Witcher 3 -also- had a lot of issues. CDPR fixed them. They will this.

[Luther_Vandrass]

Yes, after promising us it'd be a full-blown RPG for years, and almost up to release.
As I said: the 11th hour.

Yet another dick move.

I think y'all are looking way too deep into that, it could have just as easily been a marketing move to capitalize off of the hype, which I'm sure was beyond even their expectations. The game, at the end of the day, is as much of an RPG as The Witcher, arguably a little more so given it's combat and encounter design is more open to experimentation by the player.

 

[Zirotin]

Hello CD Projekt Red! I'm here to tell you, "Hold on, baby." I want to inform you that I am going to buy cyber punk 2077 from GOG after February to support your hard work and take part in this adventure that you want to share with us. I think it is important for me to send you this message because I am one of the silent majority that does not like to make any comments on the Internet. I still believe in you, I wish your entire team happy holidays and good health to sort out this situation!

 

[Ðarkstar]

I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna lie, some of you in here sound straight up delusional with your expectations. Now, clearly, CDPR fucked up MASSIVELY with the release of this game, and the current state of it is disappointing as all hell, but even still, some of y'all need some perspective.

CDPR is a eurojank studio. Maybe not the jankiest, but it's still there. This is only their FOURTH major game, and their first was literally built off the back of a mod.

Even if most of the cut content was in the game, the game would still be a mess. This expectation that the experience as a whole would be on par with a linear game in terms of polish and balance is frankly absurd. The shooting was pretty much always going to be fairly subpar. The enemy AI was not going to be top of the line. The level design and options were never going to be as extensive as Deus Ex. The driving was never going to be as good as a dedicated racer. There were going to be abrupt endings to quests, some things no matter what were going to feel rushed or unfinished or "off". The pacing was likely never going to be perfect. There were going to be balancing issues and seemingly superfluous and half-baked systems/mechanics.

No matter what CDPR said, this game was never going to be released in as polished of a state as a Rockstar game, because CDPR is SIGNIFICANTLY less experienced than Rockstar as a studio (they're also smaller).

CDPR was NOT going to reinvent the wheel. The game was going to come out on last-gen systems, so that alone should have shut down any thought that this game was going to be a groundbreaking, next-level game, head and shoulders above ANYTHING else released that entire generation, as if somehow CDPR were able to tap into something that no other studio had had the ability to tap into and exploit to create a genre defining experience.

And yes, CDPR presented the game as such, but even still, if you had any sense at all you would not be so gullible as to take everything said at face value or as an absolute truth. CDPR is, for all intents and purposes, a young studio who were clearly still high off of their biggest success yet, one that performed well beyond anyone's expectations. They likely thought they could do pretty much anything at that point.

When something seems too good be true, especially when it comes to gaming, it is. Full-stop, it'll never look nor feel how it does in your head. That's simply the nature of it. Game programming is an incredibly complex process that has (significant) limits, and thus limitless ambitions will never come close to fruition.

CDPR could still turn this into a great game, maybe not necessarily the one people wanted or hoped for, but a great one none the less. Maybe not the greatest game of all time, but it doesn't have to be.

Again, excusing CDPR for misleading consumers and whitewashing the general consensus that this game is surprisingly mediocre isn't something people should be doing.

You want a better game right? Like the rest of us? So stop defending them.

Post automatically merged: Dec 15, 2020

I think y'all are looking way too deep into that, it could have just as easily been a marketing move to capitalize off of the hype, which I'm sure was beyond even their expectations. The game, at the end of the day, is as much of an RPG as The Witcher, arguably a little more so given it's combat and encounter design is more open to experimentation by the player.

It's about as experimental as sign builds from TW3 or spec'ing into alchemy. Yeah, so it's still not an RPG. There is no depth. As a lot of reviewers have said, it's as wide as an ocean and more shallow than a puddle.

 

[Silariell]

CDPR is a eurojank studio. Maybe not the jankiest, but it's still there. This is only their FOURTH major game, and their first was literally built off the back of a mod.

Some of the most fondly remembered games in history are jank games. Need I remind you of the grand daddy of cyberpunk on PC, Deus Ex? That game is jank incarnate, and yet people still play and replay it to this day. Another example is VTM Bloodlines (which is unfortunately going to get a shitty underwhelming sequel soon, made by a team that cares more for being woke than being 'fun'... ;/)

What makes a game good and memorable is honestly more esoteric than just 'polish polish polish until you're waving a red/white flag'. I heard it said that many of even the highest production value games suffer from one issue: They didn't find the 'fun'. What is 'fun'? Well... That's the tough part, isn't it?

I definitely think CP77 has a good -base- for a fun game, but it really does feel like an early access game. And unlike witcher 3 where most of the issues getting in the way of 'fun' were QOL, CP77 feels like it has gaping holes where 'fun' should be. The game feels like it's confused about what it wants to be. An open world sandbox with driving and shooting? A linear story driven game? They'll also add multiplayer ontop of that to further muddy the waters...

I do sincerely hope they manage to figure it out and unscramble what's 'fun' from what is not, but using 'its jank' as an excuse for why its bad is not a good argument. Jank can be -fun-, if you embrace it and design around it. That's how we got quake, garry's mod, and basically every roguelike / sandbox game.

 

[Ðarkstar]

Some of the most fondly remembered games in history are jank games. Need I remind you of the grand daddy of cyberpunk on PC, Deus Ex? That game is jank incarnate, and yet people still play and replay it to this day. Another example is VTM Bloodlines (which is unfortunately going to get a shitty underwhelming sequel soon, made by a team that cares more for being woke than being 'fun'... ;/)

What makes a game good and memorable is honestly more esoteric than just 'polish polish polish until you're waving a red/white flag'. I heard it said that many of even the highest production value games suffer from one issue: They didn't find the 'fun'. What is 'fun'? Well... That's the tough part, isn't it?

I definitely think CP77 has a good -base- for a fun game, but it really does feel like an early access game. And unlike witcher 3 where most of the issues getting in the way of 'fun' were QOL, CP77 feels like it has gaping holes where 'fun' should be. The game feels like it's confused about what it wants to be. An open world sandbox with driving and shooting? A linear story driven game? They'll also add multiplayer ontop of that to further muddy the waters...

I do sincerely hope they manage to figure it out and unscramble what's 'fun' from what is not, but using 'its jank' as an excuse for why its bad is not a good argument. Jank can be -fun-, if you embrace it and design around it. That's how we got quake, garry's mod, and basically every roguelike / sandbox game.

The Witcher 2 was more feature complete than CP2077 is. Doesn't matter what the definition of "Eurojank" is, they clearly just fucked up.

 

[Luther_Vandrass]

Again, excusing CDPR for misleading consumers and whitewashing the general consensus that this game is surprisingly mediocre isn't something people should be doing.

You want a better game right? Like the rest of us? So stop defending them.

Post automatically merged: Dec 15, 2020

It's about as experimental as sign builds from TW3 or spec'ing into alchemy. Yeah, so it's still not an RPG. There is no depth. As a lot of reviewers have said, it's as wide as an ocean and more shallow than a puddle.

First off, I'm not defending CDPR's actions, I'm referring to the people who are very clearly experiencing a fairly extreme emotional reaction bordering on the hysterical concerning this game. Marketing is marketing, PR speak is PR speak, it should be taken with a grain of salt, not at face value. And that's not even getting into the fact that this game was WAY too overhyped and the expectations were WAY too goddamn high. So much so that it seemed that many people never even took into consideration the idea that maybe, just maybe, CDPR wouldn't be able execute all this shit to the standard people had concocted in their head, they (the super fanboys) were just so caught up in the ideas and concepts that that fueled the fire alone.

Second, most AAA RPGs are as wide as an ocean and shallow as a puddle. Hell, a lot of RPGs are in general, just some are better at obscuring the wiring than others. Even more, most OPEN WORLD games are. So many RPGs are so goddamn easy to just break due to poor balancing alone. The wise mindset to take when it comes to games like this, currently, is the old adage "more than the sum of its parts", because dissecting individual systems and comparing them to systems in games that are essentially built entirely around those specific systems isn't going to be the most flattering of exercises.

That's why I knew from the beginning that even if CDPR somehow managed to implement all of these ideas, the game still wasn't necessarily gonna be the deepest RPG ever. It's too much ground to cover, too many systems to juggle and keep balanced while simultaneously having them successfully co-exist and play off of one another in a cohesive manner. It was gonna be a janky mess that was going to do a lot of things worse than other games that had already done them, but it was the amalgamation of these systems and the scope of it all that was going to make the game standout, and for the most part, the game does manage that somewhat successfully, it just could have been so much better.

There's still time for the game to end up more well-rounded then it is now for sure though.

Post automatically merged: Dec 16, 2020

Some of the most fondly remembered games in history are jank games. Need I remind you of the grand daddy of cyberpunk on PC, Deus Ex? That game is jank incarnate, and yet people still play and replay it to this day. Another example is VTM Bloodlines (which is unfortunately going to get a shitty underwhelming sequel soon, made by a team that cares more for being woke than being 'fun'... ;/)

What makes a game good and memorable is honestly more esoteric than just 'polish polish polish until you're waving a red/white flag'. I heard it said that many of even the highest production value games suffer from one issue: They didn't find the 'fun'. What is 'fun'? Well... That's the tough part, isn't it?

I definitely think CP77 has a good -base- for a fun game, but it really does feel like an early access game. And unlike witcher 3 where most of the issues getting in the way of 'fun' were QOL, CP77 feels like it has gaping holes where 'fun' should be. The game feels like it's confused about what it wants to be. An open world sandbox with driving and shooting? A linear story driven game? They'll also add multiplayer ontop of that to further muddy the waters...

I do sincerely hope they manage to figure it out and unscramble what's 'fun' from what is not, but using 'its jank' as an excuse for why its bad is not a good argument. Jank can be -fun-, if you embrace it and design around it. That's how we got quake, garry's mod, and basically every roguelike / sandbox game.

By jank, I'm referring to things such as the general feel of combat and hacking and the like. I don't think anyone should have reasonably expected those elements to be top of the line, at least if they didn't want to end up disappointed. I just wanted the systems to be more engaging and a little more than The Witcher 3 (including traversal) and I do think they were fairly successful at that, and could even make it better with some tweaks and rebalancing in the future.

 

[Rawls]

TW3 didn't have this plethora of cut content and thereby broken promises though which these forums are full to bursting off.

Ioverth and Saskia were totally gone from the game after being said in at one point in development. Major characters and arcs from the second game just totally gone and replaced with a few throw away lines by some elves outside of Novigrad. See here for full discussion. It was a whole thing.

TW3 didn't even remotely release *this* broken, and I know, having played it from Day 1 on PS4.

On PC it was pretty comparable to my recollection. Definitely agreed on consoles. My PS4 experience was also terrible. Glad I also got it on GOG. Waiting for my PS5 to fall from the amazonian heavens before jumping into the PS version again.

TW3 also didn't even remotely feel this extremely rushed, as CP2077 does.

I'm not sure what you mean by feels rushed. Most of the launch issues came up with optimization has been my general impression, when the story and content were mostly complete. Thus the multiple delays.

Even at launch, TW3's world didn't even remotely feel as devoid of life as Night City does.

Totally disagree. It feels like there is way more to do and see in Night City than there was in Novigrad/Velen/Skellige. Also a lot of the points of interest in TW3 were things like nekker nests or places of power or other relatively meaningless items. Night City feels much more interactive to me.

I love the Witcher 3. But it definitely had issues at launch. Many of which were fixed. Some of which never were. Saskia and Ioverth still aren't there. I still have a TW3 save where I can't finish my Wolven School gear quest due to a bug (grumbles). It just sits there in the quest log mocking me.

 

[Ðarkstar]

Totally disagree. It feels like there is way more to do and see in Night City than there was in Novigrad/Velen/Skellige. Also a lot of the points of interest in TW3 were things like nekker nests or places of power or other relatively meaningless items. Night City feels much more interactive to me.

Nekker nests = random crimes. Monster contracts = gigs (but with even less flavour).
It might take you a bit longer to figure out that Night City is emptier than Skellige.
Skellige was way prettier anyway and villager A.I was less jarring despite being the exact fucking same.

 

[Rawls]

Nekker nests = random crimes.

Except the random crimes are much more varied and IMO more interesting than nekker nests or packs of wolves.

Monster contracts = gigs (but with even less flavour).

I don't think they have less flavor in CP2077. I think the quest design & level design is very good for gigs. The stories are also interesting.

It might take you a bit longer to figure out that Night City is emptier than Skellige.

It's not though. We'll just agree to disagree.

 

[Guest 4406876]

TW3 wasn't nowhere near the situation that CP77 is. It's missing the game ITSELF, besides the bugs and the performance or the horrible UI. EVEN if they fix those things, the game will suck anyways. Just look at the damn AI that is nowehere coded in this game. Or the traffic, or the...I'm giving up honestly. I don't buy anything more or these heartwarming messages UNTIL I see the facts running on my pc LIVE and not scripted.

 

[Hiiraeth.]

The Witcher 2 was more feature complete than CP2077 is. Doesn't matter what the definition of "Eurojank" is, they clearly just fucked up.

TW2 was a mess for a long time. I remember when i completed the game in 800x600 windowed <30fps.
The game was extremely heavy for some reason and unoptimized. In terms of playability was worse than CP2077. They will learn and fix. The community of modders and developers is working already.

 

[alexanderkahn]

Do you really think they'll fix the A.I, the terrible police system, the hollow perks, the poor customisation, the empty world, poor driving mechanics, etc?
If they could've added all the "broken promise" features back into The Witcher 3 do you think they would've eventually done that? There was a hell of a lot more promised about Cyberpunk than TW3. A lot more anticipation, a lot more false marketing and a shit load of pre-launch reviews that seemed bizarrely paid off and not in tune with reality.

The Witcher 3's launch was a breeze in comparison. A lot of the rage surrounding it's release was muffled by people enjoying the game. I was one of the people on here that said "It sucks that it doesn't look as good as what was shown in the trailer but its fundamentally the same game and it plays like it should". Cyberpunk isn't that, it's the reverse - the people enjoying it are severely muffled by the people who are unhappy for a plethora of reasons and fundamentally it is in no way shape or form similar to what was shown in the trailers or what the developers talked about.

I still remember trawling the early threads on Cyberpunk about what features were planned and announced. So much shit about how faithfully it would recreate the pen & paper RPG. Well after 45 hours, it's blatantly obvious it isn't an RPG and I see nothing of what players were hyped about. For CDPR to truly fix their mistake they're going to need to make a completely new game from scratch.

The dev managers have already said that they are going to be sorting out the AI, NPC interactions (which likely includes the police system) as well as all the bugs and glitches in the patches and updates over the coming couple of months.

They have also said that things will get added in.

And I think this is something people forget about TW3.

Things that were cut late in development because they couldnt be completed by release were added back in via patches and free DLC (mostly the former rather than the latter) whilst everything else was fleshed out and perfected. It was one of the many reasons why TW3 is so loved and why CDPR got the reputation they did.

The technology actually is there, though. Even on older hardware it's there.
Ever played Red Dead Redemption 2?

Red Dead 2 is a bad example.

Most of Red Dead 2's map is empty wilderness with very few people about. The only large settlements you can see are mostly empty and far less busy than Night City in CP2077.

 

[Ultrafunktional]

Exactly, wait for the patchs. It is normal in nowadays.

 

[the_walkin_dude]

I've seen people make comparisons to games like GTAV and RDR2, but the sad fact is GTA San Andreas was more feature complete than Cyberpunk 2077 and it's a 16 year old game that was on a console less powerful than a modern phone.

 

[moonknightgog]

I've seen people make comparisons to games like GTAV and RDR2, but the sad fact is GTA San Andreas was more feature complete than Cyberpunk 2077 and it's a 16 year old game that was on a console less powerful than a modern phone.

To be honest San Andreas was more feature complete than GTA V

 

[Hiiraeth.]

I've seen people make comparisons to games like GTAV and RDR2, but the sad fact is GTA San Andreas was more feature complete than Cyberpunk 2077 and it's a 16 year old game that was on a console less powerful than a modern phone.

I agree but you also have to consider the number of devices, complexity of recent technologies, etc. We are in a transition of generations, we'll have a more stable releases in 2022+.
They should have worked only for next gen consoles.
I had a lot of bugs in GTA SA playing in PS2...the floor disappeared for some reason, sound bugs and problems with render. Despite that, the game was awesome and i didn't had any patch.

Post automatically merged: Dec 16, 2020

To be honest San Andreas was more feature complete than GTA V

GTA IV is the best.

 

[HMorisson]

Exactly, wait for the patchs. It is normal in nowadays.

It is only perceived as "normal" because players themselves somehow feel that it makes sense normalizing and whitewashing bad behaviour by publishers/studios.

It is neither normal nor okay nor acceptable in any way, shape or form to promise Product A and then deliver a vastly inferior Product B, with the notion that maybe in another half a year it might be anywhere near what it was promised to be at Launch.

You wouldn't buy a car missing its seats and windows, would you?
Even if the dealer promised you they would be fitted sometime within the next year?

The CP2077 we got on the 10th does not even remotely compare to what the Trailers, Night City Wire and the pre-release press events promised us — in fact there is a massive disparity here, as can be witnessed by anyone quite easily by simply browsing the "Technical"-forum.

And this isn't just coming from me.
Not only are there hundreds, if not thousands of people on these forums with the exact same complaints and worries, even the "professionals" are now slowly owning up to it, like GameStar.de for example, who've recently downgraded their rating and recalled the "Platinum Award" due to the state of the game after launch.

 

[the_walkin_dude]

I agree but you also have to consider the number of devices, complexity of recent technologies, etc. We are in a transition of generations, we'll have a more stable releases in 2022+.
They should have worked only for next gen consoles.
I had a lot of bugs in GTA SA playing in PS2...the floor disappeared for some reason, sound bugs and problems with render. Despite that, the game was awesome and i didn't had any patch.

One of the issues they would have had with working only with next gen consoles is that those next gen consoles didn't exist for at least 75% of Cyberpunk's development time. That's what's really mind boggling with the comically bad performance on last gen consoles is that those were the only consoles they could have been developing for up until a couple years ago at most when Sony and Microsoft told them "hey, we're finalizing the specs on our next consoles, here's what you'll have to work with."


Also, I am considering the complexity of recent technology, that was sort of my point. A game released in 2004 with much less complex technology managed to have more substance than Cyberpunk does. Better crowd/npc AI, better police AI, better wanted system, better handling for cars and other vehicles, character customization in the form of barber shops or eating a ton of junk food to make CJ fat, aircraft, etc, and all of that on a PS2. Sure it's ugly by today's standards (hell, it was kinda ugly by 2004 standards) but it had real substance in the gameplay and game world which Cyberpunk, unfortunately, does not.

I'm sure they'll iron out a lot of Cyberpunk's bugs and glitches over the next few months, but as many others have said in this thread, the bugs are the least of the game's problems.

 

[Mebrilia]

Also i find laughtable the people claiming this game has a lot of content. Yes it has a lot of "Clear bandit camps" sidequest activity follwed by "Take this and that" sidequest activity ma ultimately all is related to a one single thing.

"Pew Pew Pew"

And that's it. Calling this an RPG would be like calling Call of duty a game about Peace in the world.
Luckily other Devs of Other companies are rowing in the right directions something to thing about.

Bioware to justify the utter dumbing down of theyr rpgs were saying "What is an rpg?" yes the same catchy phrase often used to dismiss the fan of a genre of gaming that got a lot bastardized across the year.

The thing that shocks me is that i kinda seen Cd Projekt willing to row in the more traditional direction. Hoo i was so wrong.

Also witcher in many of the sidequest as many seem to forget even the ones that are supposed to be in this forum from a lot of time had multiple choice and even multuple outcome unlike cyberpunk that is just A-->B most of the time. Don't believe me?

You can determine on your choices if Kiera go in Khaer Moren,Died executed in Novigrad-Kill her yoursel.
You can as result of your choice have a whole village wiped out or just the children wiped out the baron surviving or not.
And i can go on and on,,

How about cyberpunk that was supposed to have an huge branching narrative?
*cricket sounds*

No really there is not excuse to defend all the lies we been feed and the state of the game.

 

[prime853]

Also i find laughtable the people claiming this game has a lot of content. Yes it has a lot of "Clear bandit camps" sidequest activity follwed by "Take this and that" sidequest activity ma ultimately all is related to a one single thing.

"Pew Pew Pew"

And that's it. Calling this an RPG would be like calling Call of duty a game about Peace in the world.
Luckily other Devs of Other companies are rowing in the right directions something to thing about.

Bioware to justify the utter dumbing down of theyr rpgs were saying "What is an rpg?" yes the same catchy phrase often used to dismiss the fan of a genre of gaming that got a lot bastardized across the year.

The thing that shocks me is that i kinda seen Cd Projekt willing to row in the more traditional direction. Hoo i was so wrong.

Also witcher in many of the sidequest as many seem to forget even the ones that are supposed to be in this forum from a lot of time had multiple choice and even multuple outcome unlike cyberpunk that is just A-->B most of the time. Don't believe me?

You can determine on your choices if Kiera go in Khaer Moren,Died executed in Novigrad-Kill her yoursel.
You can as result of your choice have a whole village wiped out or just the children wiped out the baron surviving or not.
And i can go on and on,,

How about cyberpunk that was supposed to have an huge branching narrative?
*cricket sounds*

No really there is not excuse to defend all the lies we been feed and the state of the game.

Nailed it.

its a barebones RPG at the most