Witcher 2 = Arcade "RPG"?

[johnblah1231]

Witcher 2 = Arcade "RPG"?

Hi,1st of all i loved (and still do) theWitcher1, which was one of the best RPGs light ever.Of course i cant wait for the witcher2 release, as i wait for it since playing through the witcher1 for the first time.now on eurogamer.de i read a preview of the witcher2 and from what i read im rather dissapointed.well in the preview they state that the control scheme has been totaly remade and they had to use a !!!joypad!!! to play it!?? then after some action sequences they got to a huge boss they had to finish off with... here it comes..quick time events!?!!?! after i read the preview i rather thought this was a preview for devil may cry rather then witcher2... and yes, to my amazment they tested the PC version of the game.well i dont give up my hope, as CDPR has never dissapointed me so far - but from the preview alone it seems as the game has been downgraded for the casual gamer. i really hope this is not true - the worst thing about mass effect2 (for me) are the action sequences which make the whole leveling unnecassery - after playing through mass effect2 i didnt die even once! (on normal) - Please CDPR - make this an "RPG light" like the first one, not an action game with quick time events masked as an RPG (like mass effect) - Pleeeaasssee..

 

[Flash]

CDPR is using joypads on presentations because it's comfortable. It's hard to walk on the scene, talk about the game and move Geralt with mouse and keyboard in your hands. Computers for presentation have joypads, but TW2 is currently developed for PC only with console versions planned in future. It's not even a simultanious development. Keyboard and mouse is still primary controler.QTE is controversial subject. Some people like it, other hate it, but none of them actually saw it in game beside one boss battle. It doesn't have to be bad. We know nothing about it.

after playing through mass effect2 i didnt die even once! (on normal)

Bioware has unusual difficulty naming. "Normal" is meant for infants, "hardcore" should be "normal" and "insane" should be "hard".There are two possible ways of controling characters in combat:- First is "click and forget" known from BG, NWN and DA:O. In such system you only select skills from time to time.- Second is direct control of character moves. The extent of control can vary from minimum in TW1 where you only repeat clicks to continue attack sequence, to systems which give more freedom like Assassins Creed, Jedi Academy, Batman AA.What we see in TW2 previews is combat mechanics modeled after Batman Arkham Asylum. While it isn't RPGish system, it definitely is one of the most interesting combat mechanics ever made. Of course there are "oldschool" RPG fans which prefer "click and forget" system from DnD games but this is not this kind of game. People who like to control the way player character moves are pleased with Batman mechanics.

 

[johnblah1231]

thanks for the answer. i read the joypad "issue" in the unofficial FAQ, sadly i posted earlier and read the "for demo purposes" answer too late.still i find from the looks of it, the game goes too much the arcade way.hope there will be an option (like in the first one - where you could change the views) to make the steering more RPG like - anyway even if not, it would be fine for me as long as:being a skillfull shooter/action gamer DOES NOT give you a huge adventage over unskilled players.(so even if you play like a god - you shouldnt be able to kill a dragon on level1)remove the quick time events, this stuff has nothing lost in an RPG (hating all the new mini-game mania in games nowadays) -minigames is ok, as long as its optional. - but dont, please dont use QTE, this is the most stupid invention in games for a long time (thinking about resident evil5 - where i played on hard without dying once through the whole level and died 5 times in the QTE at the end of the stage, ruining my statistic ;( )also there is no satisfaction defeating a boss, because one is fast at pressing the right buttons appearing on the screen! for me the satisfaction comes from a good strategy/good character skills and the potions i brew before a fight, not from pressing buttons like a lemming!from what i read in the preview once again, even with the explenations here it seems to me like they are sacrificing a good game for the casual gamer. please dont turn one of the greatest games around into a super mario with stats. (which are probably just for the looks of it and are good for nothing - looking to mass effect2 here once again - even on level1 i probably would finish off the last boss without problems)as for bioware difficulty, yeah youre right with mass effect - but dragon age was quite challenging even on normal (not the addon - they took out all the challenge there and so it was only half the fun of the original game)

 

[Flash]

Some people soloed DA:O with only main character. I wouldn't call it challanging. There are mods where players increase enemy health by 20 times, apart from many other tweaks to find some challange ("Evaluation of Difficulty Settings with CT" topic on Nexus)

being a skillfull shooter/action gamer DOES NOT give you a huge adventage over unskilled players.(so even if you play like a god - you shouldnt be able to kill a dragon on level1)

You won't kill strong enemies on level 1 unless there will be unpredicted exploits in game mechanics. You won't kill strong enemies because unlike in most 'modern' cRPGs, DA included, TW2 doesn't feature level scaling.As for QTE, too much of it is a great pain. I'd go as far as saying that whole Assassins Creed combat system is nothing else but one huge QTE. Wait for enemy to act and in a split second press correct button. Personally I don't like it at all. Still, in TW or any other game, I can't imagine presenting a realistic/believable fight against a 30ft tall monster just by whacking him with a sword. No matter how strong and skilled a man is, he can't match with such opponent. In this case I find QTE a reasonable way of presenting special moves, specific only for this one battle. You have to hold on to a big tentacle, plant a bomb in monster's mouth or something like that. Such moves are not available when fighting regular monsters or humans. It is logical isn't it? A huge monster can crush you with one hit and you have split second (just an example, we don't know how it works) to perform a special move. This of course will be a rarity reserved for big bosses. At this point we know only of one such battle.

 

[username_2064020]

I must admit it: so far the new combat system is my only concern about this game.I always tought that the old one was the major flaw in the game, and I'm wondering if developers will be able to find a more compelling formula.So far I'm not exactly sold with combat in new trailers, but it's a work in progress, so we will see.

 

[Seeker.217]

I must admit it: so far the new combat system is my only concern about this game.I always tought that the old one was the major flaw in the game, and I'm wondering if developers will be able to find a more compelling formula.So far I'm not exactly sold with combat in new trailers, but it's a work in progress, so we will see.

This You Tube Vid of TW2 Demo at E3Talks a bit about the combat system.

 

[Eri94_user70]

Hello! Right now, combat system is under development, but you get the idea, how it will look like. We may apply some fixes and changes. Please also note, all movies which are available, are showing Geralt at the very low level of his sword-skill. Not all moves are final, and we don't want to show them yet.Let's make it clear once again - The Witcher 2 never will be action RPG, nor arcade-style fighting game. It's been designed as a story-driven, pure-blooded RPG and it will remain the same ;-)

 

[Hiver.147]

Hello! Right now, combat system is under development, but you get the idea, how it will look like. We may apply some fixes and changes. Please also note, all movies which are available, are showing Geralt at the very low level of his sword-skill. Not all moves are final, and we don't want to show them yet.Let's make it clear once again - The Witcher 2 never will be action RPG, nor arcade-style fighting game. It's been designed as a story-driven, pure-blooded RPG and it will remain the same ;-)

Hello Alek,Its very good to see you guys talking about it like you do but, stuff like those qte cutscenes in fighting that monster do not look as being on the same track.If the general excuse to include them is that fights like that would be hard won by sword alone - we all know Geralt has more skills at his disposal: magic, alchemy (bombs), help of other NPCs, ranged combat and ability to use the environment. You guys know it can be done without qte cutscenes and done in a way that will be much more satisfying and serious and even "epic".I hope you will change this or at least keep such features for console versions where it belongs.-edit-I just watched thishttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL_mMSnIadoIts much better then i thought it might be when i heard about qte moves.Alternative ways of finishing it is great and i like that how good you are against it depends also on the knowledge about this monster that you collected before.Great news about no auto-scaling of enemies!

 

[johnblah1231]

@alek_thanks for the answer, now i can sleep a little less worried ,)a suggestion for the QTE - how about this: if the monster has 0HP - a cutscene/animation starts where gerald heroicaly takes the life of the monster (like in DA:O) instead of quick pressing buttoms at the right time?

 

[alalzia]

I understand that G is low level but in an interview CDPR guy clearly described button mashing , if this is not arcade then what is ?http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/109/1098720p1.html (push button retardely section ) Also the requirement to keep both hands on mouse/keyboard isn't very appealing and it is discriminating against us smokers (not to talk about the timer on dialogues which does suck dwarf cocks by the way)

 

[Flash]

Then how do you call TW1? Press LMB, press LMB, press LMB, press LMB, press LMB, .... It isn't a left mouse button mashing? How come more control of combat moves equals button mashing? Is Batman AA a button masher? Is every combat system other than DnD's "pause, click and forget" system a button masher? It seems that you disregard everything that doesn't work like d20 dice from Baldurs Gate/NWN and its clones like DA:O.

 

[Mothra]

i must again point to demons souls, an rpg with an awesome and rewarding fighting system (but a bad control scheme - which should be no problem for kb/mouse) so I know that you can pull it off with style rather than with random clicking while not succumbing to an streetfighter4 complexity that is dominated by skill rather than using the right tools/alchemy/talents. He clearly spoke of block/riposte in the demonstration so that's certainly something you can sink your teeth into or you could just concentrate on the story and forget the fighting on easy.

 

[topeira]

i agree with mothra. these days im playing FABLE, yeah the first one, and fable's system is very basic - left click - attackright click - block. hold block + direction = rollmiddle mouse click - flourish.hold shift + left click\right click - magic. that's it. very simple. however the combat IS pretty fun and requires skill. it isnt complicated and easy to learn. if a game have difficulty settings it can make a combat simple on easy so those who want the stats to play for them can have it, and it can be rewarding on HARD where u must use the tools u r given (block, parry, dodge, counter etc). the combat system is Batman: Arkam asylum is a great example - if u want u can just click "attack" repeatedly and "counter" when attacked and that's it, or u can use all the combat moves batman could do (dodge, batarang, grabs, throughs, instant takedowns, tools etc) and make the combat more satisfying and more effective on harder difficulty settings. i already suggested that the combat can use 2 different AI systems - 1) where the AI counters, blocks, dodges and so is the player if he wants to survive, and 2) a system where the AI barely dodges but occasionally blocks and the players blocks are a part of his "blocking" stats and done automatically.

 

[alalzia]

Then how do you call TW1? Press LMB, press LMB, press LMB, press LMB, press LMB, .... It isn't a left mouse button mashing? How come more control of combat moves equals button mashing? Is Batman AA a button masher? Is every combat system other than DnD's "pause, click and forget" system a button masher? It seems that you disregard everything that doesn't work like d20 dice from Baldurs Gate/NWN and its clones like DA:O.

Timed clicks are one thing"Occasionally the boss would switch up its attack pattern, spitting at Geralt and pinning him to the ground. To break free, you have to slam a button repeatedly"". After three tentacles were removed Geralt had the ability to jump up onto the creature's limbs and swing around the environment. Holding on required Geralt to again hit a button repeatedly, which eventually guided the tentacle into a nearby stone bridge"Those are another .Erm, i consider playing bioware's games an insult to my intelligence .

 

[Mothra]

you are talking about a big endboss where special moves are applied. They even said parts of the fight are optional or don't even open up if you ignore them. This will not be the case with all the other combat in TW2 afaik. They wanna give us real big monsters so the "normal" fighting would look out of place. the monster won't care if you use strong or fast style on it. So I guess it's ok if they do cutsequences....the QTEs are not necessary imo, you could just let us hit the button once and have the animation play to get free, the RPG-ing and levelling before is what should have an impact (like collecting knowledge about the monster, getting the wizard to help you). I don't think this will apply to all fights, e.g. the Zeugl - fight in TW1 would be awesome with the new system where you could dodge his tentacles much better. I won't be too worried if they give us good fights like against the Kochey or Azar.

 

[frontl1ne]

I am fine with event triggered button mashing, there's nothing wrong with that. Unacceptable button mashing is that of Castle Crashers on Xbox 360 and Diablo 2 where every combat situation revolves around repeatedly spamming one button.

 

[topeira]

i agree with a lot of what was said - the old school RPG way of clicking the mouse on enemies without any skill into defense or how castle crashers was done - that's a very shallow and un-involving way to treat combat. the more control u have over the character the more u feel u r him and less u feel like u are someone telling what to do. not to mention i feel more involved and challenged in trying to close a pop up window than in clicking monsters in an RPG. same skills involved but these pesky pop ups sometimes run away from my mouse....note to self - reinstall anti virus....also the closer the camera to the hero is, the more u feel like that hero or inside that worldd. in the "up in the sky" camera of traditional RPGs u feel like u are observing the action and not being IN IT .as much as Tomek is trying to say "we are not an action RPG btu an RPG RPG" it looks like TW2 is indeed an action RPG and i am SO fine with that. the more control i have over geralt the more i will feel satisfied with the outcome of battles. if I AM the one who's causing geralt to block and dodge and attack at the right time the more i feel heroic and skillfull. if the stats are doing it for me than i will feel like im not worthy of any credit. leveling up should increase the damage of attacks or size and shape of magic etc but blocking and dodging should be a part of MY skill and not the computers. if i see an attack coming at geralt than i want to block it. if geralt is NOT blokcing it himself cuz his stats are too low than i will be annoyed. as i said in my other thread - the game should have 2 different difficulty sliders - game world and combat, so it caters to action and rpg fans alike. players who want the stats to play FOR them can set the combat to an easier level and be done with it. when i play shooter games i set it to the highest difficulty settings cuz i love that type of hard core challenge. when i play a racing game i set the driving assists ON cuz i dont want THAT kind of hard core challenge. if i win races too easily than i will up the difficulty of the drivers, not the game assits. i change the games mechanics to my taste depending on the game so ppl who want to play TW2 as an RPG shouldnt feel bad cuz they changed the game to easy.

 

[Thoric]

I was quite happy with the way the combat system was being developed in RoTWW. From what i've seen from TW2 it looks completely scrapped for a more arcadish approach. Wouldn't mind a combat featurette.

 

[Flash]

RotWW combat was inspired by Assassins Creed. TW2 combat is inspired by B:AA. Just my opinion but combat in Assassins Creed is more arcadish, casual, simple and easy than in B:AA. Enemies could just as well stand in queue to player's character and wait for being slaughtered without any effort.

 

[topeira]

RotWW combat was inspired by Assassins Creed. TW2 combat is inspired by B:AA. Just my opinion but combat in Assassins Creed is more arcadish, casual, simple and easy than in B:AA. Enemies could just as well stand in queue to player's character and wait for being slaughtered without any effort.

B:AA is way WAY too "gamy". it doesnt make any sense in a realistic point of view and has it's weird internal logic that only fits a game. like - a counter (which is the only way to block) doesnt do any damage although it looks like a few punches, BUT at the end of combat u can kill the last enemy with a counter.or that grabs and throws are not possible unless u accumulate a combo. how does that make sense?! batman is too weak to lift someone unless he punched some dude 4 times and suddenly he's strong?!or that every enemy falls over after 3 hits, no matter what?or that enemies never block or there are enemies that always block (knives)? all the mechanics in BAA are so artificial and makes no sense if u look at them in a realistic POV. it all serves the purpose to encourage players to get higher combos. and all the dodging and batarangs and such are mostly meant to prolong the combo and not for a purpose on their own.i hope CD wont take too much inspiration. what i absolutly loved about the BAA combat system was the fact that the player needs skill to block hits since blocking is timing sensitive, and also the combos that make u accumulate damage, llike in FABLE. AC1 has a great combat system - u can block but enemies use "defense break", u can counter but it's timing sensitive and enemies have slower attacks to throw u off. u have normal attacks and power attacks. all UBI had to do is ADD to the AC1 combat in AC2 and make strong attacks go THROUGH the block and make ALL enemies have the ability to grab, throw, counter and dodge and not do this stupid move where only specific enemies do specific moves and remove defense-break and grabs. AC1 system was brilliant if the AI only attacked more often. in AC:Brotherhood they seem to make the AI attack often but im sure they wont bring the other points i mentioned back. a pitty.