The real question will be: will it satisfy the critics. (Not to say the whiners)
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I agree to this, particulairly on how RPG is often classified anywhere between a player being able to do xyz or allowing activities abc in the gameworld.
It goes back to the concept: what is role play. Since we are talking about RolePlaying a Game character.
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I like this breakdown, because it highlights to me what the classic idea of Role Play should be.
For me it starts out with the narrative of me wanting to play the character with a certain "path" from a given start point to a certain end point.
The 'Corpo, road to redemption' for instance.
Also note that this is a very broad perspective still.
What constitutes as remdemption for the corpo as how you envisioned him/her.
For me, that redemption can be very different.
And then I havent even started about how gameplay elements may restrict or enhance the ability to roleplay a given character while walking that path.
I can still be a corpo working to redeem myself, but do so with the non-compromising element where I shoot everyone who is stopping/ hindering me (Rorschach from watchmen for instance)
Narrative and gameplay give you the story of the path you walk, and how you can walk it.
If you have to justify that you love something, you probably dont love it.
Or chore
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Hmm, there are two sides to this coin. The first deals with whether the game includes RPG elements. I think the only reasonable answer here is yes. The game does include RPG elements. A lot of them. The second face of the coin deals with the implementation of those mechanics. Are they well implemented or not? Regardless of answer, why?
Personal opinion, discussion on the first part above is unlikely to lead anywhere. It can be argued all day whether the game is an RPG, has RPG elements, etc. Chances are this is as far as it will go. Person A insists these are true. Person B insists they are not. Around and around it goes. Discussion on the second part is probably a better path to take.
I think Exxxed is trying to say CP behaves very differently compared to many other RPG's (if I am wrong feel free to correct me). Option 2 detailed above is a good example. The player creates a character, reaches a point in the narrative and is presented a choice. They make a decision. They notice the direction doesn't change. Instead the presentation changes. Stopping here for a second, the player could respond in a couple ways.
1. Become disappointed, think the choice is meaningless and complain about it.
2. Recognize the choice isn't changing the narrative direction but does afford the ability to actively "roleplay" the character, external to the game.
When the presentation changes it's on the player. The mileage is what they make of it. The player must choose to get into the role and roleplay it. The game isn't going to force the issue. This behavior is a deliberate design decision by CDPR. If a player wants this choice to feel important then they must make it so. Allow the illusion to be all consuming, dive into it and make it happen.
I was going for a sightly different idea behind the word, fair enough.
However your breakdown following also reverts back around to what I was saying prior as well.
It seems to me that the common conception is that people feel like the game should actively acknowledge that you made a choice and that the path should diverge narratively. Maybe because a large amount of players arent going too deep into the roleplay aspect by their own choice, but rather want the game to force it based on points were such choice should be made.
For lack of better words... The lazy RP approach.
Even if i consider cp2077 a rpg (mechanically weak but rpg) i have a problem with the approach of "players can do their own roleplaying" to justify this or other games as rpgs.
Take Dishonored as example : you can roleplay based on how you approach your accomplish your target, the world is reactive to your actions,npcs react to your actions and you have branching of the story... i would not qualify Dishonored as a RPG-although is a great game on its own-.