Will Cyberpunk be too Pessimistic about the future?

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Will Cyberpunk be too Pessimistic about the future?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=40YIIaF1qiw#t=2217s

Just watched this debate. I kinda want Cyberpunk to be an inspiring science fiction. I'm not saying that CP2077 should be full of rainbows and butterflies but it should at least have a small glimmer of hope in it.

In the Witcher 2 ending the only thing that was hopeful is 'We're back to where we started except we know this new scrap of info" and it follows the book series but I want Cyberpunk to have different voice.

I was thinking more akin The Legacy of Kain series which had a great ending.

What do you guys think?
 
I expect it to be negative and pessimistic for the most part and at the things that it HAS TO be, but the evils have to be subtle. People living in the first world of a cyberpunk setting should at least believe they are happy in order to allow corporations and governments to get away with the things they do, it would be those conscious of the problems that should be depressed about the state of the world. I also like to some extent the transhuman solutions to human/transhuman problems, good, but I don't like anything that has to do with forced evolution (it doesn't mean you can't talk about it, just don't make it too clear that this is the only/best option). I like what technology offers us when it comes to tools, entertainment... but I'm also cautios in how overdependance on technology might render us morons (fanboyism, some very unfortunate entrances of unneeded technology in fields like education and other simmilar phenomena).

I want to see how technology helps us overcome diseases (both in my cyberpunk and in MY future) while the military uses it to create new diseases and unfair edges in war and the pharmaceutical corps. invent new diseases and they'd rather give you treatment than a cure (ONLY in my cyberpunk, although I know I'll see this in MY future, and I don't like it).

I'm really cautious about the whole "technology is a leveler" line of thought, because not everyone can afford it. It's one thing to have prostheses for the crippled (if someone has to invest money in this because he wasn't born lucky... meh... better when you have universal healthcare, but universal healthcare in a cyberpunk? I want cyberpunk to make people more aware of problems, not to endorse consumerism!) and another thing to have people enhance themselves to a point were competence is more than disloyal (oh, this feeling of deja vu)... I've read that Texhnolyze (an anime I'm planning to give a second chance, it came off as way unbearably angsty the first time I tried) is somewhat about young people that sever their limbs to get cybernetics installed, so... yeah, what's with that? Getting prostheses when you don't need them, shouldn't that be offensive?

The most positive vibe I get from cyberpunk works is when characters get to connect with people with good ideas be it revolutionary or moral, or moments of "there's some beauty still in the world, something to protect".

I also sometimes wonder if those idealized futures where all Earth stands politically united... are really that good. Yay, for world peace but... how exactly is Earth united? Is it like some country is a metropolis of first class citizens and the rest is colonies of lower class citizens? Is lack of conflict that good or are people coerced into thinking the exact same way? I tend to prefer how the structure of the internet bridges people by groups of interest, no matter the frontiers, while NON-VIOLENT conflict creates a dynamic where stagnation is less probable.

I also like a facet of legacy 'Soylent Green' left (not only direct references but that bucket of "Froot" in Futurama) denounce how the economy and market of food work, people don't know what they eat (horse cannelloni -not labelled as containing horse meat, mind you- and other similar scandals) and corporations just think about the benefits and show a complete disrespect for the consumer.
 
No matter how many problems technology fixes, we will always find something else to complain about.

The Hedonistic Treadmill just about sums it up.
 
The Cyberpunk 2020 world, whether you see it as a utopia or as a dystopia, whether you think it's pessimistic or optimistic, has already been in existence for 25 years. So basically, unless Cyberpunk 2077 is going to be set in a completely different world, we already know exactly what it's going to be like. Having said that, since they're not retconning Firestorm and V3 completely - this still remains a bit cloudy at best to me - and they're pushing the world forward 30 some years, it's possible it won't be the same as 2020.

However, they've promised us the same old Night City we've grown to love. That Night City exists in the world of Cyberpunk 2020, and if that's what we're going by, we know exactly what kind of a world Cyberpunk 2077 will be set in.

There's nothing wrong in fantasizing about what you'd like Cyberpunk 2077 to be like, but if it is true to Cyberpunk 2020, then it's pretty much set in stone, and we know what kind of a stone that is. You have to remember Mike Pondsmith is aboard making this game, and it's a world he pretty much created, so it's hard to see why he'd be re-creating it into something completely different.

Hope is an illusion, Bennie. It's nothing but Delta Sierra. Get with the program or book it.
 
I have one more positive thing and one more pessimistic thing.

The positive thing is that cyberpunk technollogy and "transhumanist solutions" allow for forms of fighting that reduce harm (and I SO don't mean drones). Stealth is a substitute to killing everyone in your path... but still some people in this forum prefer Cyberpunk to be brutal and non-lethal to be an optional challenge. See what I mean?

The pessimistic thing is that I don't see entertainment getting better (specially TV). The bread and circuses mentality fits cyberpunk settings where cyborg gladiators provide bloody fun for the whole family. And how is it that these cyborg gladiators seem to have the least flattering implants? It's comon to see their designs include "car grills" surgically sealing the mouths and weaponized limbs that don't look modular... It seems as if they don't have a life other than the arena, like they were slaves...
 

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Clicked on the video. Pretty sure Neil deGrasse Tyson was designing a killer robot in his mind while everyone else was talking.

Wanting sci-fi to avoid being pessimistic is fine because of how wide an umbrella that is, but wanting cyberpunk (in general) to avoid pessimism is a bit like wanting steampunk to avoid steam-powered stuff. It would just turn it into something else. I mean, there's a stickied topic here called "Age of braindance decadence: We didn’t get rid of our problems, we multiplied them," so let's have no illusions about where all of this is going.

However, I'd definitely like it to avoid a constant "this is the future and everyone and everything is bad" vibe. Take Ghost in the Shell, for example. The movies and even the show don't just show constant misery, but also have brief glimmers of human resilience and general goodness. Another example would be the original Fallout, which I just played through recently: there may be plenty of people out to get you and/or who are only thinking of themselves, but there are also surprisingly positive people to be found in the world (like Nicole).

It'd be nice if there's some of that in the game, but I don't see things being optimistic in terms of the technology leading anywhere good, which is what they were talking about in that video.
 
Cyberpunk is about a pessimistic future.......there will be for sure a glimmer of hope and this will be awesome, when the hope grows out of the pessimistic life of our character.
 
I wouldn't want another Witcher 2 ending where I did what I could and solved my own problems but everything else in the world is fucked and I can't do much about it.

While Witcher 1 was a bit too hopeful with Geralt saving the day.

I guess I just want even the possibility of the world getting better or one of those really neutral endings where your interpretation will decide if it's good or bad.
 
I wouldn't want another Witcher 2 ending where I did what I could and solved my own problems but everything else in the world is fucked and I can't do much about it.

Hmm, I liked that about TW2. And I wouldn't say everything was fucked, but rather events were still in motion. CP will likely have broader implications given that in the future we'll all be more globally connected.

I think it's just a matter of them showing glimmers of human spirit and goodness. I can see a scenario where we 'save' the city from corporate manhandling. That would be enough for me.
 
I wouldn't want another Witcher 2 ending where I did what I could and solved my own problems but everything else in the world is fucked and I can't do much about it.

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Sorry man, but that is pretty much one of the defining concepts of the original game... you are small fish, even if you get bigger, they just move you to a larger pool where you are the little guy again.

Mike Pondsmith said it himself, "Cyberpunk isn't about saving the world, it's about saving yourself!"
 
Hmm, I liked that about TW2. And I wouldn't say everything was fucked, but rather events were still in motion. CP will likely have broader implications given that in the future we'll all be more globally connected.

I think it's just a matter of them showing glimmers of human spirit and goodness.

W2 just has it's own thing going on and Cyberpunk should be different.

I was hoping some almost futile hope that the world will get better because of your actions. There are always individuals who are good but if the world is fucked up then it'll still be shit.

I can see a scenario where we 'save' the city from corporate manhandling. That would be enough for me.

That'd be too much for me actually. I imagine something like the people can see the true enemy and it's up to them now to fight it and you're just out of commission or some weird V for Vendetta shit I don't know.

I just don't want it to be too much like W2 or W1.
 
What I'm hoping for is CDPR using those "lighter" moments of hope, success or good will as a way to describe the contrasts in CP2077 dystopia or to underline the dark, grimy reality.

There is no darkness without light. Night City might use some Day light to bring forward the bad and the ugly of it even more efficiently.
 
That'd be too much for me actually. I imagine something like the people can see the true enemy and it's up to them now to fight it and you're just out of commission or some weird V for Vendetta shit I don't know.
That's why I chose the 'show the plain truth to people' ending in DE:HR. Yes, the game allows you to reload the game and see every one of them... but it's the fantasy of it. I ended my first playthrough with this one and I didn't make the decission lightly, I felt like I was giving the game closure with all the information available to me in that playthrough in mind.

And isn't Pondsmith's quote aplicable to saving yourself from becoming a person impervious to the suffering of others?
 
I think that pessimism is inherent to cyberpunk as a setting. To explore that further, you have to think about why cyberpunk exists. The original cyberpunk authors, Bruce Sterling, William Gibson and others saw a stale genre of sci fi, with everyone hopeful and optimistic about how great all the things are gonna be with all this wonderful technology. They were kinda pissed. If you want to look further into what they were saying at the time, Bruce Sterling was the secret author of Cheap Truth, an underground newsletter about the movement as it happened back in the 80's (found here: http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/~erich/cheaptruth/ ).

Cyberpunk has a philosophical origin. These guys were sitting on the verge of the digital revolution in a world full of problems, and saw a world where a rapid advance in technology wasn't going to save it, and, infact, would magnify its problems. What if information, due to this big digital revolution, could be collected in infinitely smaller places in higher quantities, and would be stored by governments in computers that only they have access to? What happens to our privacy? What if the rich don't have the interest of the masses in mind exactly? What if technology wasn't distributed evenly, and they got the majority of the advantage?

Cyberpunk paints that world, with "high tech, low life". If you want a more optimistic game, with silver linings abound, you don't actually want cyberpunk. It's way more than just a visual style, a kind of music, a haircut or an RPG. It's a philosophy built by the men who saw the digital revolution and weren't happy about where their world was going.
 
Sorry man, but that is pretty much one of the defining concepts of the original game... you are small fish, even if you get bigger, they just move you to a larger pool where you are the little guy again.

Mike Pondsmith said it himself, "Cyberpunk isn't about saving the world, it's about saving yourself!"

right he also often said you can become strong but you will never be a super hero
 
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