I wish players could just play the games and stop thinking about genres. There are good games and bad games, and too many games were deemed bad only because they don't fit subjective genre definition.That said, gerne is still important for developers because they need to decide what game they want to make.
Constantly I see The Witcher being a victim of that. Some dismiss it because you can't customize the player character (name, appearance, gender, etc.), some dismiss it because Geralt doesn't bring a party to battles, some dismiss it because of it supposedly being an "action-RPG" / because of the combat, and I'm sure for a whole bunch of other reasons. This might lead them to not try the game at all or actually make it impossible for them to enjoy it if they do.But yeah, better combat for TW2 = excellent. I don't care if it gets labled a mindless action-RPG (which it will be by some people) or whatever, I just want to play a great game.Flash said:
I'm making a value judgment on the game, not the genre. ME2 is a casual game, TW is a hardcore game. It's the same way I'd label Tekken as a casual fighting game, and Street Fighter as a hardcore fighting game.Flash said:
@ slimgrin Good point,now here the kicker to me there OK game but would not call them hard core for me it would be the MK game The first ones) and I'm hoping the new one goes back to the root of the first games.The point Just because I may not agree with slimgrin dose not mean he dose not know what he is talking about For me the ME games where good played them more time then I can remember I took them for what they where and not compare them to any other of my favorite games This is like the old Star Trek vs the New Star Trek debate lol
@SeekerI'm interested in knowing YOUR views on ME2 with regards to how much of a rpg it was.If this continues, soon every game will become an "rpg". After all, you do role play in almost every game.I agree that we should play and enjoy games irrespective or genres. But that doesn't mean we can compare games of two different genres, or for the sake of comparision, pass a game of one genre as belonging to another. Just as we cannot compare Crysis to Witcher, or we cannot compare Dirt 2 to Witcher, we cannot compare ME2 to Witcher, for the **** simple reason that neither Crysis, nor ME2 are rpgs. I love Crysis, and I thought ME2 was a decent game too. But I never compare them to rpgs because you just can't compare games from cross genres.ME2 might be a more"fashionable" rpg, appealing to a wider shooter crowd, but it sure as hell isn't a true rpg. Even Bioware said they wanted to make ME2 first and foremost a shooter, with rpg elements. Just check their press releases if you're in doubt. And still, it's the fans who incessantly keep calling it a "new-age", "improved" rpg.Classification is not important when you're playing a game. It should not matter what genre a game is for you to enjoy it. But if you're offering comparisons, or critical appreciation, you need to be mindful of the classifications as well. If we don't, very soon even Gears of War (a game I love BTW) will become an "rpg".
Hmm as far as not being able to compare games that fall under different genres I'd like to ask why not? A quality game is a quality game. Of course you can't say one game is a better RPG than a different game if both games aren't RPGs to begin with, but you CAN say one game was better than another even if they are in two different genres. If the game was well made and you felt you got your moneys worth out of it then yes, you'd say it was a better game than one you did not enjoy. Usually the qualities that make a great game, a great game, apply to all genres. It applies to the philosophy: 'In order to go forward you must first go backward'. And secondly, I'm interested in just what, exactly, the consequences would be if people were to consider Gears of War to be an RPG? You left us hangingVilgefortze said:
Hahah, I think it's very amusing. Yes, indeed, on the BioWare forums the Witcher isn't "really even an RPg!11!!1" and you're pretty dumb if you liked it. Heck, you have no say in anything regarding DAO or DA2 if you liked the Witcher. Your opinion is worthless. After all, you don't even know what a RPG is.Kinda like what's going on here. ME2 is a roleplaying game with shooter elements (and BG is a roleplaying game with turnbased combat - the combat itself has nothing to do with whether the game is or isn't a RPG). Call of Duty Black Ops is a first-person shooter (it's not called an RPG even though you are in the role of Mason/Hudson and there's the occasional non-combat scene..)Baldur's Gates (et cetera) had a lot of combat too. Sometimes as much/more so than ME2. Being turnbased does not a game RPG make. And to reverse my Jedi wisdom, having real-time shooter combat does not ME2 a worse RPG game. TW1 actually had kind of similar combat, now that I think about it. At least it was a lot closer to ME1&2 than BG.While making snide remarks about the games of other developers is cute (and seems to be instinctual...) I don't think it's necessary, at all.Cyberfrog said:
I quote Greg Muzyka
Hard to see what was their intended audience?The main point of being an rpg is to develop the character you're playing as. And characters are not always "Paragon" or "Renegade". There is a gray area in between where most characters lie. Situations are not always about choosing between "good" or "evil", but about the element of choice itself. That includes not only the choice to do good, do evil, but also the choice to walk away and not do anything if you're not sure what exactly to do. The option of staying neutral.Choices need not always be "paragon" and "renegade". Sometimes you have to make a decision to choice what YOU think is right,and let time be the judge of whether it was what you should have done or not, without the game telling you explicitly that this is the "evil" or the "good" decision to make. That is the essence of role playing.You are sent off on a quest by someone who promises you a lot of reward. You need the money. After you complete the quest and return, you find that the person who promised you money is very poor, and refuses to pay. You on the other hand, need the money desperately, and you've held your end of the bargain perfectly. What do you do? What choice is "paragon" here. Of course it's about being the nutter who refuses a reward and walks away. But if you refuse to just walk away and demand compensation for your services, does that make you "renegade"? ME2 will probably say so. But is "good" or "bad" the prime consideration, or is it "personal choice" and "practicality"? There is only so much that a genetic offshoot can veer off from the parent genome before being called a separate species itself.I've nothing against shooters. Some of my most favourite games ARE shooters. And I think there can be excellent rpg shooters as well. ME1 was going the right way in that, and I had high hope for ME2. But....And as for Bioware, while I do not agree with certain "trends", it still remains the creator of some of the best rpgs I've ever played. I quite like some of the more recent *proper* rpgs they released. I loved DAO (without the expansions/DLCs etc). However I do not subscribe to the idea that most fanboys do that "whatever is Bioware is good."I might post back later if I find the article where Bioware officially states ME2 was a "shooter with role-play elements" and not a "role playing game with shooter elements". But otherwise, this might be the last I post on this topic. This has been discussed numerous times in many places and it never gets anywhere solid. I doubt this thread will reach any groundbreaking conclusions either.
Hehe, and Dragon Age Origins was marketed with the infamous "Violence" trailer. You know - gore, sex and "This is the new sh*t". Whoever that marketing was reaching out to, does it lower the quality of the game?So even with its hybrid nature, ME2 is more a shooter (with a dialogue system) than an RPG, I completely agree. Doesn't explain why its fans apparently deserve ridicule.
I think you got your facts mixed up, no one is ridiculing people for what they like.It's saying ME2 is an rpg, 10% rpg elements at most do not make an rpg.To say a game is an rpg means the game must have at least 40% or 50% rpg elements in the game.What you consider the best game is a different matter as it is not comparing two games of the same genre.If you like to compare which is the best game in the same genre then you should judge TW1 with DAO and not ME2 as that is not in the same category.
I like how people have genre gauges that measure RPG percentage in games. I'd like to have one too. I wonder whether Fallout 2 is an 100% RPG or not. It has turn-based combat after all. Maybe it's a turn based tactical game like X-COM series or Jagged Alliance. But, on second thought, I don't really care.
Stricly speaking, I didn't say anyone did. It's mainly the elitist attitudes you see everywhere that bothers me.fchopin said:
For now ignoring the fact that I don't care which is "best" all that much (I like all three), this clearly isn't "objective truth". To other people, as we have seen many examples of, TW1 does not deserve to be seen on equal footing with DAO. DAO is this classy epic story with great characters and wonderful tactical party-based combat, while The Witcher is a piece of crap action game with a preset character and not a real RPG (not my opinion, but I'm sure you've heard it). Holding one game above another like that (often complete with the attitude that if you disagree, you're not "hardcore" enough), really gets us nowhere.The Witcher 2 seems to be doing well on preorders. Hey, it may even bring in some people who are playing an RPG for the first time. Are they as welcome here as self-titled "hardcore" RPG players? I would sure hope so.
Why do you hide behind other people?I am not interested what other people say, only what each person says.If you think DAO is better than TW1 then just say so, no one will criticise you.But stop using excuses about what other people think, you can only talk for your self and no one else.
I am not interested what people say on the Bioware forums because we are on the CDPR forums.I visit the Bioware forums regular so know what some people think.There are many posts for TW1 and TW2 on Bioware forums and overall the games get good comments from posters and developers.
Lol my thoughts exactly, Flash. I'm a little suprised how many people seem to have been raised in a box. I asked earlier what the consequences would be if one were to consider a game that doesn't fall under the RPG category to be an RPG and got no response. Perhaps because such things are opinionated and in the end do not matter? It's obvious CDPR has a passion for making great games that they themselves (being gamers) enjoy playing, which means they produce high quality games that you rarely see now days (where most companies care more about profit than quality). I don't think it matters what genre of game CDPR attempted to make, as long as they had the same passion as they've had for the Witcher games it'd still be just as high quality. My point being? Genre doesn't make a great game, a great game. Being 100% RPG or 100% shooter or a hardcore RPG or shooter doesn't make a great game, a great game. Having developers that care about their product and have a passion for making great games, makes great games.Flash said:
fchopin, Suffice to say if I wasn't a Witcher fan, I wouldn't care how people here treat eachother. It is my sincere wish that people in this community will be able get along with gamers who are fans of The Witcher (2) AND DAO, of The Witcher AND ME, (etc.), of RPGs AND other genres. If that is too much to ask, then why?Aren't we supposed to be mature gamers?I know these were some crazy preachy first posts. I apologize for that. However, my intentions are good.
The OP has a point, although I really did use all features available in the game.In RPGs the story really has to be main focus, although I think gameplay has to be great too. There's a reason why players go for all the possibilities of character builds, the most tough optional bosses, max level, etc in some rpg games. Their gameplay is great. I really like what I've seen in TW2 so far. It seems to me that CDPR has no fear in mixing elements from other genres for gameplay while "roleplay" and story - what RPGs are about - remains their way and better than ever. I loved the stealth, the big battlefield and the new combat mechanics in the demos, and I hope it has even more different elements during the game. It brings more variety and fun, while every level remains unique and gives a good sense of mixing environment and gameplay. This is what RPGs should be and I why I praise Bioware's courage on the Mass Effect franchise (I did not like the changes in DA2 though). There's a reason why I played the first game 3 times and the second 5 times. And it wasn't to see the different choices.
@ Vilgefortze what I think of ME2 it a action game with rpg element end of story